topbanner_forum
  *

avatar image

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
  • Monday February 17, 2025, 8:41 pm
  • Proudly celebrating 15+ years online.
  • Donate now to become a lifetime supporting member of the site and get a non-expiring license key for all of our programs.
  • donate

Last post Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten  (Read 575747 times)

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1050 on: February 13, 2022, 05:00 AM »
if you remember Liquid Story Binder. LOLLLLL
Oh, I do, I do.
And it is still on half price sale.
LOL indeed.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1051 on: February 13, 2022, 05:14 AM »
I don't see what the advantage is for the 'big file'. Once you do hoisting to work on parts (which I think is a great idea!), whether the notes are in any file/sequence or in an unordered basket (or network)... it doesn't matter, right?
You can work either way. It's a question of what works best for you and your system.

For me, it declutters the file system.
It incorporates a history, however it is prepared, and the history aids both memory and helps trigger some other ideas from the time it was done.
It is something of a Luhmannesque process where thought is applied to each component and how it relates to other components available at the time.
I find it a massive aid to portability.
All without any loss of the flexible linking with other atomic notes.

I think this is an example of someone overwhelmed by the sheer volume of notes. Which might not have occurred using a different process (ie I don't think it was just down to the program he used).
The Fall of Roam

The other gain of large notes, is that they are ideal for anything that is actually structured - like, for instance, a book. Which means one workflow system can be used for both processes.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1052 on: February 13, 2022, 06:05 AM »
In WF copy-pasting a bunch of text from a webpage makes a bit of a mess. That usecase is important for me. What do you do about it?
Oh, I rage inwardly, I seethe, I curse their incompetence, if I had a WF box, I'd kick it.

It's a bug. I'm convinced it's a bug. The concatenation bug. I discovered it and reported it at length when I first trialled WF. I need to have another go at them. Since you have discovered it, complain please.
It pops up in a number of circumstances - I'm very wary of working with WF except using OPML for import/export, and using paragraphs in notes. I am especially distrustful of copy/paste though it seems to work fine at times.

Then I do something else. Maybe use something else.
But using Workflowy there are two options.
1. Use the Chrome/Chromium Workflowy extension which allows you to paste the selected text anywhere into your outline. That preserves the formatting.
2. Images I will do indivisually or I will use Vivaldi's camera.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1053 on: February 13, 2022, 03:08 PM »
It's a bug. I'm convinced it's a bug. The concatenation bug.
And it's been going on a long time 2019
the same on Reddit

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1054 on: February 13, 2022, 04:44 PM »
I am especially distrustful of copy/paste
As I've probably written somewhere above, this is something that I consider an issue across all program pairs. Between any given pair, the behaviour is usually stable.
But between different pairs, that's not true:

I'm just testing Logseq. One page, in 'document' mode, I have typed four new paragraphs and a total of six new lines. I indented one paragraph. Copied (Ctrl-C) the page.
  • Paste into Word produces 10 paragraphs, but correctly picks up the indented lines.
  • Paste into FocusWriter, MarkText  correctly identifies the paragraphs and lines and the indents. But also sticks bullets in for each new paragraph.
  • Typora gets the bullets, but doesn't identify all the paragraphs correctly.
  • I think Obsidian is right.
  • Workflowy is correct for bullets in its note, but has no paragraphs. Paste into the outline and it has too many indents
  • Dynalist is similar but not identical.
OK, that's all from Logseq which is basically an outliner, even in document mode.

Or paste a small piece from Obsidian with two paragraphs and two new lines added to the first.
  • Workflowy outline counts them as four undifferentiated bullets. The note is accurate.
  • Dynalist outline has an extra empty bullet for the empty line signifying a markdown paragraph. Again, note is accurate.
  • Word and Atlantis have four paragraphs plus an empty one.
  • Logseq is accurate, as are FocusWriter, MarkText and Typora.

They were nearly all correct pasting a number of paragraphs from Word.
But Dynalist pasted them as lines in the note, whereas Workflowy correctly identified the paragraphs.

