Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten (Read 497610 times)

superboyac · « **Reply #850 on:** November 19, 2020, 12:04 PM »

Just out of curiosity …

What are people doing with all this information they’re curating and cataloging with these various pieces of software? To what purpose? Or maybe even: to what avail?

I’m more curious about the individual “business” use cases rather than the supporting technology. Technology and solutions that offer varying degrees of utility aren’t that difficult to run down. God knows there’s tons of software out there. But the reasons to employ said technology can sometimes be less obvious. At least to me.

So help me out. What is/are your goal(s). What’s it all for? What are you guys doing with all this information you’re gathering?
-40hz (November 14, 2020, 10:58 AM)

40....
When I learned about this, the thing that intrigued me the most was how prolific that Lurhman guy was due to using this system. Prolific in terms of churning out books. I also want to continue writing books, so that is my end goal. I remember writing my first set of books how annoying and time=consuming/frustrating it was to organize everything, and then once organized, even keeping track of your thoughts and notes and edits, etc. So the idea of using a system such as this to capture your thoughts and then later to recover it and put quickly together in long-form or book form, is the ultimate goal for me.

I've been an unorganized notetaker for many many years, most of my life. But their all over the place. If I wanted to put something together based on my thoughts, I have to search and find everything, then reread it (because they are long and disjointed), then re-understand my original points, then organize, then edit. Supposedly, this allows us to skip all that once the "zettels" are created and its just a matter of following each zettel (which should already be concise and easy to read/understand) and they are already linked, so you can just churn out books...theoretically.

Now, in practice, much of the last 2 years of the exercise was just to see if this even works with the software and tools etc. Nothing really "took" for me until i saw that software Neuron that I am loving. And the thing there was that it syncs with my local files and presents a very nice looking website instantly with everything there. The softwares technically do the same, but something about the aesthetic of neuron really is working for me.

So now I am just writing away, and hopefully some nice books will come out of it.

Business wise, I don't see many applications. Would employees really use such a tool? Not really. Even if they were research oriented, it still takes a rare kind of dedication to use it all (the markdown, the linking, the curating) it's all very rare. Maybe if the system could be more automated somehow, but still, I struggle to find a good application. Actually, in the neuron forum, one of the users presented it to a company, and he said there wasn't much interest at all, lol.

What's wrong with us? Why do we write and write and curate and write? I don't know, might be a mental problem.

Dormouse · « **Reply #851 on:** November 19, 2020, 02:37 PM »

Why do we write and write and curate and write?
-superboyac (November 19, 2020, 12:04 PM)

Virtually all the money I've ever earned has depended on my writing. Curating too.

wraith808 · « **Reply #852 on:** November 19, 2020, 03:11 PM »

Why do we write and write and curate and write?
-superboyac (November 19, 2020, 12:04 PM)
Virtually all the money I've ever earned has depended on my writing. Curating too.
-Dormouse (November 19, 2020, 02:37 PM)

I'm not in that position, but I've made quite the bit of side hustle money with my writing.

Dormouse · « **Reply #853 on:** November 19, 2020, 03:44 PM »

I've now established that deleting (or moving) contents of ObsidianCache has no effect on Obsidian's memory for the existence of previously opened vaults or their location. They still open as normal (presumably recreating the ObsidianCache file from the files).

Changing the name of the Vault folder loses the memory of that vault and changing it back after Obsidian has been closed does not restore it. Presumably one of the other cache files stores names and locations of available vaults from the last session, and there's a check for their continued existence.

So deleting the vaults I want to keep secure from ObsidianCache should be sufficient for my purpose.
Only aggravation is having to check individually the cache names against the vault names.
Assuming I understand what's going on well enough.

wraith808 · « **Reply #854 on:** November 19, 2020, 05:38 PM »

Could you perhaps post your thoughts on some Obsidian forum to see if someone can validate your approach?

40hz · « **Reply #855 on:** November 20, 2020, 09:01 AM »

What's wrong with us? Why do we write and write and curate and write? I don't know, might be a mental problem.
-superboyac (November 19, 2020, 12:04 PM)

LOL! I suspect that of myself sometimes. More often than I’d like actually. One professor described my “problem” as an “aspiration to achieve omniscience.”

I eventually gave up on trying to create an artifact and just constructed a classic memory palace for myself. Something I’ve since stopped worrying about externalizing for posterity. But I find the software based approach some are taking as
incredibly interesting just the same.

Dormouse · « **Reply #856 on:** November 20, 2020, 04:05 PM »

“aspiration to achieve omniscience.”
-40hz (November 20, 2020, 09:01 AM)

Nothing wrong with that. Just one end of a spectrum. The better end usually.
With total ignorance being the midpoint, and being wrong about everything at the other end.
Life makes it hard for anyone to maintain a comfortable ignorance, which leaves you with a choice of directions.

