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Messages - urlwolf [ switch to compact view ]

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1
This one is also interesting: https://www.flowpilot.co/
'Start with the end in mind' sounds solid. Didn't try it for a project.
Tangent feels extremely good. They have solved a giant problem: graph view is useless on other tools. Not here. You build up the graph as you think. And see only the  parts you have just used.

It's very similar to how I used big paper to think.

2
Tangent is awesome. My flirting with logseq and neovide didn't go well. I wasted a lot of time. This is such a crucial app to get right that sometimes I spend too much time searching. But I'm happy I found Tangent. This forum delivers!

3
Logseg publish exist too, and it's free. I haven't tried it.
The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?

Who is measuring this?

4
I'm very happy with logseq so far. Plus neovide, a nvim frontend, that does something really interesting with the cursor (check this: https://youtu.be/Vd5AACp6GG0?t=112) because it has better typing latency. I don't like modal interfaces though. And the many trips to 'esc' are ditracting.

5
Aryan here kills it explaining how to go from outlines (your workflowy use case) to focus mode (your AIwriter use case, including typewriter experience) with logseq:
https://www.youtube....aYSbvGgLo9s&t=1s

I thought of you. This might skip one step in your process.
You can highlight in multiple colors with a plugin. And add comments (like in the review part of word's track changes or gdocs 'suggestion' modes) with this plugin: https://github.com/v...plugin-comment-block

I stopped looking at logseq for about a year. Oh my, have they made progress. This company is a rocket. They have something very unique.

6
looks like logseq is making really fast progress. I'm amazed at what this team can do. Obsidian has a good community that pumps out plugins, and some look very interesting, like this one https://github.com/kevboh/longform that could be an alternative to scrivener.

@dormouse, I definitely understand what you are going through with so many tools. I spent the last two days doing some similar search, and I even considered going down to paper zettelkasten. I'm probably moving away from amplenote and into logseq, but starting my zettel from scratch there. Oh, and I now read on an ereader (Onyx air note 2), which adds a lot of constraints.

Where do you publish what you write?

7
Try dolphin? The preview part is a bit 'second thought' but it works

8
I'm looking for a text editor that does auto-completion for markdown links (that is, filenames) in the same project? This must exist, but I haven't found it.

You know how in notetakinng webapps like amplenote, roam etc (also obsidian) you can type '[[' and get a list of notes in the same folder to link to? I want that in a text editor. Tried plenty, couldn't find it. Must be linux.

The reason I want this is because I've found gemini: protocol and I want to publish a digital garden (zettelkasten) there. You link constantly when writing in a zettelkasten, so without that functionality I can't work.

Forgot: it cannot be electron-based. I want fast typing latency.

9
One fantastic perk of SMF forums is that you can use 'js disabled' browsers such as netsurf to browse. The typing latency on netsurf is like nothing I've experienced before. And it's tempting to use as a notetaker

10
Logseq doesn't seem to have versioning per block. Which other of the clones does? Roam is expensive for just this feature...

11
Did anyone find an editor that keeps versioning per sentence? That is, you can go to old versions of every sentence.
I think roam has that, but I dislike roam. Something simpler would be best. Native ideal. IntelliJ IDEs have local versions of changes for every file, but it's humongous.

12
Amplenote can fold bullet lists and you can go wild with those. So if 3 heading levels are not enough, using bullets would get you a bit of the outliner 'features.'

It only exports as markdown. But I just copy-pasted a note into an empty libreoffice doc and it keeps all formatting beautifully.

This thing is a work of art.

13
In WF copy-pasting a bunch of text from a webpage makes a bit of a mess. That usecase is important for me. What do you do about it?

14
I like Workflowy for two reasons: its wikilinks and mirror systems are completely effective even without being part of an outline structure.
And because it also contains such a structure, it is very suitable for producing an output that is intrinsically linear.

I don't see what the advantage is for the 'big file'. Once you do hoisting to work on parts (which I think is a great idea!), whether the notes are in any file/sequence or in an unordered basket (or network)... it doesn't matter, right?

