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Last post Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten  (Read 118201 times)

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #475 on: June 19, 2020, 09:28 PM »
The only idiosyncracy now with Obsidian for me is that if you create a document from a link, it puts it in the root folder so you have to move it.  Annoying, but I'm liking it a lot more.

Nod5

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #476 on: June 20, 2020, 07:52 AM »
This new email service Hey overview got me thinking about workflows.


Brainstorm
Hey's new features include a reply later stack, paper trail filter, editable email subjects, custom threading, custom notifications, attachments browsing/filtering, clips views, annotation/sticky notes on emails, anti spy pixel and more. I want much of that. My overall reaction: Traditional (gmail ...) email workflows sure are restricted and there is lots to improve!

Now, good workflows are crucial also for single person note taking systems (Obsidian, Roam, ...). So we should really compare them in three ways:

1. single note editing/viewing (markdown features, linking syntax, highlighting, autosuggest, shortcuts, plaintext/preview ... )

2. notes as interacting set (auto backlinking, global search/replace, transclusion, "whole book view", code project style side panes, ...)

3. workflows for daily use (timestamps, global history, global todo, work planning, todos, calendar, kanban style planning, github style issues, separate changelog/history files, spaced repetition helpers, quickly picking up work from the day before, scheduled cleanup sessions, ...)

One big question: what workflow tools and structures do we want inside the note system app and what do we want in separate apps or merely in the user's head?

[re: zettelkasten data structure graphic]
Step 1 is going to the inbox
Step 2 is thinking about where it should be once it's in the inbox
I can't get from step 1 to step 2 in most cases.  If I just do it without thinking about it, I get little idiosyncracies in how they're categorized.  So my notes never get from the inbox to the archive referenced.  It's a failing on my part, but I haven't found anything that really helps with that without it seeming like 'too much'.

A workflow issue! Inbox overflow is a super big risk here, just like with email. What note system features do we need to best handle that?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 08:01 AM by Nod5 »

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #477 on: June 20, 2020, 08:35 AM »
What note system features do we need to best handle that?
You need a flow control on the way in, matched to the pipe out, and an overflow to deal with issues. Critical that the inbox size is limited.

panzer

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #478 on: June 21, 2020, 01:12 PM »
Remnote - the first hierarchical spaced repetition note-taking software:
https://www.remnote.io

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #479 on: June 21, 2020, 06:02 PM »
I agree with you I would like that ID hidden.  I don't know a way around it.
Edit the markdown file so that the ID is commented out or put into front matter. Though that doesn't help if you review the files in edit mode.

Maybe zettlr will ignore anything hidden,  but I doubt it.

You can do it with [[ID|Text to be shown]] - I think that's the syntax.  Make the ID the link, and describe it with text.
OK I just tried is QownNotes and it works!  Awesome.
So I guess I should have this be the first line of all my notes.
I need some automation:
I need the number to be automatically generated, with a placeholder title, and the brackets.  Maybe the software has a shortcut for this already.  It has scripting so it's possible.
Next, I'd like a shortcut key where the actual filename is changed automatically to reflect the title I put in that part.

Also, could you guys give examples of how you start off your notes?  your headers, essentially?

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #480 on: June 21, 2020, 06:30 PM »
which markdown flavor is recommended for the best compatibility and long term usage?

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #481 on: June 21, 2020, 09:30 PM »
which markdown flavor is recommended for the best compatibility and long term usage?

I just use basic markdown- the only thing I add is tables.  The other stuff I've found that I don't need, and it works with everything.

I just had to share this - someone's graph.

https://www.dropbox....4%2016%20PM.gif?dl=0

It's pretty crazy that someone can have that indepth of a graph!

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #482 on: June 21, 2020, 11:49 PM »
which markdown flavor is recommended for the best compatibility and long term usage?

I just use basic markdown- the only thing I add is tables.  The other stuff I've found that I don't need, and it works with everything.

I just had to share this - someone's graph.

https://www.dropbox....4%2016%20PM.gif?dl=0

It's pretty crazy that someone can have that indepth of a graph!
holy cow...yea, that's called a crazy person.  lolllll

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #483 on: June 22, 2020, 12:04 AM »
https://forum.zettel...telkasten-on-windows

At the bottom you can see a fairly long discussion about the zettel software preferences.  I agree, I have been playing around with these for quite a long time, and I haven't found a good enough one where it makes me want to stick with it for the long haul.  I might agree that the sublimetext + plugins/scritping method might be the best, but in my case i'd need someone to share or sell the scripts and the custom stuff. 

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #484 on: June 22, 2020, 12:33 AM »
Regarding my question about headers, here is a discussion about it and an example. 

https://forum.zettel...tel-should-look-like

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #485 on: June 22, 2020, 01:53 AM »
OK this is what the crux of the issue is....

There are three things:
filename
Unique ID
Title

These three things need to be kept in sync somehow.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #486 on: June 22, 2020, 06:57 AM »
which markdown flavor is recommended for the best compatibility and long term usage?
As wraith808 says, the more basic the syntax the more likely all programs are to interpret it correctly.

But you have to think of what you want from it. You may not have basic wants. In which case you are working with probabilities and looking into future. Easiest to work with the flavours favoured by your favourite program.  ;D

afaics the GFM variant of CommonMark is the most frequently claimed, but those who claim it don't all have the same implementation and they all have extensions  - which you don't have to use.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #487 on: June 22, 2020, 07:00 AM »
Finding programs on Android isn't straightforward. First I would prefer them to concur with Obsidian. But then I need them to work with Typing Hero which has kicked out a few of my preferred apps.

