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Last post Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten  (Read 79662 times)

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #500 on: June 22, 2020, 07:43 PM »
Which format is good for what?  [[]] is for internal zettel links, right?  I see []() used more broadly in other applications.  In the zettel context, they should be interchangeable.  Or obsidian should have a feature to deal with the two types.
Remember Obsidian isn't a zettelkasten program  - it's just capable of being used as one. [[]] is a wiki link, []() is the conventional markdown syntax. Obsidian prefers the former because it's simpler, but can understand the latter.

This whole class of software is rooted in wikis.
Wiki to outliner (Workflowy), pure wiki type outliner to hybrid with multiple outlines (Dynalist), to Roam with bidirectional links and idiosyncratic selections of markdown syntax in its database/documents (some if its syntax taken directly from Dynalist), to Obsidian which uses actual markdown files. The most commonly referred to traditional alternative to the last two is Tiddlywiki and its offshoots.

I haven't used zettlr, but I think it's designed purely zettelkasten and doesn't have the whole setup around bidirectional links?

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #501 on: June 22, 2020, 07:57 PM »
I've been very hesitant to commit to zettel because i first want to know the tools I'm going to use.  I think this will work for now.
Before committing too hard to zettel, it's worth thinking about Andy Matuschak's evergreen notes.
I'm not following either really. I think they have a strong appeal to those who are attracted to a rigid system. I do subscribe to atomicity, though I think there are a variety of ways to achieve it, and I do believe it is important both to think and to record the results of the thinking. And I use a whole variety of links. The problem with thinking is that it takes the time it takes, and insights, leaps and eurekas are only possible when your mind is open rather than on a trail or on a schedule.

Nod5

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #502 on: June 23, 2020, 03:25 AM »
brainstorm: plaintext note content hierarchy via indentation

I more and more like the idea of hierarchical notes via pythonic indentation
  with 2 spaces instead of 4, for compactness
  minimal yet very readable in code editor set to show whitespace and fixed width font
  problem: markdown and asciidoc use space/tab indentation for other things
    markdown treats 4 indentation spaces as a code block
    markdown collapses e.g. 3 or 14 spaces to no indentation
      https://stackoverflo...-help#advanced-lists
      https://stackoverflo...ab-space-in-markdown
    https://asciidoctor....tax-quick-reference/

Any ideas/workarounds on using such compact pythonic indentation effectively in markdown based notes apps/systems?

Comparison examples

1. pythonic indentation (2 spaces)
Note: markdown collapses these indents and shows all on one line if not two suffix spaces.

Sun
  big
  hot
  bright
    https://en.wikipedia...rg/wiki/Sun#Sunlight

2. Markdown nested list

- Sun
    - big
    - hot
    - bright
        - https://en.wikipedia...rg/wiki/Sun#Sunlight

3. Markdown nested list alternating bullet characters (more compact, but still extra characters)

- Sun
  + big
  + hot
  + bright
    - https://en.wikipedia...rg/wiki/Sun#Sunlight

Examples screenshot from VS Code with raw and preview tabs
vscode markdown example.pngI'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

Wishes unlikely to come true
I wish markdown by default rendered indentation as indentation! For code blocks there is already the three fence ``` prefix/suffix.

I even wish that minus - and plus + at line start (with/without indentation) defaulted to not be interpreted as bullet point list formatting. They should function as list formatting characters only when preceded by a line prefixed with some other character that would start a list. For example a dot . character.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 03:30 AM by Nod5 »

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #503 on: June 23, 2020, 05:14 AM »
Wishes unlikely to come true
I wish markdown by default rendered indentation as indentation! For code blocks there is already the three fence ``` prefix/suffix.

