Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten (Read 1037054 times)

JavaJones · « **Reply #675 on:** August 13, 2020, 06:16 PM »

That's an interesting take on the situation.
I share concerns about the professionalism of Roam's development. The offline enticement to believers through a PWA, risking data loss if cache is deleted before sync with the online database, just seemed the wrong way for the program to work.
But I hope it does well because a database has advantages that files don't - even if I prefer files for my own use.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM)

Are the advantages you're talking about really a distinction between "files" and "databases", or are they separate? I would suggest that in fact you can probably do all or most of what Roam does with "files", or at the least by adding a database *in addition to* the files (i.e. a database that manages the files/interconnections). Which is to say I don't think Roam has any kind of monopoly technologically on the benefits it purports, and Obsidian could replicate all or most with the will and the time put into dev. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

One is that he's just substantially expanded the team; I have no experience of development teams, but in other areas it's not unusual for it to take time to become productive rather than a drain on existing resources.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM)

Is there any evidence that he did, aside from the customer relations person I think he mentioned?

Hopefully they predicted this and had stuff like the pomodoro already up their sleeves to give an illusion of movement.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM)

Does that really track with your knowledge of how Conor has been operating though? That he would somehow develop something in advance but not release it just so he could then release it later to make it seem like there is progress happening during an otherwise slow period? Doesn't sound like it matches with what I've seen, at any rate.

The second is that a huge number of cultists are desperate to fiddle personally with the program. Mostly, it seems to me, because they have a drive to fiddle (enhanced by lockdowns) rather than a particular need.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM)

This is true and I have no problem with them doing so, in fact I think it's great. What I was pointing out here was that the RoamMonkey features were, for the most part, *really effing useful* and *should be in the core*. In fact Roam added a new feature a mere few days after that RoamMonkey vid was released which does something similar to the Template feature. It is more powerful than RoamMonkey templates, but unsurprisingly (because it's Roam and Conor) it's *harder and slower to use*. Anyway my point is that this is not someone fiddling just to fiddle, this is a smart person (RoamMonkey author) seeing *important* things missing from Roam and spending his time *as an amateur* to develop them externally.

This keeps them attached. Other programs like Trello have benefited hugely from third party enhancement. And I notice the building excitement in Obsidian over the near-term API release.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:33 AM)

Trello has an API, as you mention. Obsidian will also have an API. These are reasonable programs to develop for because they give you an appropriate channel to do so. Roam does not, yet. It lets you embed live-read CSS *and* javascript in its fricking pages! That's an insane risk, if I know anything about web tech security. And judging by my own experiences of massive slowdown in experimenting with CSS theming in Roam while the system tried to interpret what I was writing apparently in realtime, I think it's a crappy way to extend a system anyway. Even the RoamMonkey dev admits the fragility of some of the things he's built.

So it's great people have the enthusiasm and interest to build stuff for Roam. But I *don't* agree with Roam dev's decision to allow live interpretation of web languages within Roam DBs largely to enable this kind of hackery. I get that they probably wanted to encourage hackery and didn't want to have to wait for - or spend time on - a proper API at this stage. But I think it's irresponsible. I think there are a huge number of "cultists desperate to fiddle with Roam" because Conor is encouraging that, but I don't think he's doing so in a good way for a professional app.

Let me say one last thing which hopefully clarifies where I'm coming from. If this were a free - and especially open source - app; if this were something people could host on their own machines and expose themselves to the risks by individual choice; then I would have less concern with the "lack of professionalism" that I think Conor is exhibiting. But no, they're charging what is fairly clearly a premium for a hacky, messy system that, yes, is super cool, but also is developed largely at the whim of a potential egomaniac, and the community and his relationship to it is just feeding that. IMHO of course.

I get why people are excited to be a part of it, that very messiness has some exciting aspects. But people who have lost data have a more realistic view of it, and there is the potential that more data will be lost because sloppy devs and irresponsible management lead to things like that. If that does happen, hopefully people will see that it was questionable to put that much faith into the "roam cult" and Roam and its founders, because at the end of the day people are excited about doing real work, better work, and to do that you ideally need a reliable tool. Cool, new, and exciting only get you so far.