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #488 on: June 22, 2020, 08:06 AM »
Regarding my question about headers, here is a discussion about it and an example. 

https://forum.zettel...tel-should-look-like

That's exactly what I use- except I don't put the Tags label beside the tags.


Finding programs on Android isn't straightforward. First I would prefer them to concur with Obsidian. But then I need them to work with Typing Hero which has kicked out a few of my preferred apps.

The biggest problem for me with finding something on Android (and the reason that I'm thinking of going back to the []() notation for links) is the [[]] notatation.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #489 on: June 22, 2020, 09:37 AM »
The biggest problem for me with finding something on Android (and the reason that I'm thinking of going back to the []() notation for links) is the [[]] notatation.
True.
It doesn't bother me because I don't actively use it on Android and it works in Obsidian whether it did in the originator or not. But Obsidian works with []() anyway, so it's safe to stick to that. I'm convinced [[]] will spread, but it is a coming standard and not an arrived one.
I stick with it because I find it quicker and easier to use.
And I've had enough work excavating consistency on Android without adding another filter.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #490 on: June 22, 2020, 11:53 AM »
Regarding my question about headers, here is a discussion about it and an example. 

https://forum.zettel...tel-should-look-like

That's exactly what I use- except I don't put the Tags label beside the tags.


Finding programs on Android isn't straightforward. First I would prefer them to concur with Obsidian. But then I need them to work with Typing Hero which has kicked out a few of my preferred apps.

The biggest problem for me with finding something on Android (and the reason that I'm thinking of going back to the []() notation for links) is the [[]] notatation.
Nice.  I was wondering about the tags.  Zettlr has this weird issue...if you put the tags in the yaml, they don't work if you ctrl-click it (which is supposed to filter the notes list to the tag clicked).  So for now, I am leaving the tags outside the yaml header where it works properly.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #491 on: June 22, 2020, 11:54 AM »
update, the Sublime zettel method that was fairly popular is no longer maintained with sublime v3.  So that option is not going to be around.

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #492 on: June 22, 2020, 12:01 PM »
You crossed it out... is that not true?

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #493 on: June 22, 2020, 12:56 PM »
You crossed it out... is that not true?
Correct.  I don't know where I read that, but I just tried on Sublime 3 and it works, and the site says it is actively maintained, although no changes since 2018.

The more I wrap my mind around all this, I think for window users the Sublime way is the most safe and ideal for the method.  It lacks one thing: visual presentation of the editor.  The other markdown or zettel specific software (like zettlr) can make the notes look very very pretty because they can have different sized lines.  So a header can be tall, and lots of white space.  All the lines in Sublime are going to be the same height, so you lose that aspect of the nice visual.

But the sublime way has some nice strengths.  Although the interface is a little complex due to forcing a normal text editor to fit this method vs creating an entirely new dedicated interface....despite that, the features implemented are very nice.  Zettlr has an issue where if you want to insert a link, it will only show the ID/filename which is just numbers, so impossible to search for words and link that way.  I don't see a nice way around it, and it makes the entire software very hard to use for that reason.  It's the ID/title issue again.

But with sublime, i think it handles that better.  A search box appears inline and you can search the words from there, it is much better.  That's a big deal and almost reason enough to use sublime.

The good thing, since they are just text files, you can use all these software simultaneously. 

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #494 on: June 22, 2020, 02:47 PM »
The good thing, since they are just text files, you can use all these software simultaneously. 

That's what I'm doing, and what my one requirement for trying any software is- that it has to work with plain text.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #495 on: June 22, 2020, 02:55 PM »
the reason that I'm thinking of going back to the []() notation for links) is the [[]] notatation.
Apparently there's an export plugin being developed to convert all [[ ]] to [ ]( )

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #496 on: June 22, 2020, 04:51 PM »
That will only help after exported though :(  I'm working on the docs in other tools while it's still in the obsidian vault.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #497 on: June 22, 2020, 05:36 PM »
If I was doing that I might be tempted to take the path of least resistance. It's not essential for what I do - I don't really use the links outside Obsidian.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #498 on: June 22, 2020, 07:00 PM »
the reason that I'm thinking of going back to the []() notation for links) is the [[]] notatation.
Apparently there's an export plugin being developed to convert all [[ ]] to [ ]( )
Which format is good for what?  [[]] is for internal zettel links, right?  I see []() used more broadly in other applications.  In the zettel context, they should be interchangeable.  Or obsidian should have a feature to deal with the two types.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #499 on: June 22, 2020, 07:01 PM »
Using Sublime....
I see this being the optimal solution for Windows users.  Zettlr is still good, but Sublime seems to have more useful features for the links and automation.

edit...and Obsidian is still the best collection viewer.  If I were skwire or someone like that, I'd make a third party tool specifically for visualizing a zettel collection, without any editing features.  Simply a  viewer.

The way i see it, there are a million markdown editors.  I bet Sublime will be the best editor to use overall, I can already tell.
There are NO viewers.  Obsidian is one, but it is not the primary feature and they are going to want to have people commit to their ecosystem it feels.  Same with Roam, which probably has the best viewing features.

Then, I can also see a use for a third tool that can do nifty BATCH processing and editing of the ID/title issues that may come up.  And since it's all text files, a lot of it can be done with regex presets or what not.  SOme kind of snippet tool can be handy here also, a lot of which is built into Sublime features, but also tools like PhraseExpress, etc.


I've been very hesitant to commit to zettel because i first want to know the tools I'm going to use.  I think this will work for now.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 07:12 PM by superboyac »