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Last post Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten  (Read 196198 times)

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #950 on: December 07, 2021, 05:51 PM »
Guys, update on all this:
I'm still using that web portal neuron for reading my notes....it is now called emanote, and even better.
For writing and editing, I use Obsidian.

emanote is awesome.

That looks amazingly clean and simple. Also loads up pages lightning fast. Any idea when it will come out of beta? Would love to try it out on some projects.
I have no idea about the timeline.  But I'm using it anyway.  There is zero risk of anything happening since it uses plain md files and folder structure.  The developer is very dedicated to not having anything become obsolete.  He may eventually offer some kind of web hosted app, but not sure about that. 

Not only is it very fast to load, but I can make changes in a text file in obsidian, and the change will be implemented instantly, if you have a file syncing service like me set up.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #951 on: December 07, 2021, 08:13 PM »
I can make changes in a text file in obsidian
Did you ever say what made you switch from Zettlr to Obsidian?

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #952 on: December 07, 2021, 11:51 PM »
Zettlr did not have that map web pane.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #953 on: December 08, 2021, 03:05 AM »
map web pane
Ah.
That thing I never use

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #954 on: December 08, 2021, 02:13 PM »
map web pane
Ah.
That thing I never use
I don't use it that much either.  But I like having it.
The other thing I like using, although super minor, is the preview pane.  So I have edit mode in one pane, and then view mode right next to it side by side.

That's it.  For the most part, Zettlr did everything I wanted, no complaints.
Obsidian is also becoming more common overall with users like us, so that might be another reason to stick to it.  I know the neuron guy specifically makes sure his features like link formats and stuff work in Obsidian.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #955 on: December 08, 2021, 04:11 PM »
Obsidian is also becoming more common overall with users like us,
Popularity soaring it seems. Nearly 50k on the Discord last time I looked and I'm not sure most users use it.
Be interesting to see whether you decide to use Live Preview once it's public. That might be a little while since there's still a fair number of bugs being reported and a few major features still to be added.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #956 on: December 08, 2021, 04:13 PM »
For the most part, Zettlr did everything I wanted, no complaints.
Even the recent upgrade is still on CM5. Judging from Obsidian updating to CM6 will be a major effort once it's decided to do it. But will have to be done sometime.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #957 on: December 10, 2021, 06:17 AM »
Live Preview once it's public. That might be a little while since there's still a fair number of bugs being reported and a few major features still to be added.
They're hoping to release it imminently it seems. idk. Presumably for Christmas. Still too many issues for inexperienced users, I would have thought, but it works and many prefer it now they have adjusted.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #958 on: December 13, 2021, 05:19 PM »
They're hoping to release it imminently it seems. idk.
Seem to have pulled back a little. Public release (presumably) still imminent,  but Live Preview and the new editor will no longer be the default.
That makes sense to me. Allows it to be tried without conveying the impression that people will be stuck with it. WYSIWYG fans will likely choose it, but there are still niggles and some performance issues and pure productivity may be best on legacy editor (restored default).

At least some of the issues arise from the CM5 to CM6 switch. And plugins and themes not being updated yet to new editor/API. Interesting to see that Obsidian has the Microsoft problem of legacy support after existing less than two years.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #959 on: December 21, 2021, 07:01 PM »
Live Preview
Now public, with a variety of other improvements that have been introduced recently.

wrt to writing, I like the new File Info plugin (not yet approved, but installable via BRAT). Works for txt as well as md files.  - words, pages, word frequency etc. Stays as a right panel option rather than being a menu selection like the simpler Get Info plugin.
Adding it to moving sections via the outline, that's two good writer features Obsidian has added lately.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #960 on: December 24, 2021, 04:03 PM »
oh yea, the other thing that bugged me about zettlr....something about when the dropdown appears for selecting other notes, it shows just the serial number, not the note title.  something like that.  So obsidian has better options for dealing with that.  Just a little more flexible.

Dormouse

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OPML - New Lines or New Paragraphs
« Reply #961 on: December 29, 2021, 03:48 PM »
I'm currently trying to refine my new core writing workflow, and looking fro glitches. I have discovered one described in this thread.. afaics the simplest solution is having paragraphs separated into, wait for it, paragraphs.
But that leaves in a markdown quandary.