I even wish that minus - and plus + at line start (with/without indentation) defaulted to not be interpreted as bullet point list formatting. They should function as list formatting characters only when preceded by a line prefixed with some other character that would start a list. For example a dot . character.
You could make them true yourself. Fork an appropriate FOSS project by inserting your preferred changes to syntax and then describe it as GFM, or whatever the original is, with Nod extensions.
When you have enough followers,  you can overwhelm the Canutes involved in agreeing standards.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #504 on: June 23, 2020, 11:46 AM »
evergreen notes
I am interested...
I went to this siite
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/
(very cool site design btw)
but i don't get what evergreen notes are.  Is there a sample I can see somewhere?  Even zettel, its best to see examples than to figure out the philosophy through the flowery discussions.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #505 on: June 23, 2020, 11:55 AM »
I've been very hesitant to commit to zettel because i first want to know the tools I'm going to use.  I think this will work for now.
Before committing too hard to zettel, it's worth thinking about Andy Matuschak's evergreen notes.
I'm not following either really. I think they have a strong appeal to those who are attracted to a rigid system. I do subscribe to atomicity, though I think there are a variety of ways to achieve it, and I do believe it is important both to think and to record the results of the thinking. And I use a whole variety of links. The problem with thinking is that it takes the time it takes, and insights, leaps and eurekas are only possible when your mind is open rather than on a trail or on a schedule.
OK you got me thinking outside the box...
Well...if that's the case, I don't really care about that ID number.  I think it makes the filenames look ugly, and its complicating matters for me, and I don't see how useful they are when i can find this very quickly using universal search as you type stuff.  I have so many text file searching tools.  I can find anything anytime.

But the "atomicity" idea is the important one i think.  Zettel and this green guy both are centered around it, and it's something I really haven't done in my notes.  I think that is where to focus on.

I like the yaml headers.

I like qownnotes if I don't have to get locked into a zettel system.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #506 on: June 23, 2020, 01:15 PM »
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/
(very cool site design btw)
but i don't get what evergreen notes are. 
These are his notes,  so many of them are evergreen.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. All it really means is that they are notes that have a long-term value rather than temporary notes. Which notes ticks that box is up to you.
He developed his system after playing with zettelkasten ideas.
But you want your own system. Some of his ideas are interesting and useful,  but I believe it's always a mistake to follow any of these systems rigidly without fitting their ideas into what suits you.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #507 on: June 23, 2020, 04:21 PM »
https://notes.andymatuschak.org/
(very cool site design btw)
but i don't get what evergreen notes are.
These are his notes,  so many of them are evergreen.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. All it really means is that they are notes that have a long-term value rather than temporary notes. Which notes ticks that box is up to you.
He developed his system after playing with zettelkasten ideas.
But you want your own system. Some of his ideas are interesting and useful,  but I believe it's always a mistake to follow any of these systems rigidly without fitting their ideas into what suits you.
I'm starting to agree with you.

So far, the features I think are important to me are: atomicity and inbox-to-final.  I already have good note taking discipline, so what's missing are these two ideas.  THe inbox thing i like because i currently have no way of organizing.  WHen it comes to creating a final product, I waste a lot of time recreating and finding everything and spend a lot of time re-thinking things over again that i've already solved.

software update:
I'm back to liking zettlr again.  I like the display and writing comfort.
The yaml header is key.
I'll not be including any ID's in filenames.  Only in the yaml header.
Sublime is good, but it will take some time to make it look and feel perfect.  This will be a project.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #508 on: June 23, 2020, 04:38 PM »
ugh...more software issues.

Is it a problem if I DON'T put my tags in the yaml header?
The reason why is because Zettlr's nifty tag features don't work if the tag is in the yaml.  It works fine if it's outside the yaml.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #509 on: June 23, 2020, 08:36 PM »
Is it a problem if I DON'T put my tags in the yaml header?
Why would it be?
Obsidian doesn't recognise YAML at all. Might be added at some point, but it's not a universal feature.
Does feel neater to have them hidden though.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #510 on: June 24, 2020, 04:12 AM »
don't get what evergreen notes are.  Is there a sample I can see somewhere?
Description again,  but I read this comment on the Obsidian discord
Zettels as Luhman/Ahrens use them are specific things. Zettlekasten.de uses another definition, and now the term is often thrown around to just mean "note". Read Ahrens' book for his notion and compare to Andy M's description of types of evergreen notes. They have different purposes and focus. The original ZK is for academic writing. Andy M's notes are for productive thinking. These are related but different activities.

