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Last post Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten  (Read 118156 times)

tomos

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #450 on: June 17, 2020, 12:03 PM »
I like this visual, it is helpful.

It is!  Thanks for sharing - I can really see the workflow from this image.  My only problem is the same thing that I have with everything- I can collect, but going through the collection is a problem for me.  I need to do the first two steps at the same time.
Do you mean the Zettelkasten notes *and* the reference database?
Tom

panzer

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #451 on: June 17, 2020, 01:04 PM »
VNote - a note-taking application that knows programmers and Markdown better:
https://tamlok.github.io/vnote

Bytebase helps you jot down and triage notes without slowing you down:
https://bytebase.io./
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 01:12 PM by panzer »

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #452 on: June 17, 2020, 03:02 PM »
I like this visual, it is helpful.

It is!  Thanks for sharing - I can really see the workflow from this image.  My only problem is the same thing that I have with everything- I can collect, but going through the collection is a problem for me.  I need to do the first two steps at the same time.
Do you mean the Zettelkasten notes *and* the reference database?



Altering your image -
zettel_image.pngI'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

Step 1 is going to the inbox
Step 2 is thinking about where it should be once it's in the inbox

I can't get from step 1 to step 2 in most cases.  If I just do it without thinking about it, I get little idiosyncracies in how they're categorized.  So my notes never get from the inbox to the archive referenced.  It's a failing on my part, but I haven't found anything that really helps with that without it seeming like 'too much'.

rjbull

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #453 on: June 17, 2020, 04:47 PM »
Warning - I haven't tried this, and MBAM blocks the site as a Trojan.
I wondered whether Info Select needed cloning,  and then noticed the .ch.
?

After your MBAM warning,  I decided not to visit the site.
MBAM's 'Web Protection' is now far too eager to block a site as 'Trojan.'  It did it to Horst Schaeffer's site, and I've used his software for decades.  It did it to PowerPro, and that must be one of the oldest macro-type programs still around.  I got MBAM to check and whitelist those, but it gets tedious for every site.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #454 on: June 17, 2020, 05:10 PM »
Step 1 is going to the inbox
Step 2 is thinking about where it should be once it's in the inbox

I can't get from step 1 to step 2 in most cases.  If I just do it without thinking about it, I get little idiosyncracies in how they're categorized.  So my notes never get from the inbox to the archive referenced.
If we forget the formal zettelkasten method which is predicated on the notes eventually being published, then my current system makes it very easy to do in one pass. Using tags rather than folders or equivalent.
  • If it's something not ever worth seeing again,  it goes to the Attics (possibly I'll note why it's worthless).
  • If it's not worth spending more time on,  it goes to the Archive, usually with a few more tags.
  • If I make a note,  it goes to the Library. Note into the Scriptorium; I'll add links if I can think of them, but don't get hung upon it.
I don't spend time going through them trying to find ways of extending the notes. I only go through them when there's another purpose in mind. But if I have a new thought I add a new note - and the link will be obvious.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #455 on: June 18, 2020, 12:46 AM »
VNote - a note-taking application that knows programmers and Markdown better:
https://tamlok.github.io/vnote

Bytebase helps you jot down and triage notes without slowing you down:
https://bytebase.io./
wow these are very nifty tools.  man so many choices.  I do have some minor complaints about zettlr.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #456 on: June 18, 2020, 12:48 AM »
Step 1 is going to the inbox
Step 2 is thinking about where it should be once it's in the inbox

I can't get from step 1 to step 2 in most cases.  If I just do it without thinking about it, I get little idiosyncracies in how they're categorized.  So my notes never get from the inbox to the archive referenced.
If we forget the formal zettelkasten method which is predicated on the notes eventually being published, then my current system makes it very easy to do in one pass. Using tags rather than folders or equivalent.
  • If it's something not ever worth seeing again,  it goes to the Attics (possibly I'll note why it's worthless).
  • If it's not worth spending more time on,  it goes to the Archive, usually with a few more tags.
  • If I make a note,  it goes to the Library. Note into the Scriptorium; I'll add links if I can think of them, but don't get hung upon it.
I don't spend time going through them trying to find ways of extending the notes. I only go through them when there's another purpose in mind. But if I have a new thought I add a new note - and the link will be obvious.
makes a lot of sense to me, and simple to follow.

