Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten (Read 1037053 times)

JavaJones · « **Reply #700 on:** September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM »

My recommendation for users is to make a decision about database or files (or any combination according to preferred workflow), pick the app(s) that seem to suit best for now and then just use it(them). Check alternatives only when hitting an issue. They're all going to change and develop dramatically (some will vanish) and it will be easier to compare in a few years. Everyone is aware of what the others are doing, so the whole herd will add desirable features in a lagged sync.
-Dormouse (September 06, 2020, 04:43 AM)

While I agree with your overall point, again I think this DB or files thing may be a false dichotomy, at least for many people. I've yet to see a compelling real-world example of specific, practical workflows that would necessitate "files" that have no DB component. I think you may feel strongly that your own workflows demonstrate this, so I'd love to hear some examples of how you intend to (or already do) work this way and what significant advantages it brings you (vs. for example an Obsidian plugin that does the same thing as some external tool you use directly on files).

In other words I think there are other ways to achieve/solve the feature/functionality desires you have that make you want to work with "files", while still having nothing to do with a files vs. DB distinction. Whether you want to accept whatever sacrifices that might entail, such as having to pay for an Obsidian plugin for example, is another matter.

I do however think there is a very clear and important distinction between cloud/SaaS (Roam, Notion) and desktop/offline, perhaps with optional cloud sync (Obsidian, Anytype). *That* to me seems the more important choice to make since all of these systems pretty much import and export various flavors of markdown.

- Oshyan

JavaJones · « **Reply #701 on:** September 06, 2020, 06:10 PM »

Speaking of online vs. offline and Anytype, I recently got onto the private beta for it and it's surprisingly good already. It's pretty much feature-parity with Notion for *pages* functionality, but has no usable database functions as yet. It's clear though that they will get there as there is a hidden DB that indexes *all of your pages* already. And that's exciting, if they keep it, because it means all pages will be able to have meta-data, be sortable, filterable, etc. in DB views. This is unlike Notion, where there is a hard distinction between Pages (stand-alone) and Pages in a DB.

Happy to answer questions anyone has on Anytype in present state, too.

- Oshyan

Dormouse · « **Reply #702 on:** September 07, 2020, 04:23 AM »

all of these systems pretty much import and export various flavors of markdown.
-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)

One big advantage of files is that there is no export. I have them and I know what they look like. I never have to worry about changes to what is exported or glitches in the system.

Dormouse · « **Reply #703 on:** September 07, 2020, 04:31 AM »

a very clear and important distinction between cloud/SaaS (Roam, Notion) and desktop/offline, perhaps with optional cloud sync (Obsidian, Anytype).
-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)

I agree that this is an important distinction, but most of the database systems have online availability.

A few advertise a local database as a USP, but that brings a heavy price in terms of availability on all devices. My own guess is that these will wither and only the cloud sync (optional or not) will survive. Many programs are happy to advertise the program as free and only charge for sync - they know that's the best combination for hooking new users and making continuing users pay.

Dormouse · « **Reply #704 on:** September 07, 2020, 05:01 AM »

I think this DB or files thing may be a false dichotomy, at least for many people. I've yet to see a compelling real-world example of specific, practical workflows that would necessitate "files" that have no DB component. I think you may feel strongly that your own workflows demonstrate this, so I'd love to hear some examples of how you intend to (or already do) work this way and what significant advantages it brings you (vs. for example an Obsidian plugin that does the same thing as some external tool you use directly on files).
-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)

For many I agree the distinction is moot. They want all functions within a program and, in practice, a database works better for them. Because for many things a database can work faster or introduce features that are cumbersome in plain standalone files.

For me the workflow advantage of files is simple: I use other programs with those files. Those programs are standalone and feature rich. If one falls by the wayside, I can use another. I can use them at the same time as I have them open in Obsidian. I am not limited to whatever is available in Obsidian. I can simultaneously use Obsidian competitors such as Foam or Dendron. Because I can do this at the same time there is no switching disadvantage compared to an Obsidian plugin; in fact there's an advantage because I can use multiple windows where Obsidian is limited to one window per vault (apparently a limitation of Electron).

I don't care about when the Obsidian editor becomes wysiwyg because I can just use Typora. In practice I do most of my writing in WriteMonkey. I often have ProWritingAid open on the files.