PS I disagree with his characterisation of Luhmann. Academic writing, yes, but also about new, personal ideas.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #511 on: June 24, 2020, 12:41 PM »
OK what do you guys think of this idea:

A tool that can be run where you load in all your folders and files, and it renames the files based on the ID-title tag in the yaml header.

You can control and even preview the new names before executing.
You can tweak the paramenters to fit your header.
You can tweak how the new name format should be.  ID.md or ID - title.md....or title.md etc etc

This tool is great and would be independent of your notetaking software.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #512 on: June 24, 2020, 01:27 PM »
brainstorm: plaintext note content hierarchy via indentation

I more and more like the idea of hierarchical notes via pythonic indentation
  with 2 spaces instead of 4, for compactness
  minimal yet very readable in code editor set to show whitespace and fixed width font
  problem: markdown and asciidoc use space/tab indentation for other things
    markdown treats 4 indentation spaces as a code block
    markdown collapses e.g. 3 or 14 spaces to no indentation
      https://stackoverflo...-help#advanced-lists
      https://stackoverflo...ab-space-in-markdown
    https://asciidoctor....tax-quick-reference/

Any ideas/workarounds on using such compact pythonic indentation effectively in markdown based notes apps/systems?

Comparison examples

1. pythonic indentation (2 spaces)
Note: markdown collapses these indents and shows all on one line if not two suffix spaces.

Sun
  big
  hot
  bright
    https://en.wikipedia...rg/wiki/Sun#Sunlight

2. Markdown nested list

- Sun
    - big
    - hot
    - bright
        - https://en.wikipedia...rg/wiki/Sun#Sunlight

3. Markdown nested list alternating bullet characters (more compact, but still extra characters)

- Sun
  + big
  + hot
  + bright
    - https://en.wikipedia...rg/wiki/Sun#Sunlight

Examples screenshot from VS Code with raw and preview tabs
[ Invalid Attachment ]

Wishes unlikely to come true
I wish markdown by default rendered indentation as indentation! For code blocks there is already the three fence ``` prefix/suffix.

I even wish that minus - and plus + at line start (with/without indentation) defaulted to not be interpreted as bullet point list formatting. They should function as list formatting characters only when preceded by a line prefixed with some other character that would start a list. For example a dot . character.
I didnt realize until now that markdown couldn't do indentation.  That would be nice if it were implemented.  It's not even in any of the other markdown flavors?

panzer

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #513 on: June 24, 2020, 01:43 PM »
tiddlyroam is a free, open source alternative to Roam. It is a notetaking app that works the way your brain does: networked, personal and infinitely customisable:
https://tiddlyroam.org/

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #514 on: June 24, 2020, 02:00 PM »
tiddlyroam is a free, open source alternative to Roam. It is a notetaking app that works the way your brain does: networked, personal and infinitely customisable:
https://tiddlyroam.org/

That's actually really interesting.  But it doesn't fit my paradigm of plain text files for the notes.  I really love the idea though.  Might have to revisit it later.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #515 on: June 24, 2020, 04:20 PM »
I didnt realize until now that markdown couldn't do indentation.  That would be nice if it were implemented.  It's not even in any of the other markdown flavors?
Used for other things (code block). You're stuck with    etc
depending on how many you want to add.