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #457 on: June 18, 2020, 10:26 AM »
Step 1 is going to the inbox
Step 2 is thinking about where it should be once it's in the inbox

I can't get from step 1 to step 2 in most cases.  If I just do it without thinking about it, I get little idiosyncracies in how they're categorized.  So my notes never get from the inbox to the archive referenced.
If we forget the formal zettelkasten method which is predicated on the notes eventually being published, then my current system makes it very easy to do in one pass. Using tags rather than folders or equivalent.
  • If it's something not ever worth seeing again,  it goes to the Attics (possibly I'll note why it's worthless).
  • If it's not worth spending more time on,  it goes to the Archive, usually with a few more tags.
  • If I make a note,  it goes to the Library. Note into the Scriptorium; I'll add links if I can think of them, but don't get hung upon it.
I don't spend time going through them trying to find ways of extending the notes. I only go through them when there's another purpose in mind. But if I have a new thought I add a new note - and the link will be obvious.

This in hand, I'm trying Obsidian again, with a different approach.  The aim of my note-taking is to make sense of my creative stream-of-process thinking about my writing projects.  I was trying to meld keeping track of those random thoughts with my manuscript.  But using Obsidian just to keep track of the thoughts and as a reference to my writing in another process seems to be working better.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #458 on: June 18, 2020, 10:53 AM »
SOFTWARE review post:

I see soooooooo many software suggestions since I last checked here.  I just want to make some comments on them.

Seems the big headliner here is Roam Research.  I checked it out and it's certainly got some features I like a lot.  I absolutely do not like the cloud/service aspect of it.  I probably wont use it due to that alone.  But the features it has are very very nice.  That sidebar stuff, etc.  Basically, any feature in these software that offers nice visualizations of how the notes are linked together and/or being able to view multiple notes in some nifty way is the KEY feature for me.

Obsidian.  It's cool.  The best feature is that visual showing the links in a web like structure.  The rest of it is Markdown related editor stuff, common in all of them.

Zettlr.  I still use this primarily because, like Dormouse, I like that it just uses my note files and not much else.  No cloud.  However, it has no cool visualization for the links.  I also got into some annoying limitations with the theming of it....specifically, I had an issue where i wanted different elements to be different font sizes, but the line spacing would be the same for all elements and would be the maximum size of any element.  so if a header is huge and like 2" high, then ALL the lines would be 2" high.  SO that was annoying.  The other software like obsidian and Roam etc (most of them) are much better with this.

All these other options I think are quickly adding to many features.  they are all cool in a notetaking sense, but how are we supposed to decide?   

SO I still want something that works with plain ol md files, and can be imported/exported easily. 

But that linking visual is important to me.  Ideally, I'd like maybe two different softwares.  One, like Zettlr, to manage and edit the content.  But another that you can load all the files into and it can show you the links and stuff, I'd like that also.  The other features are bloat IMO, like all the programming tools, project management tools, etc.  Those are better in separate software, I don't need one software doing everything.  That's probably hypocritical coming from me.

IN that sense, what I want did work using Zettlr and Obsidian.  I loaded my zettlr files in obsidian and the web links were there, very nice.  The problem is this....in zettlr, it file ID is read from that specifically formatted date item that usually is inserted automatically.  Then there is a separate "title" that is more descriptive.  When that is imported into obsidian, you only see the date number in the web visual, no title.  This is rough as the screen is just full of numbers, useless.