The whole copy/paste thing is unreliable unless you know the detailed circumstances, and is more likely to misfire when switching between RTF and plaintext programs. And programs of different types such as outliners and editors or word processors. (I suspect word processors are better sources because their paragraph and line markers are more explicit.)
And that's ignoring HTML and browsers.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2022, 05:00 PM by Dormouse »

urlwolf

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,837
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1055 on: February 13, 2022, 05:42 PM »
Amplenote can fold bullet lists and you can go wild with those. So if 3 heading levels are not enough, using bullets would get you a bit of the outliner 'features.'

It only exports as markdown. But I just copy-pasted a note into an empty libreoffice doc and it keeps all formatting beautifully.

This thing is a work of art.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1056 on: February 13, 2022, 08:02 PM »
Amplenote can fold bullet lists and you can go wild with those. So if 3 heading levels are not enough, using bullets would get you a bit of the outliner 'features.'
Problem is that the bullets don't have notes with them. My interest is in the text only not in the bullets - they're just anchors to move the text around. So Amplenote's bullets don't help at all.
What I get with Workflowy and Dynalist is import/export with OPML. Amplenote doesn't have that. And no colour, which I use a lot.

I don't think it works for me creatively at all. Better from a research/zettelkasten point of view. But limited view and organisation options. Only one tag per note afaics. It feels more like an Evernote or OneNote competitor than Logseq, Obsidian or Roam. Copy/paste from web worked well, but the time I used the web clipper the result was unusable.
Compare Amplenote and Evernote:
2022-02-14_01-43-16.pngI'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten2022-02-14_01-46-25.pngI'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

The four categories in the left panel are Jots (ie Daily Notes), Notes, Tasks and Calendar. That looks like a business oriented productivity app. Only one of those is aimed at me. I'd expect that sort of program to be smooth and reliable and have a carefully curated set of features. It may be a very good program, but it couldn't replace Obsidian or Workflowy (or alternatives) in my workflows.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1057 on: February 14, 2022, 01:40 PM »
copy-pasting a bunch of text from a webpage makes a bit of a mess. That usecase is important for me. What do you do about it?
Maybe use something else.
Copy/paste from web worked well, but the time I used the web clipper the result was unusable.
This has made me think about my custom and practice. I don't need to do this very often, and it's not usually important when I do. I maintained an Evernote account for a long time, because it had a good reliable web clipper. But I have an imense number of options and no system. Programs have drifted in and drifted out again.

I need some clips to be permanently available. That means local. But this is very rare.
I need a scrapbook. But it's not very important by definition. Preferably easily available.
Some clips I need for a period, but their value is short-term only. If they relate to a project, then I'd ideally have them easily available to programs I use in that project.
I've had a few issues (with Evernote) where images in a clip are only links and change or disappear when the site changes.

I have a Pocket account. I prefer Instapaper, but Pocket saves the original images. That makes a good scrapbook - BUT it doesn't work well on sites that require a login.
In my early markdown phase, I tried a number of markdown clippers. They worked - but turned out to me more of an inconvenience than they were worth.
I have Snagit. It works, but is overkill for casual use. Heavy duty need only.

There's also files. An ideal system would cope with those too.
Obsidian works well as a reception area for copy/paste and for files. So that's fine for desktop. And confidential.
I'll stick to Pocket for Scrapbook.
For the rest, and mobile, I think I'll revert to trying OneNote again. Systemically this time. I doubt I will ever not have a 365 account. Clipper seems okay. Linking works well. So clips should be available in an app that can access it.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1058 on: February 15, 2022, 06:50 PM »
Recently my productivity slumped. I became preoccupied with my systems again. It's not an unexpected stage in an evolving workflow. Two steps forward and one step back is better than one step forward and two steps back, and both are better than three steps forward which inevitably emerges as a delusion.

Where was I? Why did it happen?
I had reached the point of using simple plaintext files, often in markdown. I had programs that, for all their deficiencies, could be made to work. I always understood that markdown itself was a pernicious collection of time-bound prejudices but it was ubiquitous and there seemed no avoiding it.

I stumbled with creative workflows (usual), realised the utility, and availability, of mindmaps and then kanban. Plaintext filing preserved through Markdown-OPML identity. Which led me to longer markdown files (many advantages and closer to Luhmann's actual system than many small ones since each atomic note is embedded in a structure as well as having links), but also to outlines and outliners which I had never found especially useful before.

The value of outliners not being intrinsic to outliners alone, but being a disregarded and poorly implemented feature in markdown editors; viz. the visualisation and speed when moving sections. Plaintext editors ought to be better at this but they aren't.