I'll take Obsidian's humble, experienced team approach any day.

- Oshyan

JavaJones · « **Reply #676 on:** August 13, 2020, 06:26 PM »

The boom in interest in both Roam and Obsidian, and various third-party stuff, is both good and bad. Good in that great things will probably come out of it. But bad in that things are still so much up in the air that we don't know how much these tools will change 6 months from now. So I still find it hard commit to either ATM, since which one (or other) I will prefer in the not so distant future probably depends on features not yet there or not yet refined. I'm kind of stuck in test drive mode
-Nod5 (August 13, 2020, 02:18 PM)

That's one advantage that Obsidian has over Roam; there's not much in the way of commitment since it sits on top of text files. I'm not currently using it though I maintain the same folder structure as when I did- so I can pick it back up if I desire at a later time.
-wraith808 (August 13, 2020, 04:32 PM)

I'm not clear that Roam is that much more of a commitment than Obsidian in that they are both based on Markdown and exportable to same, right? So yes, you might lose the proprietary features, the interlinking, transclusion, etc., that makes Roam cool, but you don't lose what you've written, or at least you don't have to (export it). Am I wrong on that?

- Oshyan

Dormouse · « **Reply #677 on:** August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM »

Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.

Everything written using Roam is contained in its database. It can be exported, but then it's no longer in Roam.

Obsidian's linking and transclusions can be duplicated at any point by programs that can interpret the same syntax and have similar functionality.

PS Roam's exports have to converted to be read in Obsidian.

Nod5 · « **Reply #678 on:** August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM »

You are together building the case for Obsidian for my particular use style and needs

One other strong consideration for me is that local plaintext files are very much easier to do stuff with from small AutoHotkey scripts for superspecific processing tasks, quick tweaks and more.

I hope that the Block Reference feature request discussed in their forum comes through. Specifically these thoughts are much in line with my brainstormed wishes for transclusion earlier here on DC. Such atomicity seems like a must have feature to me. But a challenge for Obsidian devs: how to implement that while staying with (1) plaintext files and (2) openness in the sense of plaintext files still being editable in other tools without a big clutter of long UID strings everywhere?

If (1) was the only requirement then the three level approach seems pretty straightforward: raw view, transclude view (resolve transcluded content, resolve UID strings as small icons, dots, color styling or some such) and preview view (fully resolved). Those who use transclude features would then spend most of their time writing in the mid-tier transclude view in Obsidian, but sometimes jump to raw view to fix issues. Obsidian and plug-ins would operate on the raw view data in the background.

But I can't think of a way to get convenient, reliable transclude atomicity in a set of every changing plaintext files without a paying a price re (2). Seems like something has to give. Bet: transclusion will prove so useful that Markdown syntax will be extended for it. Hopefully in a standardized way. NetCommonMark (Net as in networked notes) on the horizon? Once standardized other note apps would have similar transclude views so there would be less of an lock-in effect to the Obsidian editor.

panzer · « **Reply #679 on:** August 14, 2020, 04:09 AM »

How to Take Smart Notes: A Step-by-Step Guide:
https://www.natelias...com/blog/smart-notes

JavaJones · « **Reply #680 on:** August 14, 2020, 06:10 PM »

Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM)

I don't understand the point of that distinction. They don't need to be exported because they're *already* markdown, aren't they?

- Oshyan

JavaJones · « **Reply #681 on:** August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM »

But I can't think of a way to get convenient, reliable transclude atomicity in a set of every changing plaintext files without a paying a price re (2). Seems like something has to give. Bet: transclusion will prove so useful that Markdown syntax will be extended for it. Hopefully in a standardized way. NetCommonMark (Net as in networked notes) on the horizon? Once standardized other note apps would have similar transclude views so there would be less of an lock-in effect to the Obsidian editor.
-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)

I can't think of one either. IF you allow arbitrary programs to access *and* edit the data, then all bets are off, period. Unless, of course, those programs all support the same standards. And then it's questionable what value using different programs would have.