The winner is going to be someone like zettlr who is committed to using ONLY md files to create their features.  but as you can see, even zettlr is hampered by the unique ID <--> title problem in this fashion, where a proper database would resolve this nicely...however a database would mean now you are outside the md files.  Also, dedication to keeping it open and free is an issue also.  All these guys want to make money on these (understandable) but that is usually done by making it a cloud/service thing. 

vnote...i tried this.  very nifty interface.  It doesn't appear to be zettel friendly too much, at least nowhere near as zettlr.  So it becomes a general purpose note taking software.  So i don't think it's a great fit.  But i like the interface very much.  The GUIs of these things are so beautiful overall, i have to say.  Remember back in the 90s?  infoselect?   ugh...

Mydna...another amazing interface.  also not zettel specific, so i don't think it will do what we want.  But I love the idea of "cards" and the beautiful way it is presented.



So I still feel i'll continue using zettlr as it doesn't make me nervous about price/cloud/proprietary-stuff.  But I'm very jealous of the nifty features in the various other software.  I really think someone can come along and offer a SEPARATE software for the visualization of the links of the md files, and that would be perfect.  No editing or managing of the files themselves.  SO i can be editing something in zettlr and visualize it in something else in another window.  That would be great.

The other benefit of this kind of system is that you can open all those md files in other markdown editors if there is something specific you are trying to do.  Some editors are better for programming, so you may not want to do that directly in zettlr.  But it won't affect your workflow at all because they are just md files.

on a really specific/technical level, the key thing for me is that ID/title issue in zettlr.  Whatever the clever solution to that is, that's going to take things to the next level.  That means now you have plain text files that can easily be used in any other software that can read them without affecting anything.  It's so close right now.

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #459 on: June 18, 2020, 11:19 AM »
IN that sense, what I want did work using Zettlr and Obsidian.  I loaded my zettlr files in obsidian and the web links were there, very nice.  The problem is this....in zettlr, it file ID is read from that specifically formatted date item that usually is inserted automatically.  Then there is a separate "title" that is more descriptive.  When that is imported into obsidian, you only see the date number in the web visual, no title.  This is rough as the screen is just full of numbers, useless.


They have an add on that alters those links - I haven't looked at it to know if it will solve your problem.

from - https://obsidian.md/features
Markdown importer: imports your Markdown export from Zettelkasten systems and Roam Research into Obsidian.


It seemed like it was to take care of the cases where the zettel id and the description were munged or separated.  If not, you could see what people think on the community.  I'm sure you're not the only one with this problem.  The features board is located at https://forum.obsidian.md/c/plugins/10

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #460 on: June 18, 2020, 12:57 PM »
But using Obsidian just to keep track of the thoughts and as a reference to my writing in another process seems to be working better.
I've not fully developed my process  - Obsidian's developing too fast to fix myself  - but I expect to do something like this. Some will have to involve Android,  so I look forward to their Android app. But the rest of the writing will work well in WriteMonkey. Effectively files shared between it and Obsidian (and whatever I use on Android). And gives my documents an extra backup in the WriteMonkey database.

It feels as if that gives me the full MSS, with as many sections as I want, in a single piece as well as multiple links to other stuff, notes etc.

Might also use Typora or Vivaldi for my Windows WYSIWYG in notes using a lot of markup. WriteMonkey's preview is through export.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2020, 01:24 PM by Dormouse »

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #461 on: June 18, 2020, 01:28 PM »
on a really specific/technical level, the key thing for me is that ID/title issue in zettlr.  Whatever the clever solution to that is, that's going to take things to the next level.
For me,  the solution is the ID being hidden. That means it's in the edit view but not the preview (or the WYSIWYG). All programs should be able to deal with that.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #462 on: June 18, 2020, 03:40 PM »
on a really specific/technical level, the key thing for me is that ID/title issue in zettlr.  Whatever the clever solution to that is, that's going to take things to the next level.
For me,  the solution is the ID being hidden. That means it's in the edit view but not the preview (or the WYSIWYG). All programs should be able to deal with that.
What do you mean the ID is hidden?  It's not hidden to me, or I don't know what you mean.  In zettlr, I thought the ID is right in the file.  For me it's the first line, I copy the ID and paste it there when I create the note.  Because I thought zettlr needs that ID to be somewhere in the actual note.  I wasn't aware its hidden or you can hide it, please tell me more.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #463 on: June 18, 2020, 04:12 PM »
What do you mean the ID is hidden?
I don't mean it is hidden; I don't know zettlr.
What I mean is that it can be entered in a markdown note in such a way that it isn't rendered. It can be hidden as a comment,  or in YAML front matter etc.
This gives you all the advantages of using the ID without ever having to see it unless you are in the markdown edit mode.