But this made me more sensitive to conversion glitches. And raised again the issue of whether the md or opml file should take precedence. And raised the question again of databases, since outliners are databases and the opml merely a particularly valuable export format. Which in turn raised again the question of rich text and word processors; outliner > word processor > md/opml being more efficient than editor >< md/opml >< outliner > word processor > md/opml.

The Rock in the Road

And then the big stumble. I had always been unconcerned about whether I was typing in lines or paragraphs. Conversion at the next stage, should it be needed, was a minor issue since the next stage required deliberate thought anyway. But this is when most of the writing would be done in a single program (with occasional paste into it, when I'd done a little writing elsewhere). But back and forth needed more consistency. Cut and paste was not entirely reliable, and Workflowy - which I needed for the kanban - had a problem retaining the integrity of lines. Which meant standardisation on paragraphs. Which shouldn't have been an issue. Word processors have paragraphs; markdown has paragraphs. And many of the programs I use have configurable shortcuts.

But Obsidian was an obdurate unyielding obstacle. Many users appeared to have the belief that Enter=New Line (and New Paragraph was therefore Enter Enter) was part of the markdown specification, instead of it simply being an old code/line/text editor convention. Only a minor irritation in practical terms since I'd already stopped writing in most of the time. WriteMonkey was a bigger loss. But Typora and MarkText were fine (so long as I wrote in WYSIWYG mode). So was Logseq (though I had to edit a config file to achieve the same behaviour in bullet and document mode which is hardly the most user-friendly design). And naturally all word processors. FocusWriter is a funny one, according to my initial testing: its behaviour is fine in docx files, but txt/md files have only lines. I quite like FocusWriter, so that's a small pressure to use docx rather than plaintext.

While I'm on Enter Enter, what is it about the plaintext markup languages that so many instructions involve flapping at the same key and counting? I could only imagine they were invented by two finger typists who had never been taught, or accustomed to, touch typing. One key is a simpler target, but multiple keypresses takes longer and counting is always an additional cognitive load even if it becomes a habit or automatism.

Habit, automatism and muscle memory

The keypress issue might seem minor. I know what lines and paragraphs are, and how each program works. I can convert easily between the two. I can even do Enter Enter in one press (using the thumb and little finger of right hand) and Shift-Enter with one finger. And for most people that is probably true. But I'm a touch typing writer. My keyboard use goes beyond habit, and is at least an automatism and largely muscle memory. When I'm writing, my mind already has threads for content, words, grammar and punctuation; adding another thread for the Enter or Enter Enter question pulls in my conscious mind and disrupts the flow of the writing. It's actually a process disrupt.

So Markdown? Really??

I fully appreciate and agree with the arguments against word processor formats and in favour of plaintext. But also aware that my writing usually has to be converted to .docx or equivalent at some stage. That's writing not note-taking. And I have become increasingly aware that markdown isn't as virtuous as usually painted.

To come close to duplicating what a word processor file can do, it involves detailed understanding of markdown specifications, and also those for CSS, not forgetting HTML. That's time consuming. And though doc/docx has been criticised for having a number of versions, there are even more versions of markdown, CSS and HTML. Plus all the program configurations - the typical markdown editor is not designed to be friendly or accessible to the non-technical user. I've sometimes thought that Obsidian was designed as an equivalent to the Marine training obstacle course for aspiring programmers. As a structure it feels rickety with multiple points of failure. I know what such a construction looks like; I've watched Wallace and Gromit.

Next steps

  • Notes will stay as markdown/OPML. Large files rather than tiny ones.
  • Writing is best as OPML/docx. OPML is a plaintext format, so plaintext is always available and the final copy can always be converted and kept as markdown. Or it can be done at any point when Obsidian linking is wanted.
  • All files will be kept in Obsidian vaults.
  • All plaintext files will use Obsidian syntax ([[]], ![[]], #tags, (@tags added since they are used in a number of programs including Workflowy), **bold**, *italic*, <u>underline</u>, ~~strikethrough~~, ==highlight==)
  • Programs to type in to include FocusWriter, Typora, MarkText, Logseq, Atlantis, Word and Workflowy; maybe Dynalist.

