topbanner_forum
  *

avatar image

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
  • Wednesday October 28, 2020, 3:53 am
  • Proudly celebrating 15+ years online.
  • Donate now to become a lifetime supporting member of the site and get a non-expiring license key for all of our programs.
  • donate

Last post Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten  (Read 110382 times)

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #725 on: September 17, 2020, 05:23 AM »
localization. Does Obsidian have that yet?
Yes, and increasing. Doesn't have the same level of need as some of the others, since they are just documents, so no relevance for quantities etc.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #726 on: September 17, 2020, 05:25 AM »
Roam Research valued at $200m in a fund raise where it took $9m outside investment.

JavaJones

  • Review 2.0 Designer
  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,735
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #727 on: September 17, 2020, 06:06 PM »
Notion officially launched their backlink features today. Still needs some work, but I think it might be enough to let me put more of my stuff in Notion vs. Roam/Obsidian/Logseq/whatever. In particular things that work well with databases like regular reviews, recipes, media lists (books to read/read with notes, TV to watch/watching notes, etc.).
https://twitter.com/.../1306677709263630336

- Oshyan

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #728 on: September 17, 2020, 08:39 PM »
May be enough to stop some users switching to Roam.

But I don't think it will be many. Roam is quite expensive (money, learning, curve, need for regular use) for someone to use as well. And Notion does many things Roam doesn't, so not a good replacement for those who use those things. Roam has a clear idea of what it's trying to do and I doubt Notion can duplicate its ability to do that which leaves people wanting that switching anyway.

What it does do, is free its users from backlink envy.

panzer

  • Participant
  • Joined in 2008
  • *
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 884
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 10,713
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #730 on: September 18, 2020, 08:05 AM »
Roam vs. Notion:
https://threader.app.../1306722418786881536

You see who that is by, right?  Of course if the creator of Roam talks about Notion, it will be in a deprecating manner.  Always check the source...!  He has major beef with Notion because they didn't want to collaborate, crowing over things that were preceded in other applications.


https://twitter.com/.../1306724750060912642
« Last Edit: September 18, 2020, 08:17 AM by wraith808 »

JavaJones

  • Review 2.0 Designer
  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,735
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #731 on: September 18, 2020, 06:08 PM »
Roam vs. Notion:
https://threader.app.../1306722418786881536

You see who that is by, right?  Of course if the creator of Roam talks about Notion, it will be in a deprecating manner.  Always check the source...!  He has major beef with Notion because they didn't want to collaborate, crowing over things that were preceded in other applications.

https://twitter.com/.../1306724750060912642


Exactly. And this is a big reason Conor does not impress me as a founder. He's petty, vain, impulsive, and egotistical. Look at the way he interacts on Twitter and elsewhere vs. someone like Phil Libin (co-founder of Evernote).

Notion's community engagement isn't much better, depending on your perspective. It's a lot more personable, but at lot less "real" at the same time. There is lots of "Good idea! We'll add it to our request list" and whatnot. But virtually zero understanding of whether that means any damn thing, what the priority of any given feature is, or even what the broad strokes vision is of what Notion is trying to accomplish and how they're actually going to continue achieving it. But I do like their design. ;)

- Oshyan

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #732 on: September 18, 2020, 07:53 PM »
And this is a big reason Conor does not impress me as a founder. He's petty, vain, impulsive, and egotistical.
Gates
Jobs
Ellison
Zuckerberg
They don't do badly for ticks, and could add a few of their own.
You don't need to remind people of who they are, and nor have they been replaced.

panzer

  • Participant
  • Joined in 2008
  • *
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 884
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #733 on: September 20, 2020, 02:04 AM »

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #734 on: September 20, 2020, 03:34 AM »
It's  not his first podcast advocating Roam.

Strange thing is that you could achieve the same thing in Obsidian just as easily. There are things that work easier in Roam but he didn't hit on one of them this time.

There's a tendency for people trying to switch from Roam (usually because of cost, sometimes irritation) to try to carry their workflow with them. Most frequently blocks, but it includes a rigid concept of a page. Most of them have little concern about having their life's work in an online database that is specifically targeting collaboration and sharing ideas - so the genuine advantages of Obsidian etc pass them by.

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 10,713
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #735 on: September 20, 2020, 11:56 AM »
Strange thing is that you could achieve the same thing in Obsidian just as easily.

Yeah, he lost me with this as the very thing he was crowing about I use all the time.

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,285
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #736 on: September 20, 2020, 02:06 PM »
Roam Research valued at $200m in a fund raise where it took $9m outside investment.
WHOA!!!

panzer

  • Participant
  • Joined in 2008
  • *
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 884
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #737 on: September 20, 2020, 02:13 PM »
Note taking tools are the new oil.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #738 on: September 20, 2020, 04:31 PM »
WHOA
You have to remember that no-one actually thinks it's worth $200m.
You have a group of investors placing a $9m bet that it will actually be worth a lot more. With Roam's owners trying to give away as little as possible in exchange for circa $10 m.

The key to the price was the success of the believers scheme and $15 a month subscription.

What happens next will depend on how successfully Roam deploy the money.
First steps seem to be teams (collaborations) and an API.

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 10,713
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #739 on: September 20, 2020, 05:53 PM »
You have to remember that no-one actually thinks it's worth $200m.

