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Last post Author Topic: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten  (Read 8243 times)

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #125 on: November 06, 2019, 03:55 PM »
you know what i want to see now?  just examples of other people's zettels...

I'm reading all these theories and recommendations, pages and pages....I just want to see samples.  If i can see what makes a single thought, and a bunch of them, to see how it all ties together, that would be way more helpful than all this theory.


Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #126 on: November 06, 2019, 04:37 PM »
Examples of Luhmann's notes are available. Somewhere. I've seen pictures but not transcripts. University of Bielefeld holds the whole collection I think.

Index cards, but a completely different system without notes are Nabokov's cards on which he did most of his writing. I think you can see some of them too. But that is different.

I'm sure you can track down some current examples by frequenting zettelkasten.de. Whether they are good examples there's no way of knowing unless the keeper has proven productivity and quality using them.

I agree completely that it would be much easier to understand what they are doing if you could examine examples.

I'm not concerned about other people's systems. I can see what will work for me, and I understand why. I'm happy to pick up useful hints from other people, but I'll judge whether they will apply to me. Big question for me is whether I have the discipline, but I'm hopeful because it is one workflow. My system will be different to many because it will probably contain a substantial number of distinct and separate networks (that's how I'll achieve one workflow) and will be based on the file system and rtf documents. If I do make a go of it I'll be happy to show samples in five years time :)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 04:54 PM by Dormouse »

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #127 on: November 06, 2019, 06:25 PM »
I'll be happy to show samples in five years time
/donationcoder_alarm: set-for-time_5y

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #128 on: November 07, 2019, 04:03 AM »
/donationcoder_alarm: set-for-time_5y

 ;D

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #129 on: November 07, 2019, 11:56 AM »
I'm just going to start this.  I can feel myself going through paralysis-by-analysis.  I promised myself to move on when that happens.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #130 on: November 07, 2019, 03:18 PM »
I'm just going to start this.  I can feel myself going through paralysis-by-analysis.  I promised myself to move on when that happens.

I'm sure that's the right thing to do. Learn enough to know where and how to start and then go. Revise as necessary. your best way is unlikely to be exactly the same as anyone else's.

kfitting

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #131 on: November 08, 2019, 04:59 AM »
Yep... just dive in.

One thought per note is one of those things that I strive for, but rarely achieve. When you create a note, you rarely know what specific thing you are writing about. That comes in time and as you re-analyze a topic you'll start to see where different facets come in. Also, the archive should reflect your mind: topics you care about will be detailed and have one thought per note. Topics you dont care about will be generic and more nebulous. PHD's have specific knowledge... why do we think we can achieve such specificity for every one of our notes?

My number one rule?

Refactor, refactor, refactor.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #132 on: November 08, 2019, 11:35 AM »
One thought per note is one of those things that I strive for, but rarely achieve. When you create a note, you rarely know what specific thing you are writing about. That comes in time and as you re-analyze a topic you'll start to see where different facets come in. Also, the archive should reflect your mind: topics you care about will be detailed and have one thought per note. Topics you dont care about will be generic and more nebulous. PHD's have specific knowledge... why do we think we can achieve such specificity for every one of our notes?

I don't see the problem with achieving one thought to a note. It's up to you what constitutes a thought.
The big disadvantage of generic and nebulous comes with linking. Very many notes can link to a generic note, but only a very small % will be ones you want to follow whatever you're trying to do.
I don't see any difference between a PhD or a minor new difference either. The quality of the thought might vary. The specificity might vary. Knowledge should vary. But shouldn't be a problem with having one thought.

There could be a photo of a sheep in a field.
A very small child might think nice furry animal.
A slightly older child might think Shaun!
A butcher might think ready soon.
A farmer might think selenium deficiency? (mostly noticing the lush grass).
A thought is a single focus for what was in the mind. More foci simply means extra notes.
There's no reason to push yourself to have all the thoughts you might possibly have unless doing that is your purpose.
Revisiting the note or topic and adding new notes with new thoughts when there's a reason to is sufficient.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 04:49 PM by Dormouse »

tomos

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #133 on: November 08, 2019, 04:28 PM »
I'm not sure I fully understand 'refactoring' in this context -- I see it defined as changing/improving code without changing its external behavior.
Tom

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #134 on: November 08, 2019, 04:51 PM »
I'm not sure I fully understand 'refactoring' in this context -- I see it defined as changing/improving code without changing its external behavior.
I didn't appreciate the specificity of the coding reference. Simply used the same word assuming a mathematical origin as in factor again. I've reworded my reference to it. Thanks.

kfitting

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #135 on: November 09, 2019, 05:10 AM »
Tomos: that's the definition. In this context, I often start a note, then as i think more about the topic and revisit it I'll see different facets within what I've written. So I reorganize the information, splitting some into new notes that are more specific, but none of the original information is lost.

The point is that you don't have get the one thought per note right the first time.

tomos

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #136 on: November 09, 2019, 06:12 AM »
Tomos: that's the definition. In this context, I often start a note, then as i think more about the topic and revisit it I'll see different facets within what I've written. So I reorganize the information, splitting some into new notes that are more specific, but none of the original information is lost.