afaics,  this solution doesn't seem to be commonly applied. But to my mind it solves most of the problems.
I dislike having the ID in the title. It is too distracting unless the title is always hidden, but that can't be the case if you work directly with the files.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #464 on: June 18, 2020, 05:25 PM »
What do you mean the ID is hidden?
I don't mean it is hidden; I don't know zettlr.
What I mean is that it can be entered in a markdown note in such a way that it isn't rendered. It can be hidden as a comment,  or in YAML front matter etc.
This gives you all the advantages of using the ID without ever having to see it unless you are in the markdown edit mode.

afaics,  this solution doesn't seem to be commonly applied. But to my mind it solves most of the problems.
I dislike having the ID in the title. It is too distracting unless the title is always hidden, but that can't be the case if you work directly with the files.
yes, i agree 100% with you.  This is what I'm calling the ID/title issue.  IMO, this is the main challenge for the solution we are looking for.  Zettlr, in their effort to keep everything explicitly in the file, requires an unique ID in the file somewhere.  And you can edit the format of that ID (it gets automatically generated) so that zettlr recognizes it.  I did an experiment where I tried using a descriptive title instead of the unique ID, and zettlr wont work like that because it won't know what the file is.

These other softwares aren't as dedicated as zettlr and their IDs are managed in the software.  But that doesn't work for us who want a file-based system.

I agree with you I would like that ID hidden.  I don't know a way around it.  Another way I can do it is put the ID at the bottom instead of the top, but that's besides the point.  Perhaps if I investigate the zettlr features more there is a solution to this.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #465 on: June 18, 2020, 05:54 PM »
I agree with you I would like that ID hidden.  I don't know a way around it. 
Edit the markdown file so that the ID is commented out or put into front matter. Though that doesn't help if you review the files in edit mode.

Maybe zettlr will ignore anything hidden,  but I doubt it.

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #466 on: June 18, 2020, 08:04 PM »
I agree with you I would like that ID hidden.  I don't know a way around it.
Edit the markdown file so that the ID is commented out or put into front matter. Though that doesn't help if you review the files in edit mode.

Maybe zettlr will ignore anything hidden,  but I doubt it.

You can do it with [[ID|Text to be shown]] - I think that's the syntax.  Make the ID the link, and describe it with text.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #467 on: June 19, 2020, 12:35 PM »
I agree with you I would like that ID hidden.  I don't know a way around it.
Edit the markdown file so that the ID is commented out or put into front matter. Though that doesn't help if you review the files in edit mode.

Maybe zettlr will ignore anything hidden,  but I doubt it.

You can do it with [[ID|Text to be shown]] - I think that's the syntax.  Make the ID the link, and describe it with text.
OH YEA??!!  I gotta try this...

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #468 on: June 19, 2020, 12:59 PM »
https://www.reddit.c..._the_way_textnoteid/

Look at the last comment.  "Are you bent on using Zettlr?"
It got me thinking....

No I am not bent on using Zettlr.  I will use anything that has the proper features.  But the ID/note issue is critical as that determines whether your files can simply be transferred anywhere, or if there is more to the process of importing/exporting.  I don't mind a more complex program if it can import and export files harmlessly.  That is, if i can import a bunch of generic md files into it, and it can deal with it very well internally, without modifying, that is perfect. 