In the end, it's only a mild system tweak. Files remain central, with databases used for WIP only. WriteMonkey is a major loss, though I could still use it for long files, where the folding is especially useful. Obsidian becomes more marginal in terms of regular use. Logseq enters; I'm not fond of it as an Obsidian competitor but it's fine to write in.

It's ironic that Word has entered. It's a very long time since I chose to use word processors for writing; when I wrote in rich text it was always in other programs; in practice, I don't expect to write in it now either. But giving up databases for long-term storage remains a very good idea.


« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 07:07 PM by Dormouse »

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 11,192
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1059 on: February 16, 2022, 11:59 AM »
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but if you're using Word and Markdown, you might want to also look at writage (https://www.writage.com/)

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1060 on: February 16, 2022, 02:21 PM »
you might want to also look at writage
Thanks. Yes. Want would be putting it too strongly.
I don't like markdown, but it seems hard to avoid it in plaintext, and I have never liked Word - but docx is even more ubiquitous and seems pretty robust across programs too. So do I want a bridge?

I did think of it, and installed a trial to look at it. Then disconnected it from Word, so I could be sure I was seeing Word rather than Writage.
I'm genuinely conflicted about it.
I even looked at the outliner app (DocxManager) to see if that would bring anything extra  But that seemed expensive without offering anything obviously useful to me.

One attraction was FocusWriter - which has a very limited set of formatting option, but quite sufficient for me in writing mode.
And always preferred Atlantis over Word in general use. I don't really like the way it manages Headings, but it's no wore than Obsidian. Word itself seems better.
Typora imports and exports docx quite happily.
It feels as if that will cover what Writage does. But I'm not sure.

The bit where Word stands out is the Review stage, but I don't know Writage adds anything to that.
Happy to hear any views if you have experience of it. Else I think I'll wait and see how it goes.

I'm not entirely reconciled to the prospect of using Word more, even though it appears to make sense.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1061 on: February 16, 2022, 05:51 PM »
To give an idea of how I've set Workflowy up, I'm attaching images of a mockup in kanban and in bullet modes.
The text bullets are mirrored to a text list with the same structure; this is the one that can be exported to end up as a markdown or docx document containing only the text. Writing or editing can be done anywhere and will be mirrored to the other.
I use emojis and colour text to give me a very quick overview of what is going on where.
WF kanban test kanban.pngI'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 11,192
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1062 on: February 16, 2022, 09:31 PM »
you might want to also look at writage
Thanks. Yes. Want would be putting it too strongly.
I don't like markdown, but it seems hard to avoid it in plaintext, and I have never liked Word - but docx is even more ubiquitous and seems pretty robust across programs too. So do I want a bridge?

I did think of it, and installed a trial to look at it. Then disconnected it from Word, so I could be sure I was seeing Word rather than Writage.
I'm genuinely conflicted about it.
I even looked at the outliner app (DocxManager) to see if that would bring anything extra  But that seemed expensive without offering anything obviously useful to me.

One attraction was FocusWriter - which has a very limited set of formatting option, but quite sufficient for me in writing mode.
And always preferred Atlantis over Word in general use. I don't really like the way it manages Headings, but it's no wore than Obsidian. Word itself seems better.
Typora imports and exports docx quite happily.
It feels as if that will cover what Writage does. But I'm not sure.

The bit where Word stands out is the Review stage, but I don't know Writage adds anything to that.
Happy to hear any views if you have experience of it. Else I think I'll wait and see how it goes.

I'm not entirely reconciled to the prospect of using Word more, even though it appears to make sense.

So I use writing outliner (the precursor to DocxManager) and Writage. Writing Outliner helps me keep projects straight and has the corkboard from Scriviner, but in Word where I have to do my freelance work. Writage lets me work in md when I want to, copy the formatted text to a Word document, and copy and paste Word formatted text into my markdown document. It's pretty seamless going from plain text to word which is cool as I don't like doing long form writing/editing in Word unless I have to.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1063 on: February 17, 2022, 09:10 AM »
I don't like doing long form writing/editing in Word unless I have to
Me too

Writing Outliner helps me keep projects straight and has the corkboard from Scriviner,
I think my Workflowy kanban should do this. Much prefer kanban to corkboard.

