Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten (Read 566732 times)

JavaJones · « **Reply #675 on:** August 13, 2020, 06:26 PM »

The boom in interest in both Roam and Obsidian, and various third-party stuff, is both good and bad. Good in that great things will probably come out of it. But bad in that things are still so much up in the air that we don't know how much these tools will change 6 months from now. So I still find it hard commit to either ATM, since which one (or other) I will prefer in the not so distant future probably depends on features not yet there or not yet refined. I'm kind of stuck in test drive mode
-Nod5 (August 13, 2020, 02:18 PM)

That's one advantage that Obsidian has over Roam; there's not much in the way of commitment since it sits on top of text files. I'm not currently using it though I maintain the same folder structure as when I did- so I can pick it back up if I desire at a later time.
-wraith808 (August 13, 2020, 04:32 PM)

I'm not clear that Roam is that much more of a commitment than Obsidian in that they are both based on Markdown and exportable to same, right? So yes, you might lose the proprietary features, the interlinking, transclusion, etc., that makes Roam cool, but you don't lose what you've written, or at least you don't have to (export it). Am I wrong on that?

- Oshyan

Dormouse · « **Reply #676 on:** August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM »

Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.

Everything written using Roam is contained in its database. It can be exported, but then it's no longer in Roam.

Obsidian's linking and transclusions can be duplicated at any point by programs that can interpret the same syntax and have similar functionality.

PS Roam's exports have to converted to be read in Obsidian.

Nod5 · « **Reply #677 on:** August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM »

You are together building the case for Obsidian for my particular use style and needs

One other strong consideration for me is that local plaintext files are very much easier to do stuff with from small AutoHotkey scripts for superspecific processing tasks, quick tweaks and more.

I hope that the Block Reference feature request discussed in their forum comes through. Specifically these thoughts are much in line with my brainstormed wishes for transclusion earlier here on DC. Such atomicity seems like a must have feature to me. But a challenge for Obsidian devs: how to implement that while staying with (1) plaintext files and (2) openness in the sense of plaintext files still being editable in other tools without a big clutter of long UID strings everywhere?

If (1) was the only requirement then the three level approach seems pretty straightforward: raw view, transclude view (resolve transcluded content, resolve UID strings as small icons, dots, color styling or some such) and preview view (fully resolved). Those who use transclude features would then spend most of their time writing in the mid-tier transclude view in Obsidian, but sometimes jump to raw view to fix issues. Obsidian and plug-ins would operate on the raw view data in the background.

But I can't think of a way to get convenient, reliable transclude atomicity in a set of every changing plaintext files without a paying a price re (2). Seems like something has to give. Bet: transclusion will prove so useful that Markdown syntax will be extended for it. Hopefully in a standardized way. NetCommonMark (Net as in networked notes) on the horizon? Once standardized other note apps would have similar transclude views so there would be less of an lock-in effect to the Obsidian editor.

panzer · « **Reply #678 on:** August 14, 2020, 04:09 AM »

How to Take Smart Notes: A Step-by-Step Guide:
https://www.natelias...com/blog/smart-notes

JavaJones · « **Reply #679 on:** August 14, 2020, 06:10 PM »

Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM)

I don't understand the point of that distinction. They don't need to be exported because they're *already* markdown, aren't they?

- Oshyan

JavaJones · « **Reply #680 on:** August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM »

But I can't think of a way to get convenient, reliable transclude atomicity in a set of every changing plaintext files without a paying a price re (2). Seems like something has to give. Bet: transclusion will prove so useful that Markdown syntax will be extended for it. Hopefully in a standardized way. NetCommonMark (Net as in networked notes) on the horizon? Once standardized other note apps would have similar transclude views so there would be less of an lock-in effect to the Obsidian editor.
-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)

I can't think of one either. IF you allow arbitrary programs to access *and* edit the data, then all bets are off, period. Unless, of course, those programs all support the same standards. And then it's questionable what value using different programs would have.

Atomicity and transclusion is completely compatible with file-based systems though, as far as I can see. It may have a performance overhead, but there is nothing stopping a tool like Obsidian from having a "working database" or sidecar XML files or whatever it needs to support those raw text files to have extra features like block references and transclusions, etc. There is a repeated distinction made here between "database" and "file based" in relation to things like references, network views, and other things, and I just don't see them being that related. Having everything in a DB may make it easier or faster to do certain things like transclusion (since in theory all text is dynamically generated from the DB in all cases). But as far as I can see a reasonable version of similar functionality can be created using offline, text-based systems with augmentation. If I'm wrong someone please explain it to me.