I like my main workflow to be efficient. I am used to producing a new paragraph by typing Enter. I have been neutral about whether that paragraph is actually a paragraph (as in Word and other word processors, Scrivener etc) or a long single plaintext line as in most markdown editors; all I need is to be able to see my paragraphs as separate and distinct. My formatting programs have options to convert lines to paragraphs. These markdown editors includes WriteMonkey and Obsidian, and there's no option to change the behaviour (see this thread. Now I know that some apparently happily go Enter, Enter to achieve the blank line required to define a markdown paragraph, but I know I will never be one of them. My muscle memory is too strong. Even with a manual typewriter you could do CR LF with one hand then Tab with the other.

So the quandary.
  • I could switch to doing the substantive writing in Typora or MarkText which will do the required formatting. (As an addon, I could type in Word etc and copy/paste in). Not ideal, but not so bad; I'm used to writing in many programs.
  • I could give up putting the text into a file that swaps in and out of OPML. Certainly doable, but separates the synopsis and planning into a separate file from the text.
  • I could investigate and tweak the conversion processes. Might be doable. But OPML syntax isn't massively well defined, I'd probably have to get to grips with the innards of pandoc, and there's a long history of OPML issues on the web many of which finger weird formatting on the part of Dynalist and Workflowy.
  • I could find a different outliner that managed it all more successfully, but I don't know of another that has such a functional kanban as Workflowy.
My gut tells me to go with New Paragraph, because that's the dominant technology and expectation at most stages. Write in a program that does it with a single Enter. Double Entry in outliners or where otherwise necessary.

PS Had a further look at MarkText. Pretty well unusable for longer documents. No folding. No good navigation. Some aspects slow.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2021, 06:25 PM by Dormouse »

urlwolf

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #962 on: January 01, 2022, 09:03 AM »
Came here after years of inactivity to say : zim https://zim-wiki.org/
It's everything I wanted from a notetaking tool. And it was great keyboard latency, being a native app and not a SASS or an electron app.

Probably the most useful piece of software I have right now.

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #963 on: January 01, 2022, 12:16 PM »
Came here after years of inactivity to say : zim https://zim-wiki.org/
It's everything I wanted from a notetaking tool. And it was great keyboard latency, being a native app and not a SASS or an electron app.

Probably the most useful piece of software I have right now.

Are pages stored internally to the app? Or on your disk in text format?

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #964 on: January 01, 2022, 12:37 PM »
Are pages stored internally to the app? Or on your disk in text format?

I installed to answer my own question. The answer is... sort of. It seems the home page is not a file, but everything else (so far) is. It uses its own formatting. Here's a sample from a page I did to see it:

Code: Text [Select]
  1. Content-Type: text/x-zim-wiki
  2. Wiki-Format: zim 0.6
  3. Creation-Date: 2022-01-01T13:33:29-05:00
  4.  
  5. ====== New Page ======
  6. Created Saturday 01 January 2022
  7.  
  8. This is a new page. How are things formatted?
  9.  
  10. **Bold**
  11. //Italics//
  12. //**Bold Italics**//
  13. __Underline__
  14. **__Bold Underline__**
  15. //__Italics Underline__//
  16. //**__Bold Italics Underline__**//

It seems interesting, but the fact that it uses bespoke formatting is a definite negative.

rjbull

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #965 on: January 01, 2022, 05:03 PM »
Came here after years of inactivity to say : zim https://zim-wiki.org/
[...]

Are pages stored internally to the app? Or on your disk in text format?
@wraith808: what happened to your interest in Ema Personal Wiki, which you mentioned earlier in this post?

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #966 on: January 01, 2022, 06:03 PM »
bespoke formatting
Looks somewhat like org-mode but more longwinded

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #967 on: January 02, 2022, 01:22 AM »
Came here after years of inactivity to say : zim https://zim-wiki.org/
[...]

Are pages stored internally to the app? Or on your disk in text format?
@wraith808: what happened to your interest in Ema Personal Wiki, which you mentioned earlier in this post?

Same thing as this - it uses WikiWords, but it's still bespoke. I like the idea, but I'm firmly in the markdown camp now.

rjbull

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #968 on: January 02, 2022, 03:23 PM »
Came here after years of inactivity to say : zim https://zim-wiki.org/
[...]

Are pages stored internally to the app? Or on your disk in text format?
@wraith808: what happened to your interest in Ema Personal Wiki, which you mentioned earlier in this post?

Same thing as this - it uses WikiWords, but it's still bespoke. I like the idea, but I'm firmly in the markdown camp now.

That's a pity, as Ema Personal Wiki has an Android version as well as a Windows one.  I don't want my data in the cloud, but interoperability is a big plus.

