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Last post Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten  (Read 222080 times)

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1125 on: May 10, 2022, 05:01 PM »
I'm very happy with logseq so far.
That's great. Given the people who like it, I'm sure it's good and is, as you said, developing rapidly. Had more developers than Obsidian even before raising the $4m. The basic structure is very Roam-like. I've simply never go on with it well enough so far, but it's the one Obsidian alternative I check out regularly. Actually, I do keep an eye on Zettlr; I'm not in its core user group (which I see as post-grads and academics) but seems to me to be the most writer biased of the PKM apps.

Plus neovide, a nvim frontend, that does something really interesting with the cursor (check this: https://youtu.be/Vd5AACp6GG0?t=112) because it has better typing latency.
I do see what you mean. Looks very neat. Of course, I don't actually use emacs, vim, neovim or alternatives and use the mouse by preference when I can. And have never typed fast enough to have an issue with latency; even if I did hit an issue, I'd probably be sitting  back thinking while it untangled itself. I'm a fast typist so I assume that I simply spend too much time thinking and not typing.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1126 on: May 10, 2022, 05:47 PM »
Very interesting observations and links everyone!!

update on my end.  All this zettel and markdown efforts has led me ultimately to a place where I use it specifically to make static generated sites out of it with just my curated set of notes and ideas.  It's the best way to make a good looking website, so easy.  And you just open up obsidian, make changes, and website is instantly updated. 

urlwolf

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1127 on: May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM »
Logseg publish exist too, and it's free. I haven't tried it.
The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?

Who is measuring this?

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1128 on: May 11, 2022, 01:04 PM »
Logseg publish exist too, and it's free. I haven't tried it.
The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?

Who is measuring this?
40 was questioning this a few pages back, loll.  RE the productivity.
Being beneficial?  You can look at it in different ways.  I have been notetaking rather heavily since the late 90s.  I can tell you a lot of it is just dealing with my own anxiety/stresses and it is therapeutic in that sense.  I argue with myself in my writings until I come to a conclusion.  Reading it later is not the greatest thing, it is mostly rambling.

But then I have curated notes, more along the lines of Luhman and zettel.  And those definitely are productive, as they lead to tangible results.  Like writing a finished book.  Or using the ideas to put together some other deliverable....a project, a script, etc.  I write all the steps out.

I don't think overall all the notetaking is very productive.  There is an element of OCD going on here.  A lot of paralysis by analysis.  So I am aware of that, and am always trying to be more reasonable with my approach so I'm not just doing OCD things.


Overall, I find great value to the practice of notetaking.  But only if it leads to a finished result, or towards a stated goal that can be accomplished in the short term.  Other than that, I feel like I'm in OCD territory.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1129 on: May 12, 2022, 07:25 AM »
what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
In the main, I don't believe that the people doing this are productive, apart from the mass production of notes.
Most appear to be students; probably the most driven and usually highly performing students anyway. Many appear to have the belief that it will help them learn (though that's not what Luhmann was about); and treat Ahrens' Smart Notes book as their bible even though it conflates his own ideas (developed largely around student note-taking) with those of Luhmann.

Luhmann lived an exraordinarily focused and regular life and was extremely disciplined. His system was perfected to optimise his productivity, and building on the usual reading and writing work typical of academics. He turned it into a form of painting-by-numbers (so rapid writing at the end). It was a form of academic mass production where the usual academic clay was sorted and then formed into bricks, with an index so that he could quickly find the bricks he wanted whatever he decided he wanted to build in the future.
It's a system I can see working very productively for any academic with his level of discipline (and ability to spot the best clay and craft good bricks).
But not so much for students, and not at all for anyone who doesn't actually have an intention to produce anything at the end of it.

Personally, I've never had that regularity, nor that style of discipline. Neverhteless, I can craft the bricks and the system makes it easy to drop and pick up as desired, with no loss of previously done work. So that's great.

How much effort is it to keep notes?
I don't know. People do appear to be producing prodigious quantities of them.
For me, I don't make a fraction of the notes that most seem to make (though I do have a very good memory, and my own workflow has always been heavily based on that). I have only ever made notes as an essential component of doing something, and even then usually only a fraction of what most seem to believe is required. Even when I was a student, I might make 4 lines of notes, and noticed others with 4 pages or even more; I never could understand what they thought they were going to do with them.