Dormouse · « **Reply #705 on:** September 07, 2020, 05:05 AM »

I think there are other ways to achieve/solve the feature/functionality desires you have that make you want to work with "files", while still having nothing to do with a files vs. DB distinction.
-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)

But the distinction is key to being able to use the other programs.
In theory, their features could be duplicated, but I doubt they will be and my freedom of choice will be reduced.

Dormouse · « **Reply #706 on:** September 07, 2020, 05:23 AM »

DB component
-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)

WriteMonkey 3 operates a hybrid system; JSON database with option for documents to be synced to independent files. That works OK for me.

Obsidian has a settings (workspace) file and, I think, a JSON file with some saved info. It automatically replaces both if they are deleted, but there's some database functionality at least during a session.

I think they may extend the database functionality. I will be watching carefully what they do with that. They have already reserved YAML front matter for themselves (I believe this is to expedite future plugin functions); I'm definitely not keen on this approach because it starts cluttering the file up with extraneous stuff - I'd prefer plugins were allowed to use a JSON file.
Simple for me to avoid plugins I don't like. If Obsidian itself goes in a direction I dislike, I'll stop using it or just have updates turned off.

wraith808 · « **Reply #707 on:** September 07, 2020, 02:01 PM »

While I agree with your overall point, again I think this DB or files thing may be a false dichotomy, at least for many people. I've yet to see a compelling real-world example of specific, practical workflows that would necessitate "files" that have no DB component. I think you may feel strongly that your own workflows demonstrate this, so I'd love to hear some examples of how you intend to (or already do) work this way and what significant advantages it brings you (vs. for example an Obsidian plugin that does the same thing as some external tool you use directly on files).
-JavaJones (September 06, 2020, 06:08 PM)

I use plain text editors on my files, even on the go. I use a wide variety of them and change as I want. I also sync to git repos in several places as backups. DB is really not a false dichotomy. It might be in for some people- at least until their service goes the way of the dodo- but in practice, it leads to very different ownership of your data.

superboyac · « **Reply #708 on:** September 07, 2020, 04:02 PM »

quick update:

I've been working through all this notetaking business with markdown the past year, trying it all out, seeing what sticks, etc...this entire thread.

None of these methods are sticking for me. But it has rekindled my writing projects, and I've been writing a lot.

And you know what is sticking?? This program called Scapple. It's just a brainstorming tool. You write in bubbles and connect them, that's it. But I have been using it similar to how a zettel works, which is one scapple file per thought. A few bubbles connected, boom done. It is great, and it is sticking with me.

Unfortunately, it doesn't have any extra features. NOthing to search, nothing linked, no tags, etc. But you can't do that with a real zettel anyway.

SO why do I like it? It's very visual. With the bubbles and colors, it is very fast and easy to understand an idea, relative to reading linear text. VERY fast.

I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

ANyway, probably not super helpful. But I am loving it.

Dormouse · « **Reply #709 on:** September 07, 2020, 04:43 PM »

This program called Scapple. It's just a brainstorming tool. You write in bubbles and connect them, that's it. But I have been using it similar to how a zettel works, which is one scapple file per thought.
-superboyac (September 07, 2020, 04:02 PM)

I periodically return to Scapple. It's one of those programs I think ought to suit me (because it's visual) but never quite does in practice. It's very good if it's working for you though. Quite a lot of people are major fans.

superboyac · « **Reply #710 on:** September 07, 2020, 07:03 PM »

This program called Scapple. It's just a brainstorming tool. You write in bubbles and connect them, that's it. But I have been using it similar to how a zettel works, which is one scapple file per thought.
-superboyac (September 07, 2020, 04:02 PM)
I periodically return to Scapple. It's one of those programs I think ought to suit me (because it's visual) but never quite does in practice. It's very good if it's working for you though. Quite a lot of people are major fans.
-Dormouse (September 07, 2020, 04:43 PM)

Here's an example .... I think this is better than at least cards on paper. Printing this out would be even better.

wraith808 · « **Reply #711 on:** September 07, 2020, 08:58 PM »

I still use Scapple for plotting my writing and such. I actually use that and gingko- I just keep the files linked in my notes.

superboyac · « **Reply #712 on:** September 07, 2020, 09:12 PM »

gingko
-wraith808 (September 07, 2020, 08:58 PM)

nice....you must be a writer!