Atomicity and transclusion is completely compatible with file-based systems though, as far as I can see. It may have a performance overhead, but there is nothing stopping a tool like Obsidian from having a "working database" or sidecar XML files or whatever it needs to support those raw text files to have extra features like block references and transclusions, etc. There is a repeated distinction made here between "database" and "file based" in relation to things like references, network views, and other things, and I just don't see them being that related. Having everything in a DB may make it easier or faster to do certain things like transclusion (since in theory all text is dynamically generated from the DB in all cases). But as far as I can see a reasonable version of similar functionality can be created using offline, text-based systems with augmentation. If I'm wrong someone please explain it to me.

- Oshyan

Nod5 · « **Reply #682 on:** August 15, 2020, 02:49 AM »

Unless, of course, those programs all support the same standards. And then it's questionable what value using different programs would have.
-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM)

We could then use one specialized tool (Obsidian) most of the time, with all kinds of bells and whistles (graphs, complex search/filtering designed for the specific file format, ...) but now and then use some other tool (VS Code, AutoHotkey, ...) to access some files and do other operations or formatting on them.

There is a repeated distinction made here between "database" and "file based" ... But as far as I can see a reasonable version of similar functionality can be created using offline, text-based systems with augmentation.
-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM)

True

wraith808 · « **Reply #683 on:** August 15, 2020, 01:40 PM »

Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM)

I don't understand the point of that distinction. They don't need to be exported because they're *already* markdown, aren't they?

- Oshyan

-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:10 PM)

I think the distinction is that there is no need to export. With Roam, you're at their mercy if something happens to the service, which iss one of the reasons that I prefer to work on local plain text files.

panzer · « **Reply #684 on:** August 16, 2020, 02:48 PM »

How I use Obsidian to manage my goals, tasks, notes, and software development knowledge base:
https://joshwin.impr...pment-knowledge-base

panzer · « **Reply #685 on:** August 17, 2020, 02:13 PM »

How To Take Notes So Good They Become Your Second Brain:
https://hackernoon.c...econd-brain-yl4r3uhm

Dormouse · « **Reply #686 on:** August 17, 2020, 04:24 PM »

the three level approach seems pretty straightforward: raw view, transclude view (resolve transcluded content, resolve UID strings as small icons, dots, color styling or some such) and preview view (fully resolved).
-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)

Remember, Obsidian is heading for a WYSIWYG, Typora-like, editor. Raw will be an option, but preview will disappear.

Dormouse · « **Reply #687 on:** August 17, 2020, 04:39 PM »

Bet: transclusion will prove so useful that Markdown syntax will be extended for it. Hopefully in a standardized way. NetCommonMark (Net as in networked notes) on the horizon?
-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)

I'm not convinced. Too many blatantly obvious needs have never been addressed.
Obsidian is likely to be resistant to going far out on a limb, syntax-wise. Wikilinks are a growing standard in programs that use them, and Obsidian would probably go with a transclusion syntax if the other programs did too.

It's a fast moving space, I think there will be many more developments over the next few years.

Dormouse · « **Reply #688 on:** August 17, 2020, 04:43 PM »

Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM)

I don't understand the point of that distinction. They don't need to be exported because they're *already* markdown, aren't they?

- Oshyan

-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:10 PM)

I think the distinction is that there is no need to export. With Roam, you're at their mercy if something happens to the service, which iss one of the reasons that I prefer to work on local plain text files.
-wraith808 (August 15, 2020, 01:40 PM)

Yes.
Roam's markdown is in a database.

The other point is that Obsidian takes no ownership of the files, even when it's running and the vault is open. Many programs lock a file when it has been opened.

Dormouse · « **Reply #689 on:** August 17, 2020, 04:58 PM »

there is nothing stopping a tool like Obsidian from having a "working database" or sidecar XML files or whatever it needs to support those raw text files to have extra features like block references and transclusions, etc
-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM)

It would change the way the program worked.
Either you add multiple UIDs to the files (which can be done manually now), which makes reading the raw view harder, or you'd have to put them in a database equivalent which managed that outside of the file. The minute you do that, that database is needed as well as the files. Current process is that the files are loaded when a vault is opened, and that's all that's needed.