Dormouse · « **Reply #857 on:** November 20, 2020, 04:41 PM »

Could you perhaps post your thoughts on some Obsidian forum to see if someone can validate your approach?
-wraith808 (November 19, 2020, 05:38 PM)

With any particular outcome in mind?

Problem is that the Obsidian forums aren't great at analysis.
And this is an issue only to a tiny minority (possibly only me).
I would have expected more informed responses when I first raised the issue if more informed responses were to be had. And no comment from developers at all.
I have a few more tests to do, and recheck on the latest version, and then I'll probably put a small post on the forum in case anyone else is ever interested.

I mentioned it here as a follow-on to my post explaining my change of direction, to indicate that there were simpler methods of managing it. Certainly it makes it easier for me to continue using Obsidian for most notes, but does nothing to move me from Frankenstein.

Which had advantages anyway. I worked out how to do multi-coloured highlights in markdown fairly easily, but simply using RTF is easier still and it is only a temporary stage for me, not the final document. At some point, I'm sure someone will come up with a better form of plaintext for the average word processor user. It will give up document management and document styling features (the latter are rarely used by most, and the former are little used by the average user) ave but keep the text control and styling. It will give up code blocks. Maybe it will be called marktext.

panzer · « **Reply #858 on:** November 20, 2020, 05:10 PM »

Using Obsidian with Termux and VIM:
https://www.thegadhi...with-termux-and-vim/

wraith808 · « **Reply #859 on:** November 20, 2020, 06:46 PM »

With any particular outcome in mind?

-Dormouse (November 20, 2020, 04:41 PM)

I was thinking that it would help you to know where you stand, and if you were covering all your bases with your approach. But if they are less than helpful, I can see why you'd not do that.

40hz · « **Reply #860 on:** November 21, 2020, 09:56 AM »

I'm sure someone will come up with a better form of plaintext for the average word processor user. It will give up document management and document styling features (the latter are rarely used by most, and the former are little used by the average user) ave but keep the text control and styling. It will give up code blocks. Maybe it will be called marktext.
-Dormouse (November 20, 2020, 04:41 PM)

I don’t think it would require an entirely new plaintext format. I suspect it could be adequately handled by XML. The real challenge would be establishing the schema and taxonomies. The mechanics and details of the markup itself aren’t the issue. It’s the meta framework that represents the real work to be done.

Kinda like the old joke about how employing a computer and database for your average problem is often like hitting a fly with a 20-lb sledgehammer. Easy enough on the face of it - except for the part about how to get the fly to land.

Dormouse · « **Reply #861 on:** November 22, 2020, 04:08 PM »

I suspect it could be adequately handled by XML
-40hz (November 21, 2020, 09:56 AM)

If XML were a contender markdown et freres would never have been invented.

The number of commands most people need is small, it's just that markdown doesn't include them all, and some of its choices are distinctly odd and hard to use. Apart from other features which presumably fitted Gruber's original idea of purpose and target users, but aren't wanted by most WP users.

wraith808 · « **Reply #862 on:** November 22, 2020, 04:37 PM »

I suspect it could be adequately handled by XML
-40hz (November 21, 2020, 09:56 AM)
If XML were a contender markdown et freres would never have been invented.

The number of commands most people need is small, it's just that markdown doesn't include them all, and some of its choices are distinctly odd and hard to use. Apart from other features which presumably fitted Gruber's original idea of purpose and target users, but aren't wanted by most WP users.
-Dormouse (November 22, 2020, 04:08 PM)

Yeah, that was my thought too. The few that do use a plain text format other than markdown (and sometimes in conjunction with markdown) use json or protobuf that I've seen.

BGM · « **Reply #863 on:** December 04, 2020, 10:09 AM »

Have we mentioned Zettlr yet?
https://www.zettlr.com/download/win32

It is a notebook app with markdown designed for writers.
I haven't tried it yet, but I've downloaded it and plan to preview it. (I'm still using TreeDBNotes because I've never found a suitable replacement)

superboyac · « **Reply #864 on:** December 04, 2020, 12:44 PM »

Have we mentioned Zettlr yet?
https://www.zettlr.com/download/win32

It is a notebook app with markdown designed for writers.
I haven't tried it yet, but I've downloaded it and plan to preview it. (I'm still using TreeDBNotes because I've never found a suitable replacement)
-BGM (December 04, 2020, 10:09 AM)

Oh yes, discussed a lot. I prefer using Zettlr to write my content, fyi. And then I prefer Obsidian to navigate my content. And ultimately, I prefer Neuron to display my content on a website.

panzer · « **Reply #865 on:** December 04, 2020, 03:41 PM »

Zettelkasten for Indie Devs and Product Managers:
https://blog.notepla...ttelkasten-for-devs/

Dormouse · « **Reply #866 on:** December 04, 2020, 07:08 PM »

I'm still using TreeDBNotes
-BGM (December 04, 2020, 10:09 AM)

TreeDBNotes is very different to all of these, so you'd probably need to have decided to move on. And if that's your starting point, you'll know what you want to keep and what you'd like to add.