- Oshyan

Nod5 · « **Reply #681 on:** August 15, 2020, 02:49 AM »

Unless, of course, those programs all support the same standards. And then it's questionable what value using different programs would have.
-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM)

We could then use one specialized tool (Obsidian) most of the time, with all kinds of bells and whistles (graphs, complex search/filtering designed for the specific file format, ...) but now and then use some other tool (VS Code, AutoHotkey, ...) to access some files and do other operations or formatting on them.

There is a repeated distinction made here between "database" and "file based" ... But as far as I can see a reasonable version of similar functionality can be created using offline, text-based systems with augmentation.
-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM)

True

wraith808 · « **Reply #682 on:** August 15, 2020, 01:40 PM »

Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM)

I don't understand the point of that distinction. They don't need to be exported because they're *already* markdown, aren't they?

- Oshyan

-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:10 PM)

I think the distinction is that there is no need to export. With Roam, you're at their mercy if something happens to the service, which iss one of the reasons that I prefer to work on local plain text files.

panzer · « **Reply #683 on:** August 16, 2020, 02:48 PM »

How I use Obsidian to manage my goals, tasks, notes, and software development knowledge base:
https://joshwin.impr...pment-knowledge-base

panzer · « **Reply #684 on:** August 17, 2020, 02:13 PM »

How To Take Notes So Good They Become Your Second Brain:
https://hackernoon.c...econd-brain-yl4r3uhm

Dormouse · « **Reply #685 on:** August 17, 2020, 04:24 PM »

the three level approach seems pretty straightforward: raw view, transclude view (resolve transcluded content, resolve UID strings as small icons, dots, color styling or some such) and preview view (fully resolved).
-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)

Remember, Obsidian is heading for a WYSIWYG, Typora-like, editor. Raw will be an option, but preview will disappear.

Dormouse · « **Reply #686 on:** August 17, 2020, 04:39 PM »

Bet: transclusion will prove so useful that Markdown syntax will be extended for it. Hopefully in a standardized way. NetCommonMark (Net as in networked notes) on the horizon?
-Nod5 (August 14, 2020, 02:58 AM)

I'm not convinced. Too many blatantly obvious needs have never been addressed.
Obsidian is likely to be resistant to going far out on a limb, syntax-wise. Wikilinks are a growing standard in programs that use them, and Obsidian would probably go with a transclusion syntax if the other programs did too.

It's a fast moving space, I think there will be many more developments over the next few years.

Dormouse · « **Reply #687 on:** August 17, 2020, 04:43 PM »

Obsidian can't export to markdown because it doesn't contain the notes in the first place. The files have an independent existence and can be edited using any program at any time.
-Dormouse (August 13, 2020, 07:44 PM)

I don't understand the point of that distinction. They don't need to be exported because they're *already* markdown, aren't they?

- Oshyan

-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:10 PM)

I think the distinction is that there is no need to export. With Roam, you're at their mercy if something happens to the service, which iss one of the reasons that I prefer to work on local plain text files.
-wraith808 (August 15, 2020, 01:40 PM)

Yes.
Roam's markdown is in a database.

The other point is that Obsidian takes no ownership of the files, even when it's running and the vault is open. Many programs lock a file when it has been opened.

Dormouse · « **Reply #688 on:** August 17, 2020, 04:58 PM »

there is nothing stopping a tool like Obsidian from having a "working database" or sidecar XML files or whatever it needs to support those raw text files to have extra features like block references and transclusions, etc
-JavaJones (August 14, 2020, 06:14 PM)

It would change the way the program worked.
Either you add multiple UIDs to the files (which can be done manually now), which makes reading the raw view harder, or you'd have to put them in a database equivalent which managed that outside of the file. The minute you do that, that database is needed as well as the files. Current process is that the files are loaded when a vault is opened, and that's all that's needed.

I imagine that someone may try to do what you suggest in a plugin when the API is published, but I don't see the developers doing it. I'm not sure how such a database would deal with files being added to the folder when Obsidian is closed.

Dormouse · « **Reply #689 on:** August 17, 2020, 06:35 PM »

There have been suggestions for Obsidian to support MMD, adding some desired functionality missing from GFM Commonmark. I'm not sure the developers would be keen to add yet another standard to comply with, but they could just add the elements they want.

panzer · « **Reply #690 on:** August 26, 2020, 03:09 PM »

My Productivity Stack: What Apps I Use for My Second Brain:
https://www.daltonma...s/productivity-stack

Dormouse · « **Reply #691 on:** August 26, 2020, 05:36 PM »

So Notion + Obsidian + Evernote + Things3 + iOS Reminders. Can't convince myself that keeping all those balls in the air at once is efficient. Reminders are specific, and so is Evernote providing he only uses it for OCR, but the others cover all tasks.