Who is measuring this?
I'd like to believe that everyone doing it will be measuring it for themselves. No way of avoiding bias.
Trying to do matched samples for group work would be fraught with problems, and I don''t think it could be made to work. A longidudinal single-case approach to carefully selected groups might work, but would be expensive to conduct.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1130 on: May 12, 2022, 06:09 PM »
Paragraphs, Lines and Enter
This remains an issue. If someone writes paragraphs only (ie no single new lines within the paragraph), then there may be no effective difference between a line and a paragraph - everything will depend on the settings of the export/conversion process. Depending partly on the use of copy/paste and the settings used within that.
Given the lack of a reasonable combine and export option in Obsidian, I decided to do a little testing. Two md files, one with an empty line between the lines (ie markdown definition of a paragraph) and one without (ie lines only), exported into docx

Inspire Writer - exported the no empty line file "correctly" (from my usage point of view) into paragraphs, and the one with markdown paragraphs into paragraphs with an empty space between the paragraphs.
iA Writer - exported the empty line into paragraphs, and the no empty line file was concatenated into a single paragraph.
Typora was the same as iA Writer. As was Writage.

In other words, Inspire Writer interprets markdown lines as if they were paragraphs - which is the way many people intend. But iA Writer and Typora stick rigidly to the markdown standard paragraphs. I was a little surprised by Typora because when I enter directly into it, the Enter = New Paragraph, but quite reasonably it regards that just as a keyboard adjustment for WYSIWYG.

Which means, for me, that I'd have to add an extra process (double spacing lines in text editor) if I wanted genuine paragraphs without adjusting keyboard behaviour to double Enter every time I pressed Enter should I type in Obsidian or iA Writer and export through iA Writer, Writage or Typora. Writing in Typora always exports as I want, as does writing in Inspire Writer. And writing directly into docx obviously works perfectly.

The combining options in Inspire Writer work well; in iA Writer the embed system export requires combining files one at a time - functional but quite high friction if done often, and no preview.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1131 on: May 13, 2022, 04:58 PM »
Given the lack of a reasonable combine and export option in Obsidian
While I was looking at it, I thought I ought to work out what I think is currently the best workflow for longform writing in Obsidian. The lack of tools for a single file approach makes it hard to recommend that purely. So, ..

A separate vault (or folder) for the long project.

Plugins required:
  • Bartender (for manual sequencing of files in the file explorer)
  • Pandoc (possibly + Obsidian Enhancing Export)
  • Novel word count (for visible word or page counts for each file or folder)
  • Better word count or File info panel (for word counts including a count for selected text, in the current note; and other info in the FIP)
  • Note Refactor - (optional - to make files easier to split)
  • Hover Editor (to give the option to do all the editing via the large document rather than the separate notes)

The basic technique is to have a single note that contains all the scenes, chapters etc as embeds, and then to export that document into the desired format.

Workflow(s) - there's a number of options.
One would be to write from the beginning using the large note with embeds and headings. I feel it is likely to be better to only do that at a later stage.
Easier to start in the conventional Scrivener/Ulysses way with separate scene/chapter notes in the explorer. With bartender, and using folders, it's easy to see everything in sequence and with their word count (via Novel Word Count). Once you are ready, you can select all the required notes and paste into a new note as links, and then make those links embeds. The bartender sequence will not be preserved, but, if the embeds are made into headings, the outline will allow them to be moved around.

Export is straightforward, but attention needs to be paid to the line/paragraph distinction.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1132 on: May 13, 2022, 06:27 PM »
Also notice Tangent Notes. Very early stages.
Just updated it. Does feel interesting. Very visual, card style interface. I could imagine working in it. Especially if I wrote many short pieces or short notes.

urlwolf

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1133 on: May 14, 2022, 12:14 PM »
Tangent is awesome. My flirting with logseq and neovide didn't go well. I wasted a lot of time. This is such a crucial app to get right that sometimes I spend too much time searching. But I'm happy I found Tangent. This forum delivers!

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #1134 on: May 16, 2022, 10:44 AM »
Tangent is awesome
Once you have spent enough time with it, I'd be interested in your ideas of its strengths and weaknesses.
It feels too early in its development for me to use it (and my current use cases don't seem ideally suited ot it), but I have liked the look and feel when I've looked it over.