The point is that you don't have get the one thought per note right the first time.
thanks both, I just wasn't really familiar with the word tbh
Tom

IainB

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #137 on: November 09, 2019, 08:05 AM »
@tomos:
thanks both, I just wasn't really familiar with the word tbh
Well, being a pedant, I wasn't comfortable with this usage either, but I tried what Dorothy did in the Wizard of Oz - she clicked her heels together three times and said "refactor" each time, and all became clear in the morning when she woke up - and it did for me too!
This Dorothy trick incidentally was apparently the origin of the modern verb "to be woke", as in "He/she/it is 'woke'." When things become clear to one, not quite as sudden as in an epiphany, but more like a bubble rising through oil. Not a lot of people know that, though the concept was hinted at in Lewis Carroll's writings:
“Must a name mean something?” Alice asks Humpty Dumpty, only to get this answer: “When I use a word… it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.” - Through the Looking Glass(1871), by Lewis Carroll.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #138 on: November 10, 2019, 06:02 AM »
I find it interesting that plain text / markdown solutions like Zettlr keep the files in a database.
WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).
When I look at WM3 it seems to have all the features required for a zettelkasten, but I've never seen it mentioned in that context. Though it's very rarely mentioned in lists of markdown editors either.

I'm noticing that different types of notes may have different and predictable structures. Vacillating between using templates and autotext insert.

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #139 on: November 10, 2019, 04:21 PM »
WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).

It is?  I've never used it that way.  I always work on local files.  This is the first that I've heard of that.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #140 on: November 10, 2019, 06:24 PM »
WriteMonkey is the same (though documents can be bound to a file).

It is?  I've never used it that way.  I always work on local files.  This is the first that I've heard of that.
The database is local. But a database nevertheless. I don't know if WM2 is the same.
Your documents are stored in database file in the default local application data directory.

Windows: c:\Users\[user]\AppData\Local\Writemonkey 3\writemonkey3_sheets
OSX: /Users/[user]/Library/Application Support/Writemonkey 3/writemonkey3_sheets
Linux: /var/local/Writemonkey 3/writemonkey3_sheets
Use Open Folder with Database file from Command palette to open folder containing database files.
Working with text files
Writemonkey 3.0.10 (August 2019) has basic support for text files. Documents stored in database can additionally also be stored as regular text files.

Bind existing document to a text file
Right click existing document name in document pane and select Save as file & bind to document from a context menu. You'll be presented with a regular Save As dialog, where you can choose a target directory and a file name. (WM will suggest the file name based on current document name, but you can change it to anything you want.)

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #141 on: November 10, 2019, 11:44 PM »
Like I said, I've never used it that way, even on WM2.  So there must be an option to open local files.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #142 on: November 11, 2019, 03:17 AM »
there must be an option to open local files
It will open (and save) files. Most opening methods bind the files, but some don't.

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #143 on: November 11, 2019, 02:52 PM »
there must be an option to open local files
It will open (and save) files. Most opening methods bind the files, but some don't.

And I guess that was my point.  It's an option, not a requirement.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #144 on: November 12, 2019, 04:41 AM »
there must be an option to open local files
It will open (and save) files. Most opening methods bind the files, but some don't.
And I guess that was my point.  It's an option, not a requirement.
I may have to recant. I can't actually find a way to open a file without it being bound into the database.
You can unbind the file - but that simply discards the link.
You can always edit the bound file with another program - but Writemonkey will give you an alert dialog when you try to open it again.

Text files can also be dragged into repository. New item with file's text is created but there is no link between the file and repository item.
I tried this and it was just a text copy in the repository.

So, afaics, Writemonkey works only on what is in its database. Open and save a file might look like a local file operation, but it isn't: it's importing to the database, binding the file and then saving the bound copy from the database.

Dormouse

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #145 on: November 12, 2019, 10:49 AM »
I think that WriteMonkey's file binding means that it can be regarded as part of a file based system. Also strikes me as similar to Texthaven in some ways - one long text file database displaying separate notes.

I wouldn't have been put off using the program anyway. I'm quite happy using databased programs for specific purposes. So long as the results can be saved into separate files.

superboyac

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #146 on: November 12, 2019, 02:40 PM »

There could be a photo of a sheep in a field.
A very small child might think nice furry animal.
A slightly older child might think Shaun!
A butcher might think ready soon.
A farmer might think selenium deficiency? (mostly noticing the lush grass).
A thought is a single focus for what was in the mind. More foci simply means extra notes.
There's no reason to push yourself to have all the thoughts you might possibly have unless doing that is your purpose.
Revisiting the note or topic and adding new notes with new thoughts when there's a reason to is sufficient.

thanks, that was a helpful example.  man.  i am way too single minded, or literal.

wraith808

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Re: I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten
« Reply #147 on: November 12, 2019, 05:40 PM »
there must be an option to open local files
It will open (and save) files. Most opening methods bind the files, but some don't.
And I guess that was my point.  It's an option, not a requirement.
I may have to recant. I can't actually find a way to open a file without it being bound into the database.
You can unbind the file - but that simply discards the link.
You can always edit the bound file with another program - but Writemonkey will give you an alert dialog when you try to open it again.

Text files can also be dragged into repository. New item with file's text is created but there is no link between the file and repository item.
I tried this and it was just a text copy in the repository.

So, afaics, Writemonkey works only on what is in its database. Open and save a file might look like a local file operation, but it isn't: it's importing to the database, binding the file and then saving the bound copy from the database.


I'm using it that way currently. I wasn't going off what you were saying.

In order to show this, I'm uploading a short video.  I figure that will explain what I'm saying better than words at this point.

https://my.pcloud.co...vEyKuqpsjz4nQJUkq5PX

(I tried uploading it to the forum, but it seems to act strangely when I do, redirecting to a blank page after the upload is complete, so excuse the pcloud link for it)

Dormouse

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OK.
First thing is that the dropdown menu is very different to mine. It looks like a typical v2 menu (latest v2.7, no further development), where I'm using the completely rewritten v3 (currently 3.0.10). They're not feature identical.

The second is that it seems to be acting completely as a bound file.