The idea is that markdown isn't meant for layout, and paragraph indent is layout. So that should be in the CSS.

panzer

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #516 on: June 24, 2020, 04:28 PM »
How to never lose another memory again:
https://superorganiz...-lose-another-memory

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #517 on: June 24, 2020, 06:59 PM »
How to never lose another memory again:
https://superorganiz...-lose-another-memory
I use the Journal (software) for this precisely.
the right side of the interface is just a data/calendar picker.  SO you click on any date and go to your notes for that day.  The notes have no structure to it.  This has been my "inbox" for a while now.  This is where i go from here to my notetaker's "inbox".  And from there, my new method using this topic in the thread with zettels, is to take these inbox items and formalize them into a atomized archive.  That last step is something i never did until learning about this zettel stuff.  That's the part I want to practice to make my productivity better.

There is something very valuable about going back and chronologically reading through your original thoughts.  I've always noticed it being valuable for me, but did not know how to make use of it.  And the answer I think will be this process of atomizing ideas and perhaps adding a standard header to note files.

I am a huge fan of outlining and outliners.  Anything to make outlining easier and prettier, I'm a big fan of.  What I don't like about all this zettel stuff is how its so much in the programmer's world of things.  Meaning all these code formatting features.  But I'm looking at it from a non programmer perspective.  I'd prefer to have outlining features over code formatting features.  I'm sure it (markdown) can be resolved somehow.  Maybe distinguish the <tab> character vs spaces. 

m9833

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #518 on: June 25, 2020, 03:15 AM »
How to never lose another memory again:
https://superorganiz...-lose-another-memory

I am getting more and more reliant on Mouser's excellent "Clipboard Help+Spell" for a lot of note taking. I just copy what I want into the clipboard, may it be text notes, images, webpages, or references. The text notes can be modified using the inbuilt editor. All I am missing there are tags, highlighters, and comments/annotations. But even without these, because of the constant use of clipboard memory, it has automatically become my go to notes keeper.

m9833

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #519 on: June 25, 2020, 03:18 AM »
Thanks to the discussions here, I have tried Obsidian and it really does seem to do a lot of things that I want including internal wiki-linking. Has anybody managed to integrate/use a spellchecker with it. The Obsidian forum posts about a spellchecker offer aspell as a solution, but with Linux/Unix. Not much about a Windows solution there.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #520 on: June 25, 2020, 04:01 AM »
What I don't like about all this zettel stuff is how its so much in the programmer's world of things.  Meaning all these code formatting features.  But I'm looking at it from a non programmer perspective.  I'd prefer to have outlining features over code formatting features.  I'm sure it (markdown) can be resolved somehow.  Maybe distinguish the <tab> character vs spaces. 
As you know, I'm not a fan of the state of markdown. But the tab paragraph indentation is more nuanced. Writers generally don't use it. WPs may be set up to do it automatically, because seeing the words and layout is part of composition, but manually is bad. Easy if you are writing a letter or essay to print yourself, but poor practice. This is because house styles are usually set up and adjusted with CSS or equivalent. So manual tabs get in the way and always need to be stripped out. Life is always easier at the publishing end without them. But few use the styles features of WPs.  :( Tabs are typewriter technology; a breakthrough in their time,  but that was over a century ago.

Outlines, of course, are usually constructed with bullets.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #521 on: June 25, 2020, 04:03 AM »
Has anybody managed to integrate/use a spellchecker with it.
Latest insider build has a spellchecker (US English only), a few glitches still being sorted.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #522 on: June 25, 2020, 04:06 AM »
All I am missing there are tags, highlighters, and comments
You just type these in with markdown  ;D

m9833

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #523 on: June 25, 2020, 04:33 AM »
Latest insider build has a spellchecker (US English only), a few glitches still being sorted.

This is good news. I look forward to trying it out.

m9833

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #524 on: June 25, 2020, 04:35 AM »
All I am missing there are tags, highlighters, and comments
You just type these in with markdown  ;D

Markdown has the option to tag, highlight, and comment as well? Wow! That I need to try out. Through, I would very much prefer a menu bar for this, probably mainly because that is what I am used to since a long time.

I did not know that CHS also has a Markdown feature. How can one activate or use it?