Dormouse · « **Reply #867 on:** December 04, 2020, 07:15 PM »

I prefer using Zettlr to write my content,
-superboyac (December 04, 2020, 12:44 PM)

I'm often not very fussed about what I actually write in. Sometimes my choice will depend on a feature I want for that particular use.
For instance folding (which I use a lot):
Typora doesn't seem to have it;
Zettlr is better (headings);
Obsidian is better still (headings and outlines)
and WriteMonkey is best (no obvious limitation).
I admit I might have missed a use somewhere above - I've not tested in detail, just what I've found in use.

Dormouse · « **Reply #868 on:** December 04, 2020, 07:24 PM »

One huge issue for me, having many files, is the whole file explorer set up. None of these programs are great. Obsidian possibly best because it has the greatest variety of ways of finding files (folder, search, tags, regex, graph), but convenience in everyday use is important.

Another issue is how well the editor/program integrates into a system where there are many types of files. Again I don't think any of them are great for doing this.

Nod5 · « **Reply #869 on:** December 05, 2020, 04:01 AM »

Another issue is how well the editor/program integrates into a system where there are many types of files. Again I don't think any of them are great for doing this.
-Dormouse (December 04, 2020, 07:24 PM)

Yeah, there is a lot of friction to overcome there. I have an AutoHotkey script setup: I put no-markup filepaths or filenames in the plaintext notes. Later I select a whole or part of such a string (or put the cursor inside it) and press a hotkey. The script detects if there is a unique file anywhere matching the string pattern and takes action depending on filetype. E.g. open PDF in pdf viewer, open source code file in VS Code and so on. If multiple files match action alternatives are shown. If no file is matched alternatives to open up a file search in Everything or do a Google search are shown. Since this works on any text selection anywhere I can use the same approach across different apps, local or web based. For example I use it also in notes written in Google Docs, in effect links from Docs to the local filesystem. I considered making it a NANY tool this year but the thing is still evolving and is very tied to my own note taking setup and how I tend to use the target files, so difficult to make into a more general application yet. But I think this kind of customizable inbetween tool is the best option, since it is unlikely that any specific note taking app will also be a best fit for how you want to deal with various other types of files.

Dormouse · « **Reply #870 on:** December 07, 2020, 08:12 PM »

I prefer Obsidian to navigate my content
-superboyac (December 04, 2020, 12:44 PM)

Which features of Obsidian do you use when navigating?

superboyac · « **Reply #871 on:** December 31, 2020, 12:27 AM »

I prefer Obsidian to navigate my content
-superboyac (December 04, 2020, 12:44 PM)
Which features of Obsidian do you use when navigating?
-Dormouse (December 07, 2020, 08:12 PM)

For navigating, I basically use the sidebar where the files are listed, and the graph webbing view. I like the graph view, but can't really say I use it too much. I look at it there to see how things are connected. However, neuron has a view as a tree hierarchy that does another kind of similar view which I like better.

BGM · « **Reply #872 on:** December 31, 2020, 08:41 AM »

Is there a way in obsidian to get a toolbar for markup? I hate remembering all the markup codes and tricks. I also love toolbars. I'm checking out obisidian right now, but the lack of toolbar buttons is a hangup for me.

Dormouse · « **Reply #873 on:** January 03, 2021, 02:14 PM »

Is there a way in obsidian to get a toolbar for markup?
-BGM (December 31, 2020, 08:41 AM)

I'd suggest just using Typora as your front end until Obsidian has its WYSIWYG editor. They both update fast, meaning they can be used at the same time.

Dormouse · « **Reply #874 on:** January 03, 2021, 02:22 PM »

For navigating, I basically use the sidebar where the files are listed, and the graph webbing view.
-superboyac (December 31, 2020, 12:27 AM)

I was interested because I find I'm ignoring most options.
I virtually never use the graph or the file explorer sidebar.
I do use links (backlinks sometimes), tags and search - and that's about it. I use my nested vaults as an easy way to limit the available files and would expect to use MOC (Maps of Content = indices) when they become useful.