JavaJones · « **Reply #713 on:** September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM »

I'm really interested in specific benefits of direct text editing, but so far I am hearing *that* it is useful and important to you, but not much about *why*. That's OK, it is enough that it *is* important to you, clearly.

As far as general advice about how to choose a tool(set) in the current landscape, I maintain my position that "database vs. text" is a false dichotomy. It is definitely more useful IMO to state specific roots of concern that *may* arise from those two paradigms, such as "data ownership" (not a given with a DB, e.g. if it's using an open DB format and/or all content is markdown and it has a robust exporter). Which is part of why I want to know these specific advantages and use cases for external tools operating on text files.

It may simply come down simply to it "feels right". Or is rooted in a more abstract value or moral stance such as unwillingness (perhaps reasonable) to trust a company with your data under any circumstances. That kind of foundational limit will pretty severely restrict your choices, but that's OK if you understand and accept the trade-offs, if that specific value is important enough to you.

In the end whatever helps you be productive is great. It may not help others choose tools as a heuristic for evaluation and decision, but it's certainly a valid stance.

@superboyac, have you played with mind mapping tools? I would imagine so, but don't they work exactly like "Scapple"? Only some are way more mature than it sounds like it is currently... I would go crazy without Search.

- Oshyan

wraith808 · « **Reply #714 on:** September 07, 2020, 10:27 PM »

but not much about *why*
-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)

I don't get what you're missing. I stated the why above. Because it's portable and usable in other applications at the same time. It's also able to be backed up in whatever format I want, and is not locked into a specific vendor's format. Dormouse stated the same concern. What other 'why' are you looking for that might be missing?

Dormouse · « **Reply #715 on:** September 08, 2020, 04:35 AM »

I want to know these specific advantages and use cases for external tools operating on text files.
-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)

External tools have already been through a competitive process to decide which ones function best for me.
They have their own development trajectory which is entirely independent of a whole database program.
I can add any program at any point to gain a feature. I am not dependent upon the database developers choices and preferences.

Dormouse · « **Reply #716 on:** September 08, 2020, 05:15 AM »

"database vs. text" is a false dichotomy
-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)

Clearly we disagree.

It is a dichotomy - the programs either work using a database or they use files. (Or potentially both in the case of WriteMonkey 3).

"data ownership" (not a given with a DB, e.g. if it's using an open DB format and/or all content is markdown and it has a robust exporter).
-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)

Here you are introducing caveats specifying things to be watched for in a database.
Such watching is unnecessary with files.
In practice, databases don't use pure markdown (although they may attempt to export it ). The file based programs aren't pure either as they all prefer wikilinks. Not that any markdown is really pure.
And exports from programs like Roam need a lot of work to convert to useful files - and that is likely to increase as Roam continues to add features.

In theory, a database can provide any feature that a program using files has.
There are additional benefits, such as only having one file to backup. And speed - everything is loaded in a usable format whereas files have to be loaded before any processing.
But also disbenefits - they're rigid, you can only do what the program does; databases corrupt; export may not be as robust as you thought, especially if development is rapid.
The differences make the difference between the approaches a useful dichotomy to consider. For many, maybe even the majority, the benefits tip on the side of the database. Going with either approach means accepting the disadvantages of that choice.

Dormouse · « **Reply #717 on:** September 08, 2020, 05:18 AM »

"Scapple"? Only some are way more mature than it sounds like it is currently
-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)

Scapple is actually an old program. Designed as an adjunct to Scrivener. The simplicity is deliberate.

panzer · « **Reply #718 on:** September 08, 2020, 07:55 AM »

Notebag is a fully keyboard-compatible note taking app that links all your knowledge and gets out of your way:
https://notebag.app/

superboyac · « **Reply #719 on:** September 08, 2020, 02:15 PM »

I'm really interested in specific benefits of direct text editing, but so far I am hearing *that* it is useful and important to you, but not much about *why*. That's OK, it is enough that it *is* important to you, clearly.

As far as general advice about how to choose a tool(set) in the current landscape, I maintain my position that "database vs. text" is a false dichotomy. It is definitely more useful IMO to state specific roots of concern that *may* arise from those two paradigms, such as "data ownership" (not a given with a DB, e.g. if it's using an open DB format and/or all content is markdown and it has a robust exporter). Which is part of why I want to know these specific advantages and use cases for external tools operating on text files.