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #969 on: January 02, 2022, 04:08 PM »

That's a pity, as Ema Personal Wiki has an Android version as well as a Windows one.  I don't want my data in the cloud, but interoperability is a big plus.


If you don't care about that, it's a great tool. I thought about trying to integrate Markdown support into it, but settled instead of using Visual Studio Code with extensions and a Git repo. A lot easier than rolling my own, and I can edit on the move if I need to with several options that interface nicely.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #970 on: January 02, 2022, 05:46 PM »
Double Entry in outliners
This can be avoided with a robust, but convoluted, workflow.
  • Write using the outline, rather than in the Notes. In Dynalist article view shows the typed text minus the bullets, if that matters. For some writing this is an advantage anyway because it means small sections can easily be rearranged.
  • Copy the formatted text, and paste into a word processor.
  • Remove the bullets and left align if necessary. This leaves each bullet text as a separate paragraph.
  • Copy and paste the result into a markdown editor. Paragraphs retained in Typora, MarkText and Obsidian. Or can be pasted into an outliner note with paragraphs also retained.
This workflow has the advantage of being robust however often a file is converted from markdown to OPML and back. With the disadvantage that traditional markdown editors, including Obsidian and WriteMonkey, are less convenient for writing.

urlwolf

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #971 on: January 03, 2022, 09:10 AM »
Non-markdown format is not a big issue for me as long as it's plain text. There's pandoc. I moved from .md to zimwiki with it, no problems.

Now that we are talking, I find markdown a poor choice; the spec is poor (one blog bost!), there are multiple implementations/flavors, and it doesn't have good solutions for tables, embedding video etc (other than reverting to html). It forces apps to run a browser (or worse, embed it) to render it too.

For a killer plaintext format, check asciidoc. That was my choice before I went back to zim.

Check the plugins for zim too.

Other than collaboration (zim is a single player game), I'm very satisfied. Never been this satisfied with a software choice before.

urlwolf

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #972 on: January 03, 2022, 09:11 AM »
Well, I'd like to have a way to do hand-drawing in zim. But otherwise it's spot on for me.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #973 on: January 03, 2022, 11:00 AM »
I find markdown a poor choice; the spec is poor (one blog bost!), there are multiple implementations/flavors, and it doesn't have good solutions for tables, embedding video etc (other than reverting to html). It forces apps to run a browser (or worse, embed it) to render it too.

I'd agree with all of this. But it's so fashionable it has become ubiquitous and practically what most people mean by plaintext.


For a killer plaintext format, check asciidoc.

I'd agree that asciidoc is better than markdown. Apart from its rarity.

But what makes most sense to me is:
*bold* /italic/ _underline_
and that's even rarer as a format.

markdown ... spec is poor
 etc (other than reverting to html)
My own observation is that markdown claims to be simple and human readable. But it isn't without a rosetta Stone equivalent. Use of whitespace is a nightmare and that is invisible.
And, doing many of the things that people want to do becomes extremely complex very quickly. At least word processors push complexity behind the scenes.

I like many of the ideas behind org-mode, but rarity means I've never looked for its own disadvantages. But I am aware that it's one of the options in Logseq.

I think this has reasonable criticisms of other plaintext formats, including asciidoc:
Org Mode Is One of the Most Reasonable Markup Languages to Use for Text
Also OrgDown

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #974 on: January 03, 2022, 08:51 PM »
Non-markdown format is not a big issue for me as long as it's plain text. There's pandoc. I moved from .md to zimwiki with it, no problems.

Now that we are talking, I find markdown a poor choice; the spec is poor (one blog bost!), there are multiple implementations/flavors, and it doesn't have good solutions for tables, embedding video etc (other than reverting to html). It forces apps to run a browser (or worse, embed it) to render it too.

For a killer plaintext format, check asciidoc. That was my choice before I went back to zim.

Check the plugins for zim too.

Other than collaboration (zim is a single player game), I'm very satisfied. Never been this satisfied with a software choice before.

I did check asciidoc. The problem with it is the same as beta vs VHS, i.e. adoption rates. Markdown is pretty much everywhere, so there are several options for editors. Asciidoc, not so much. And in all honesty, every format has it's good and bad. So I decided on MD and went with it, so others are not really attractive to me.

My own observation is that markdown claims to be simple and human readable. But it isn't without a rosetta Stone equivalent.

Depends on what you mean by human-readable. If you're talking like a formatted document, then none are going to be WYSIWYG- that's the point. But you can read it, unlike, for instance a Word Document. I think that's all that's meant by human-readable.