I imagine that someone may try to do what you suggest in a plugin when the API is published, but I don't see the developers doing it. I'm not sure how such a database would deal with files being added to the folder when Obsidian is closed.

Dormouse · « **Reply #690 on:** August 17, 2020, 06:35 PM »

There have been suggestions for Obsidian to support MMD, adding some desired functionality missing from GFM Commonmark. I'm not sure the developers would be keen to add yet another standard to comply with, but they could just add the elements they want.

panzer · « **Reply #691 on:** August 26, 2020, 03:09 PM »

My Productivity Stack: What Apps I Use for My Second Brain:
https://www.daltonma...s/productivity-stack

Dormouse · « **Reply #692 on:** August 26, 2020, 05:36 PM »

So Notion + Obsidian + Evernote + Things3 + iOS Reminders. Can't convince myself that keeping all those balls in the air at once is efficient. Reminders are specific, and so is Evernote providing he only uses it for OCR, but the others cover all tasks.

panzer · « **Reply #693 on:** August 27, 2020, 05:03 PM »

neutriNote: Markdown with Math in Just 3 MB:
https://play.google....ab.nano&hl=en_US

panzer · « **Reply #694 on:** August 30, 2020, 03:54 PM »

Octo - a markdown based notes app with hashtag organization:
https://octo.app

wraith808 · « **Reply #695 on:** August 30, 2020, 04:11 PM »

Octo - a markdown based notes app with hashtag organization:
https://octo.app
-panzer (August 30, 2020, 03:54 PM)

More information about it at https://github.com/voraciousdev/octo

Dormouse · « **Reply #696 on:** August 30, 2020, 05:24 PM »

There's also Amplenote

Imports from Evernote, Roam and Markdown. Exports Markdown.
Mostly advertising itself as a secure, encrypted alternative to Roam.
PWA app like Octo; I'm not massively keen on that myself.
Seems to be aimed at tasks and productivity notes, rather than notes in general.
Free trial but no free tier.
The blog is quite interesting.

JavaJones · « **Reply #697 on:** September 04, 2020, 06:05 PM »

Notion now has bi-directional links/references. It's pretty basic at present, but hopefully means they will put some more attention into this type of functionality.
https://twitter.com/.../1301478546792214528

- Oshyan

superboyac · « **Reply #698 on:** September 05, 2020, 12:55 AM »

There's also Amplenote

Imports from Evernote, Roam and Markdown. Exports Markdown.
Mostly advertising itself as a secure, encrypted alternative to Roam.
PWA app like Octo; I'm not massively keen on that myself.
Seems to be aimed at tasks and productivity notes, rather than notes in general.
Free trial but no free tier.
The blog is quite interesting.
-Dormouse (August 30, 2020, 05:24 PM)

geezus h christ almighty

will it ever end

Dormouse · « **Reply #699 on:** September 06, 2020, 04:43 AM »

There's also Amplenote
-Dormouse (August 30, 2020, 05:24 PM)
will it ever end
-superboyac (September 05, 2020, 12:55 AM)

Not for a couple of years I think.
To be fair to Amplenote, they've been going since last year, so predating Roam's popularity.

Most older apps will be looking to add similar functionality, without necessarily understanding how it would be used, and the new wave will be adding features.

My recommendation for users is to make a decision about database or files (or any combination according to preferred workflow), pick the app(s) that seem to suit best for now and then just use it(them). Check alternatives only when hitting an issue. They're all going to change and develop dramatically (some will vanish) and it will be easier to compare in a few years. Everyone is aware of what the others are doing, so the whole herd will add desirable features in a lagged sync.

Wiki-links have become standard. I expect that there will be a lot of pressure for markdown expansions to cover the new usage. I've already seen proposals to replace markdown completely. The new generation of users won't want to be adding HTML for simple features like underlining or colour.

I've noticed a huge proportion of Mac users on Obsidian boards - Linux too - and believe this is also true for Roam. Obsidian's developers use Windows. Not sure if this has any implications.

Also noticed that Dendron now has transclusions; not sure when it was added. I expect transclusion to be as pervasive as bidirectional links. I can see that having a big impact for Notion in particular.