It may simply come down simply to it "feels right". Or is rooted in a more abstract value or moral stance such as unwillingness (perhaps reasonable) to trust a company with your data under any circumstances. That kind of foundational limit will pretty severely restrict your choices, but that's OK if you understand and accept the trade-offs, if that specific value is important enough to you.

In the end whatever helps you be productive is great. It may not help others choose tools as a heuristic for evaluation and decision, but it's certainly a valid stance.

@superboyac, have you played with mind mapping tools? I would imagine so, but don't they work exactly like "Scapple"? Only some are way more mature than it sounds like it is currently... I would go crazy without Search.

- Oshyan
-JavaJones (September 07, 2020, 09:53 PM)

I've probably tried ALL the mind mapping tools in the last 20 years LOLL. jk....

But I've tried so many. I don't like mind mapping tools because they force you to use their methods...it's not as freeform as just drawing a bubble and connecting it to another. A loooooong time ago, when I was doing this here, mouser suggested Edge Diagrammer, a simple outlining tool (like visio but simpler). I used that for a while. But once I saw Scapple, it was much more perfect.

dormouse...I also recently tried Scrivener...didn't see it being terribly useful. Eventually, I was like I'll just use Final Draft directly for screenwriting. But Scapple still is very unique and perfect. Scrivener reminds me of another strange application from back in the day called....liquid story builder. Same thing, didn't stick.

Dormouse · « **Reply #720 on:** September 08, 2020, 03:06 PM »

another strange application from back in the day called....liquid story builder
-superboyac (September 08, 2020, 02:15 PM)

Nothing comes close to the strangeness of Liquid Story Binder. It worked, if you could learn the techniques, but it was always in the way of any creative flow. It was strangely antiquated even when it first launched.

Scrivener also has a steep learning curve, but is a good program. Particularly good for some things, especially if you write in small chunks, but mostly OK and functional. But the Windows version always struggles to keep up. After an extraordinarily long gestation the developer promised the final version would be out around this time last year. Still hasn't made it. But works reasonably well, doesn't lose data and can be used free until it's finished. I've used it from time to time but it has never aided creativity, just getting the job done.
And not really designed around screenwriting.

I like Scapple, but I like using a pen and Android tablet more.

superboyac · « **Reply #721 on:** September 09, 2020, 07:22 PM »

another strange application from back in the day called....liquid story builder
-superboyac (September 08, 2020, 02:15 PM)
Nothing comes close to the strangeness of Liquid Story Binder. It worked, if you could learn the techniques, but it was always in the way of any creative flow. It was strangely antiquated even when it first launched.

Scrivener also has a steep learning curve, but is a good program. Particularly good for some things, especially if you write in small chunks, but mostly OK and functional. But the Windows version always struggles to keep up. After an extraordinarily long gestation the developer promised the final version would be out around this time last year. Still hasn't made it. But works reasonably well, doesn't lose data and can be used free until it's finished. I've used it from time to time but it has never aided creativity, just getting the job done.
And not really designed around screenwriting.

I like Scapple, but I like using a pen and Android tablet more.

-Dormouse (September 08, 2020, 03:06 PM)

i mean if we are talking going primitive....eventually i can end up scirbbling diagrams and saving the images, and those images are my zettel.

Dormouse · « **Reply #722 on:** September 09, 2020, 08:51 PM »

eventually i can end up scirbbling diagrams and saving the images, and those images are my zettel.
-superboyac (September 09, 2020, 07:22 PM)

I do that!
A bit. Sometimes just drawing on paper or a board and saving a photo. Sometimes just hand writing. OCR is remarkable now. But mostly on my tablet.
And gets processed in exactly the way anything typed.
I find it much more productive to rough some things out by hand.

wraith808 · « **Reply #723 on:** September 09, 2020, 09:37 PM »

I do it on a Rocketbook ThinkBoard mounted next to my desk, and it reads my diagrams and handwriting easily.

panzer · « **Reply #724 on:** September 11, 2020, 05:37 PM »

Logseq is a local-first, non-linear, outliner notebook for organizing and sharing your personal knowledge base:
https://logseq.com/