SO the problem with zettlr is that the ID feature is specific to its needs.  So now if i use it, all my files will have the zettlr ID in the file because i have to, not because i want to.  That's ok, but I am definitely not bent on using it.

wraith, your ID/title suggestion is not really working the way I'm thinking.  Here's the process i go thorugh:
- I create a note.  An ID number is automatically generated, and the filename is automatically whatever it is.
- Now, I change the filename to be words.  So that's a step I'd like to skip.
- Then, i need to insert the ID in the note somewhere so that it works in zettlr.  also a step that can be automated, ideally.
- Now, in the note, I also add the same title i used for the filename

that's a lot of steps just to deal with zettlr.  I'd rather just create a note, and all that is automatically accomplished, except for one part where i would manually enter a title.  But not all this back and forth changing the filenames etc.  That is not clean.

SO maybe zettlr isn't the answer.  I like Roam, but its online only etc.  and quite expensive.  and you can tell they have no intention to really be open sourced etc about it.


superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #469 on: June 19, 2020, 01:36 PM »
The other thing to keep in mind about these softwares....
A lot of them are geared towards programmers vs writers (like me).
I feel some of the programming features are getting in the way of writer funcionality.

Maybe the goal is to use two different softwares....one for writing/editing markdown.  get the best one with the coolest features.
another (like obsidian) to manage the files etc.

The problem with that is the internal linking.  It's almost like this can all be solved with yet a 3rd tool loll..
the third tool will be a database tools with the sole function of keeping track of the links and ID/titles in the zettel files.

then we don't have to be tied to these all in one systems.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #470 on: June 19, 2020, 01:58 PM »
If I am going down this road of piecemeal software...

I already like it as I like this editor:
https://www.qownnotes.org/

very customizeable, very nice features.  I'm not one of these "i need zero distractions GUI-wise when I'm writing" so I actually appreciate the panes and options around the sides.
It has the preview and raw panes, which is always nice.
it has github built in, so the files can be synced.

This is great.
Now, maybe obsidian can be used for the visual linking.
edit...be careful with obsidian.  It wants to modify all your links in order to "beautify" them...in other words, make it work well with its software.
We need something that can show the web of links without modifying the files.  SOmething standalone.  ALl it has to do is detect the links in these text files and create a visual out of it that can be clicked on, where it would open the note.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #471 on: June 19, 2020, 02:27 PM »
The problem with that is the internal linking.  It's almost like this can all be solved with yet a 3rd tool loll..
the third tool will be a database tools with the sole function of keeping track of the links and ID/titles in the zettel files.
From my perspective, Obsidian does this well. Not a database as such, but fast enough for all the processes. Obviously if you get hundreds of thousands of files, a database may be the best answer.
Doesn’t have block/bullet links,  but does have links to headings,  documents, files etc. More specific solutions are possible,  if you really need them but its not straightforward.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #472 on: June 19, 2020, 02:41 PM »
A lot of them are geared towards programmers vs writers (like me).
I think that's true up to a point, and many of the early users are programmers. But I think they all work well for writing. They facilitate planning,  world-building, referencing, storyboarding etc. For this,  I  find the Obsidian editor quite sufficient.
It's OK for the actual writing too, but using simple documents means you can use any editors you want.

For me,  Roam couldn't be as good for this because it would be less easy to use your preferred editor.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #473 on: June 19, 2020, 02:48 PM »
It wants to modify all your links in order to "beautify" them...in other words, make it work well with its software.
Not sure what you mean by that. Is it part of the import process?
I've never had Obsidian try to change anything.
You can simply have your files in a folder and open the folder in Obsidian; I wouldn't expect it to change anything,  though I've not tested it.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #474 on: June 19, 2020, 02:54 PM »
that's a lot of steps just to deal with zettlr.  I'd rather just create a note, and all that is automatically accomplished, except for one part where i would manually enter a title. 
Any document or editor. System wide shortcut to put in dateandtime for ID, and you could probably use Wraith808's suggestion as part of that shortcut so all you have to do is type your title. And then you can use the document in any system you want.