There's a bit of cognitive overhead because though hoisting makes this unnecessary, we keep trying to refer to the position the note is in in the long file. "Ah, that was at the beginning" (uses scrollbar to go there). Teleporting with search and hoisting makes that model not so useful. Or is it? I've never used a giant outline, I have 3400 notes right now so it'd be big.

I did use a giant text file for a while with an editor for a while. I had this 'mental reference' of where in the file the note was, which I think is an unnecessary appendage given how easy teleporting is. Or clicking tags. Or navigating the network. Unless the order has meaning in itself (you are writing a book or a big doc), not sure why the notetaking tool should keep order.

15
Dormouse, it looks like your usecase is a very long file, like a paper. That's better written in an outliner. These notetaking apps believe in splitting ideas in 'atomic' chunks that you can link to each other.

How you go from the network to a finished 'big work' (a giant blog post, a book) is an exercise for the reader. An easy way: just concatenate notes. One per heading. This is also what scriverner does. Scrivener (and for documentation Archbee, gitbook etc) have the concept of 'book', these notetakers don't. Some don't even provide a way to explicitly tell it the order of notes. Zim (my former fave) had folders and network but there was no easy way to sort the notes on a folder, or to export  folder as a single txt or .doc.

There are people writing on the value of hierarchies (book TOC) and networks (3rd generation notetaking) for years. The answer seems to be you can have both.

Example:
https://fortelabs.co...nowledge-management/

I never cared for the 3-pane evernote view. Always disliked evernote, even before they ruined their product about  5 years ago. But amplenote 'works' for me. It's the only one of these 'networked notetakers' that:
  • is fast
  • has mobile
  • is not buggy
  • you can live-edit with a collaborator
  • you can add comments to the text (call it footnote, rich or not)
  • has versioning
  • has no investors behind and aligns with user needs

It kinda discourages you to go too deep in an outline, and I think that's a good thing.

16
Also interesting on that site:
First-generation apps (2000-2010): OneNote (2003), Evernote (2008), Workflowy (2010)

Second-generation apps (2010-2018): Paper (2015), Bear (2016), Notion (2016), NoteJoy (2017)

Third-generation apps (2019-present): Amplenote (2019), Roam (2019), Obsidian (2019)

The first-generation apps tend to be weaker on mobile, but two of the three have immense overall feature sets at this point. In the case of Evernote, the breadth of its feature set was arguably a direct cause of its decline.

The second-generation apps are (mostly) the ones that people are excited about today. Notion has been the runaway success of the bunch thus far, given the breadth of possibilities afforded by their embedded, data-type-aware tables.

17
Interesting performance comparison:
https://www.noteapps..._app_considerations_
Note count: 2000

18
I will look at the footnotes bit sometime. But, from what I read, it seems as if it only works when published on the web. I don't do that, so as a Utilitarian, it wouldn't be of immediate interest to me. I also have a feeling that their thinking about it is wrong. Just from the way they talk. But I will get there and look.
I'm with you that talking about how brains work is lazy writing. I'm very happy with the feature though and I think I just realized it helps me writing better, with core ideas as text and 'supplemental material' as rich notes. The text should flow without using those notes. And because you can embed the notes on anything (wordpress, etc), this feature may extend to everything you write.

It's not a flashy feature, and it's easy to copy, but I suspect they are onto something here!

19
This is very interesting:
https://alloy.dev/essays/formative.html

They seem to be in for the long run. More so than most of these VC funded companies that (as the article describes) have competing incentives

20
@Dormouse, great catch on the website for notetaking comparison being influenced by amplenote. Didn't occur to me to check. Brilliant, clear thinking on your side! This is a beautiful example of Julia Galef's 'scout mindset'

I'd say reevaluate amplenote. They 'invented' rich footnotes. And I think it makes A LOT of sense. I never realized that sometimes my full notes (with the corresponding overhead) were just footnotes.
This is it:
https://www.amplenot...ng_depth_write_in_3d

Worth getting deeper into this, as it might be a completely new paradigm. I'm just starting to grasp its significance.