Agreed.  They don't release their revenue statements, the standard valuation of a company is 4 times revenue, and they aren't making $50m a year.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #740 on: September 20, 2020, 06:04 PM »
the standard valuation of a company is 4 times revenue, and they aren't making $50m a year.
That very much depends on the company and prospects (and a host of other things).
Look at the current value of Snowflake
« Last Edit: September 20, 2020, 06:13 PM by Dormouse »

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,285
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #741 on: September 20, 2020, 06:20 PM »
WHOA
You have to remember that no-one actually thinks it's worth $200m.
You have a group of investors placing a $9m bet that it will actually be worth a lot more. With Roam's owners trying to give away as little as possible in exchange for circa $10 m.

The key to the price was the success of the believers scheme and $15 a month subscription.

What happens next will depend on how successfully Roam deploy the money.
First steps seem to be teams (collaborations) and an API.
AH!  thanks, yes that is revealing.
The thing they are investing in is the feature users want the least, at least users like us.
I feel like the logic is:
Many of us want something where our files are agnostic.  Hence markdown text files.
But for the business to work, it needs to be subscription.
But that probably means agnostic files is not going to be a primary feature.
So then it better have some other great features, which it does.
But is that enough to get people to give subscription money?
Not necessarily, because the whole point was to get an agnostic system.  It's not like we were looking for these new features initially.  Otherwise, if we don't care about the files, we can use any number of systems with cool features.  The whole things counter-productive to me.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #742 on: September 20, 2020, 07:24 PM »
I don't know.
For my money, now that it has its foot in the door, I think it will get to being a $ billion company.

Conor has a vision, he's good at convincing people. I think the vision centres on collaborative and shared development of human knowledge. But he (wisely) keeps detailed ideas to himself.

The thing they are investing in is the feature users want the least, at least users like us.
I don't think he has any significant interest in users who are interested in files. Or markdown. He's interested in knowledge and believes it is built better by people sharing (and I'd have to say there's any number of Obsidian users who just want to put their vaults on the web). I think he's aiming at being the primary host for that endeavour.

And, shorter term, teams are good for revenue - corporates will pay a lot more than individuals who are mostly good for creating the buzz. Look at the Trello and Notion business models. And their valuations.

At this point, I'd be more interested in investing in Roam than using it myself. I have concerns about some of things Conor says and does - but that's never held Elon back.

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 10,713
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #743 on: September 20, 2020, 08:12 PM »
the standard valuation of a company is 4 times revenue, and they aren't making $50m a year.
That very much depends on the company and prospects (and a host of other things).
Look at the current value of Snowflake

That's why I said standard.  Even with variations, they wouldn't be worth that much.


For my money, now that it has its foot in the door, I think it will get to being a $ billion company.

I have my doubts about that.  It might come in somewhere at the 100s of millions, but I don't think $ billion is in the cards.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #744 on: September 20, 2020, 09:17 PM »
It might come in somewhere at the 100s of millions
Already there.
Notion is at $2bn.
Trello was sold to Atlassian for $425m over 3 years ago. Tech valuations have rocketed since then.
Evernote reached $1bn in 2011 before it took its eye off the ball.

Conor's vision is a big one. It will either reach over $1bn or crash. The odds being on crashing which is why the current valuation is only $200m. I'm certain all the investors believe it has a reasonable chance of reaching the billions, because the reward would not balance the risks otherwise.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #745 on: September 24, 2020, 10:03 AM »
I've added a new room - Chapter House
For 'business' related notes and documents: todo lists, etc. Anything that requires an action. When documents are no longer current they will be filed away in the library.

(Not work related stuff; that goes in a separate building, Canary Wharf. In practice most real work related stuff is confidential,  and goes into a separate secure location.)

The Chapter House in a monastery was a very large room where they had daily meetings, allocated jobs etc. All the tedious stuff. The one in my local Cathedral is a pretty spectacular space.

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 10,713
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #746 on: September 24, 2020, 10:21 AM »
It might come in somewhere at the 100s of millions
Already there.


Eh... I'd dispute that figure above, which is why I don't really count it as already there currently.

panzer

  • Participant
  • Joined in 2008
  • *
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 884
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #747 on: September 24, 2020, 10:32 AM »
Back in the day valuations made sense, but not anymore since central banks are pumping money into economy like crazy.

Tesla is worth 360 billion $ and it only made its first profit this year.

Madness.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #748 on: September 24, 2020, 11:20 AM »
I'd dispute that figure above, which is why I don't really count it as already there currently
Why would you dispute it?

It ought to be a simple calculation. Investors paying $9m for ? = $200m valuation means ?  = 4.5% of the enterprise, post investment. Always possible it was actually $9m for 5% of the business as it was, in which case the calculation ought to have been (9x20)+9 = 189 which is still pretty close.
Not seen anything about other conditions, options etc though I'd expect there are some. But it's hard cash he's already spending.

You can't get a better test of value than people paying hard cash for something.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,615
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #749 on: September 24, 2020, 11:36 AM »
Back in the day valuations made sense
Valuations have never made sense, they're simply transactional. The point at which buyers and sellers are prepared to meet.
Tesla is worth 360 billion $ and it only made its first profit this year.

Madness.
Hmm. This is tougher.  The volatility in Tesla's price (up and down), plus the relatively low level of free stock implies that it would be more accurate to calculate a valuation range.

There's huge disagreement about it as a business. I know a number of investors who were heavily shorting the stock when the price was a fraction of the present price. Most got out on one of the dips (therefore with some profit) or when they realised they might never be proved right (loss) or some facts changed (manufacturing targets met - also a loss).
As Keynes said, the market can remain irrational for longer than you can remain solvent.