panzer · « **Reply #692 on:** August 27, 2020, 05:03 PM »

neutriNote: Markdown with Math in Just 3 MB:
https://play.google....ab.nano&hl=en_US

panzer · « **Reply #693 on:** August 30, 2020, 03:54 PM »

Octo - a markdown based notes app with hashtag organization:
https://octo.app

wraith808 · « **Reply #694 on:** August 30, 2020, 04:11 PM »

Octo - a markdown based notes app with hashtag organization:
https://octo.app
-panzer (August 30, 2020, 03:54 PM)

More information about it at https://github.com/voraciousdev/octo

Dormouse · « **Reply #695 on:** August 30, 2020, 05:24 PM »

There's also Amplenote

Imports from Evernote, Roam and Markdown. Exports Markdown.
Mostly advertising itself as a secure, encrypted alternative to Roam.
PWA app like Octo; I'm not massively keen on that myself.
Seems to be aimed at tasks and productivity notes, rather than notes in general.
Free trial but no free tier.
The blog is quite interesting.

JavaJones · « **Reply #696 on:** September 04, 2020, 06:05 PM »

Notion now has bi-directional links/references. It's pretty basic at present, but hopefully means they will put some more attention into this type of functionality.
https://twitter.com/.../1301478546792214528

- Oshyan

superboyac · « **Reply #697 on:** September 05, 2020, 12:55 AM »

There's also Amplenote

Imports from Evernote, Roam and Markdown. Exports Markdown.
Mostly advertising itself as a secure, encrypted alternative to Roam.
PWA app like Octo; I'm not massively keen on that myself.
Seems to be aimed at tasks and productivity notes, rather than notes in general.
Free trial but no free tier.
The blog is quite interesting.
-Dormouse (August 30, 2020, 05:24 PM)

geezus h christ almighty

will it ever end

Dormouse · « **Reply #698 on:** September 06, 2020, 04:43 AM »

There's also Amplenote
-Dormouse (August 30, 2020, 05:24 PM)
will it ever end
-superboyac (September 05, 2020, 12:55 AM)

Not for a couple of years I think.
To be fair to Amplenote, they've been going since last year, so predating Roam's popularity.

Most older apps will be looking to add similar functionality, without necessarily understanding how it would be used, and the new wave will be adding features.

My recommendation for users is to make a decision about database or files (or any combination according to preferred workflow), pick the app(s) that seem to suit best for now and then just use it(them). Check alternatives only when hitting an issue. They're all going to change and develop dramatically (some will vanish) and it will be easier to compare in a few years. Everyone is aware of what the others are doing, so the whole herd will add desirable features in a lagged sync.

Wiki-links have become standard. I expect that there will be a lot of pressure for markdown expansions to cover the new usage. I've already seen proposals to replace markdown completely. The new generation of users won't want to be adding HTML for simple features like underlining or colour.

I've noticed a huge proportion of Mac users on Obsidian boards - Linux too - and believe this is also true for Roam. Obsidian's developers use Windows. Not sure if this has any implications.

Also noticed that Dendron now has transclusions; not sure when it was added. I expect transclusion to be as pervasive as bidirectional links. I can see that having a big impact for Notion in particular.

JavaJones · « **Reply #699 on:** September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM »

My recommendation for users is to make a decision about database or files (or any combination according to preferred workflow), pick the app(s) that seem to suit best for now and then just use it(them). Check alternatives only when hitting an issue. They're all going to change and develop dramatically (some will vanish) and it will be easier to compare in a few years. Everyone is aware of what the others are doing, so the whole herd will add desirable features in a lagged sync.
-Dormouse (September 06, 2020, 04:43 AM)

While I agree with your overall point, again I think this DB or files thing may be a false dichotomy, at least for many people. I've yet to see a compelling real-world example of specific, practical workflows that would necessitate "files" that have no DB component. I think you may feel strongly that your own workflows demonstrate this, so I'd love to hear some examples of how you intend to (or already do) work this way and what significant advantages it brings you (vs. for example an Obsidian plugin that does the same thing as some external tool you use directly on files).

In other words I think there are other ways to achieve/solve the feature/functionality desires you have that make you want to work with "files", while still having nothing to do with a files vs. DB distinction. Whether you want to accept whatever sacrifices that might entail, such as having to pay for an Obsidian plugin for example, is another matter.

I do however think there is a very clear and important distinction between cloud/SaaS (Roam, Notion) and desktop/offline, perhaps with optional cloud sync (Obsidian, Anytype). *That* to me seems the more important choice to make since all of these systems pretty much import and export various flavors of markdown.

- Oshyan