21
Since I posted that I 'solved' the lack of decent graph view in zim, I realized I don't need the network all that much.

I found a product I really like: amplenote.

Pros
* The rich footnote is revolutionary as a communication method: hoover a note with cursor, you will see the text
* OCR image text in full text search
* pdf indexed in search
* exports version history https://www.noteapps...port#compare-preface
* moving fast, not buggy
* Decent collaboration: https://www.noteapps...tion#compare-preface but not real time nor comments on text in a note
* offline: https://www.noteapps...line#compare-preface
* killer CEO programmer. Similar to notejoy
* automatic task priorization (never worked for me but ok worth trying)
* good mobile app
* can be a CRM with notes as reminders
* calendar so can do timeblocking
* good privacy
* integrates google sheets
* Hide task x days
* value prop: get from ideas to done things
* has  rich footnotes (notes on notes). So the thinking can stay clear in the note, and evidence is a footnote
* has clipper
* works as 'readmelater'
* bootstrapped, 5USD per team member, no guests
* founder is a productivity superstar, CEO Bill Harding
* backlinks have context
* shared tags (for teams) for collaboration
* tweet and youtube embeds
* also spreadsheets
* can link to a specific section (not a paragraph though)
* hierarchical tags are interesting
* real time collaboration

cons

* latency
* no tables unless embedding gdocs https://www.noteapps...bles#compare-preface
* no graph view. Top 5 feature request
* costs money. But free beta with nag screens https://www.amplenot...m/freemium_beta_plan
* Server in the US

22
Great job Dormouse; DC is a wonderful place for people who really care about their tools for thought.
BTW reading this: https://moritz.digital/cas/

My 'problem' with zim not having good network visualization is 'solved'. I found a way for zim to use markdown, so I can now open the folder in say obsidian and see a proper graph. Kinda using obsidian only for visualization, zim for generating the notes and writing (thanks to best latency in class).

23
"Before the 2020s, a note was just a note. A note was something you took, used, and tossed.

Let's call this: "Churn and Burn".

But now, in the Age of the [[Linked]] Note things are different. Now notes can grow and evolve with other notes, to form
a living system of related thoughts that you can develop throughout your lifetime.

Let's call this: "Know and Grow".

THE ANSWER ISN'T MORE NOTES... IT'S BETTER NOTES."
https://www.linkingyourthinking.com/

I find that very interesting. Yeah, notetakers have taken a leap forward and we are only starting to understand how PKM works.
Funny that there are people selling products in the 1000s of $ to teach you how to organize your notes. Not endorsing the course, E haven't even finished reading the landing page :)

24
In fact, zim has the least firepower (in devs) of all these 'new apps' that take notetaking to a next level.
Comparing it with roam, athens, or remnote is unfair as those apps have millions in the bank and hordes of developers. Not to mention an active community.

Zim is written mostly by one dev, Jaap, who is really amazing and dedicated, but has a fulltime job and does zim on his spare time! The tech stack (python instead of JS/electron) makes it very difficult to implement dynamic graphs. There are great libs for electron but none that I know of for python.

Jaap has a strong sense of design and simplicity. It has made zim a monumentally useful app. And it's still the fastest UX of all notetaking apps. His decision to stick to desktop and not doing electron crap IS the killer feature.

It's only when reaching 1000s of notes in zim that I'm starting to value more the advantages of a dynamic graph. I know people here moved to obsidian for the graph but ended up not using it very much. I was of the same opinion (graph is a gimmick) but now with many notes I would love to link them graphically.


25
I have found one potential problem in zim. Graph view is a second class citizen. It's static (can't filter, search, group etc), it's slow to render (>10s for large graphs), and the lead dev doesn't have plans to make  it better.

Given the tremendous competitive pressure in this space, this could be enough for me to move to an alternative. After years of adding notes, thinking with the graph view starts gaining value.

Problem is most of the competitors are browser based/electron, and that means typing latency is very high. I find typing latency very important (measure it with typometer from Pavel Faltin). If you can convince yourself that it doesn't matter, then by all means you an use any browser-based tool for writing... I can't :)

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