Writage lets me work in md when I want to, copy the formatted text to a Word document, and copy and paste Word formatted text into my markdown document. It's pretty seamless going from plain text to word
-wraith808
link=topic=48938.msg448203#msg448203 date=1645068678
I see how that's useful.

afaics, my central useful file format is opml; and I'll move between that and md and docx. I'm not sure I will ever need to do much  directly between md and docx  Will I want to type markdown into Word? I don't know. Still, I'll know to install Writage if I do.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1064 on: February 17, 2022, 09:23 AM »
My central system for everything writing related will be Workflowy.
The key features I'll use will be kanban, mirrors, colour, wikilinks

Any piece of work needs to be in three sections
- Text
- Planning and development including text
- Content
The text sections will mirror each other.
Bullets, if they exist, will be put as sub-bullets of an empty sub-bullet at the bottom of Planning and Development or, if necessary, below Text. (To try to stop them distracting me if I'm working on anything else.)

Content depend on what the piece is.
It could, for instance, be a few big research files from Obsidian exported through OPML. Should give me wikilinking with the Text and Planning.

Long-term storage, research etc in long markdown files, accessed from Obsidian and/or Logseq
Text file review and editing in Word.
Writing in a number of programs including FocusWriter, Typora, Logseq
And all the planning and development in Workflowy.

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 11,192
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1065 on: February 17, 2022, 07:38 PM »
I think my Workflowy kanban should do this. Much prefer kanban to corkboard.

I'm using Scrum, so it works for me. I just need my backlog there, and a section for the current iteration.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1066 on: February 18, 2022, 05:14 AM »
I'm using Scrum
I don't know it, but it seems very different to me. And complex.

I'm always fascinated by individual differences, and how something that works for one person, simply doesn't fit another.

I recognise that purely within myself. I've tried many kanbans, including those in Obsidian and Logseq, but found none of them helpful in practice until WF. Some of that is the virtually instantaneous switching between board and outline views. I also love the way I can zoom in or out by changing which bullet is the starting point. And, while I always loved Scrivener's corkboard, it never made me more productive, though I thought it should. The more sophisticated sticky note imitation glitched too.

But the kanban/WF bit is really only the middle stage. Shouldn't say stage - the parts are interacting all the time.
The 'starting' one is Content. That's where Mindomo and Obsidian live.
With Text being the last. That has to be linear. I'll try to forget the probability that Word will be there having to be used in everything I write instead of the titbits it has been receiving.

I also love that OPML works in all stages. Though the OPML file used in the content stage isn't useful in the kanban stage and vice versa. Editors needed in all stages too.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1067 on: February 18, 2022, 06:33 AM »
I've tried many kanbans, including those in Obsidian and Logseq, but found none of them helpful in practice
Actually, I think Plottr is best viewed as a kanban. But rigid and inflexible compared to WF.

wraith808

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2006
  • **
  • default avatar
  • Posts: 11,192
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1068 on: February 18, 2022, 08:54 AM »
I don't know it, but it seems very different to me. And complex.

It's not. It's just another variation on Kanban. The difference is Kanban is continuous where Scrum is iterative. There are complications you can add to it (same with Kanban), but at its root it is simple.

When I first started on my project for my world, I decided on an iteration length (2 weeks). I found high level things I wanted to get accomplished. I prioritized them, then broke them down into stories and pointed them by seeming effort required. Then I looked at what I could get accomplished in two weeks, going in priority order.

At the end of two weeks, I looked at what I'd done and delivered, and how many points it was. That helped me to see what I could get done in an iteration. Rinse and repeat, loading the backlog with things that I come up against as I went along. It helps me to plan and reach deadlines, but be agile in how I do it.

Given, I do it at work, so it's not a stretch. But I also have done Kanban at work, and it's not a lot different other than instead of iterations, you have WIP limits based on the size of the stories rather than a bucket to fill every iteration.

Kanban is generally used for support work, where Scrum is used for Greenfield development, but either can be used for either.

A good video on using it to develop worlds:


Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1069 on: February 18, 2022, 03:15 PM »
I had
Scrum is iterative.
I had a quick look at the video; it seemed quite long, so I only looked at a bit. But it looked as if Scrum is about getting things done?

I know that's how kanban is usually used, but what interests me is purely the picture. The types of graph that Vonnegut used to draw. He applied his, mostly, to fiction, but I believe the approach should be applied to any form of writing - the presentation of the results of experiments, legal reports, academic papers, pre-publication reviews of said papers, magazine articles. Everything has expectations in terms of length and structure - and sometimes they are demands more than expectations. Before I start a project, I expect to have a clear idea about form and shape. What I like about kanban is that I can use it to give me the views I want to track how it's developing (it will diverge more often than not, sometimes that's better but sometimes I can see that it will fail before the end). I can use it to plan, and I can use it to track.

And I need to be able to pick it up again after a long gap. So a very visible format will help with that. Nothing helps with research gaps because the situation has often changed when it's picked up again.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1070 on: February 18, 2022, 03:17 PM »
I noticed updates today from Logseq and Obsidian (insider). But I've no particular interest in looking at either.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1071 on: February 19, 2022, 07:08 AM »
Also notice Tangent Notes. Very early stages. Looks okay. Local files, will work seamlessly on Obsidian files. No idea what advantages it intends to have. I think I saw another one around too. Still looks as if there will be more and more of them.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
I will actually try to do a zettelkasten
« Reply #1072 on: February 19, 2022, 07:14 AM »
Am thinking I will actually give zettelkasten a go.
I researched it thoroughly previously, but didn't try to follow all the rules.
  • Was unsure about best software to use
  • Was unsure about its range of utility. How to set limits. Use it for everything? But Luhmann's note-keeping was very focused. I think I have clarified my ideas on that, particularly helped by reading many of his notes (available online; most still only digitised rather than OCRd.) They're very academic shorthand. Not like Ahrens' account at all. And that makes sense to me. Not masses of work, except in thinking about the links.
  • And never completely decided about the folgezettel. Seemed to make sense despite the arguments of the original software brigade. As my mind pondered though, I came to see it as essential. Not just in linking but in sketching out future publications.

So how to do it?
afaics, folgezettel are just pointers in an outline. So lots of programs can do that. The key is the very manual requirement to decide exactly where to place each note.
Which programs?
I don't know wikis, but assume they can.
Otherwise, I see no reason why they can't be done in an outliner - Dynalist or Workflowy say. Put bullets in the right sequence, wikilinks available, notes as bullet notes. Also tagging. Should work.
Obsidian? Single file ordered list with notes below. Using wikilinks for the note view without actually embedding them. I think I'll try that. Most users would just use a MOC list with atomic notes in the vault; that would work easily too, but won't be so quickly convertible to OPML.
One folgezettel advantage of an ordered list is that each note has a unique number, even if it has to be derived by following the hierarchy back instead of having it in the note.

I have a date/time shortcut available in any program I type in anyway so that will make any simple title unique.

Dormouse

  • Supporting Member
  • Joined in 2007
  • **
  • Posts: 1,961
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1073 on: February 20, 2022, 07:07 AM »
Writage lets me work in md when I want to, copy the formatted text to a Word document, and copy and paste Word formatted text into my markdown document. It's pretty seamless going from plain text to word which is cool as I don't like doing long form writing/editing in Word unless I have to.
It makes sense. I tried it again. Testing Obsidian syntax.
Writage fails on highlight and strikethrough, but Typora gets it (MarkText doesn't).
So Writage and copy/paste with some syntax glitches, or Typora with import/export?
for pure text, whch is what I have most of the time, it makes no difference at all - and I have no need of either Typora or Writage.
Copy/paste is more convenient - but only if it works reliably. And if I do formatted text, highlight, strikethough and underline are needed as often as bold/italics. So probably Typora has the advantage for my use.

Markdown incompatibilities feel worse than the days when Word was very expensive and all the notWords had their own particular incompatibilities.

superboyac

  • Charter Member
  • Joined in 2005
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,347
    • View Profile
    • Donate to Member
Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1074 on: February 20, 2022, 04:29 PM »
Dormouse, what are you trying to accomplish?  I can't tell.

Are you trying to figure out which software to use to write/edit your notes?  How do you read the end result of your notes?  For example, I don't really care much which program i use to write my files.  Zettlr, Obsidian, vs code....basically all the same to me.  What i care more deeply about is how i read them.  And I read them using the Emanote software i have mentioned, which converts my markdown files into a static website.  If not for that, I think I'd care more about the other tools, as I'd have to read them through those tools.  And if that is the case, the main thing would be the "preview" panes they all have.