Do we have any musical people on DC?

[Edvard]

@40Hz:  I swore off Fender amps since the last one I tried.  Can't remember what it was, but it was loud as hell at less than 100 watts and rang like a gong...  Just like my Gramp's '53 Deluxe (which I still have and give periodic TLC ).  Perfect compliment to that Fender guitar tone if that's what you're looking for, but I prefer to think of Fenders as the platform everybody else dove off of.  Yeah, I'm aware that they're all Bassman underneath, but I love the soul that happens when you start tinkering...

My dream amp would be to find a burnt-out Peavey twin cab (lurv the twin sound) for next to nothing, gut it and roll my own two-channel: An AC-30 or Ampeg V2 preamp circuit for the clean channel, and the Lead channel from a Mesa Mark IV for kroonch.  For power, I dunno;  I'm torn between the raw power of 6V6s, smoothness of EL34s, or maybe I'd toss the tubes out and frankenstein in the power section from a Sunn Beta Lead 100 (drool).

Or... if I had a grand or so burning a hole in my wallet, I'd wait until Bugera is allowed to sell Magicians in the states again, if ever.  
Look familiar?
http://www.bugera-am...GICIAN-INFINIUM.aspx
Do we have any musical people on DC? Do we have any musical people on DC?
I thought so... and so did Mesa Engineering's lawyers (or so I've heard)

[mouser]

I wonder if we should ask Mouser about the possibility of getting a Musician/Musical Instrument/Music Tech child board at DoCo?

I am not a musician but I love reading threads like this, people talking about their hobbies, projects, passions.
I don't want these discussions hiding away in a sub-board, in fact i'd like to see more of them in the Living Room.

[40hz]

I wonder if we should ask Mouser about the possibility of getting a Musician/Musical Instrument/Music Tech child board at DoCo?

I am not a musician but I love reading threads like this, people talking about their hobbies, projects, passions.
I don't want these discussions hiding away in a sub-board, in fact i'd like to see more of them in the Living Room.

-mouser (December 02, 2014, 03:09 AM)

@musix people at DoCo - Does Mouser have any idea what he's getting himself into with people like us?

@Mouser - Thx. And here I was worried that people might be getting bored with us.

[wraith808]

I wonder if we should ask Mouser about the possibility of getting a Musician/Musical Instrument/Music Tech child board at DoCo?

I am not a musician but I love reading threads like this, people talking about their hobbies, projects, passions.
I don't want these discussions hiding away in a sub-board, in fact i'd like to see more of them in the Living Room.

-mouser (December 02, 2014, 03:09 AM)

I understand your point- but to give a different view; with so much in the living room, everything moves down and disappears... and we forget about such threads.  Also, the noise in the living room gets loud   I look at it the same as if we were in person... people would gravitate to groups to talk based on interest, and move around... sometimes venturing back to the main conversation.

Just giving that bit of a viewpoint.

[40hz]

^ I guess we could always take turns being the thread's designated bumper.

[superboyac]

Anyone seen or been a part of any nifty one-man musical shows involving good use of portable technology?  It's always something on my mind as I get busier and forming/practicing with groups becomes more difficult.  The solid state drives have really improved the ability to play sampled instruments, which is very handy, and they have made live music much easier in general.

I remember the 80s and the roland drum machine one man shows.  Now, we can have better sounding loops and stuff, but also better abilities to improvise the loops on the fly.  Some useful software for this I've been meaning to toy with:
Ableton live (apparently, this is good for looped stuff or live playback)
Cantabile (I really have my eye on this one, since I use a lot of VSTs and samples.  You can create set lists and the interface is built for what I'm describing).  I've personally never seen it used myself, or anything like it, but there are many people using this out there.

[edit]
oh! you know what would probably work?  Using a wireless playstation controller (DS4) and being able to control a live situation with it.  I've already used it for emulators, and it works very well.  I once was looking for a midi controller to do this sort of thing, but what i really need is a bunch of buttons and mouse stuff that can be assigned keyboard shortcuts, I don't need midi things.  Using midi and configuring it to do non-musical things on the computer is a huge pain.

[40hz]

Looping has come so far it's almost it's own musical idiom and discipline these days. I have a huge amount of admiration for people who have mastered samples and looping for live performance. Tom Dolby does it brilliantly. I have zero interest in doing it myself. But I love seeing other people who do it well. A lot of one-person street performers are into it big time.

I've even seen a few one man shows where the performer was also controlling an entire multimedia environment along with the music in a manner far beyond that of the average DJ. Cool stuff. Again, not something I personally want to do. But I respect people who are trying to push the envelope and technology as far as possible.

 

[superboyac]

Looping has come so far it's almost it's own musical idiom and discipline these days. I have a huge amount of admiration for people who have mastered samples and looping for live performance. Tom Dolby does it brilliantly. I have zero interest in doing it myself. But I love seeing other people who do it well. A lot of one-person street performers are into it big time.

I've even seen a few one man shows where the performer was also controlling an entire multimedia environment along with the music in a manner far beyond that of the average DJ. Cool stuff. Again, not something I personally want to do. But I respect people who are trying to push the envelope and technology as far as possible.

 

-40hz (December 02, 2014, 01:55 PM)

https://www.youtube..../watch?v=cNIQrIXlrNw
Wow!  That is very impressive, (Dolby). 

The other reason why I like this tech is because it's like a shortcut for writing music.  Writing notes on ledger is great practice, but extremely time consuming.  Entering it midi into something like finale is also time consuming.  Now, I can basically record all the parts and that's my "written" music.  I can take that to a studio and say "play this" to the musicians instead of giving them paper.

[40hz]

https://www.youtube..../watch?v=cNIQrIXlrNw
Wow!  That is very impressive, (Dolby).

-superboyac (December 02, 2014, 03:04 PM)

Yup! TD is awesome! I've posted these previously but they're worth revisiting. First is Europa. What's really impressive is how minimalist his setup is here. But he still does a creditable performance with it. That setup is well within the financial resources of the average musician. Like burlesque queen Gypsy Rose Lee so famously said: "It ain't how much you've got. It's how you use it."

Then there's his multimedia extravaganza/retrospective The Invisible Lighthouse where he pulls out all the stops and goes state of the art. This is the trailer for the show:

[superboyac]

i wish I had more videos of my performances, but I was just watching this and it's basically exactly what I wish i could play like.  Dave Mckenna is a new discovery for me and has blown me away.  I have always wanted such a balance of virtuosity, accessibility, and rhythm.

[Vurbal]

As much as people who can create music that way impress me - and don't try telling me they aren't musicians if you want me to take you seriously - in the the wrong hands, technology can be extremely frustrating. Back in about 1999 I went to see Edgar Winter in a small club. In fact, I was there with another bassist. Needless to say, we were both disappointed to find out all the bass lines were sequenced.

We were also shocked at how few people showed up to see him. Winter was there on a double bill with Dr. Hook, who went on first. After Dr. Hook finished, a couple hundred people got up and left. Only about 10 of us stayed to watch Edgar Winter.

Not surprisingly, it wasn't a great show,  but I got to see his brother a few months later - in about the same size club - and it was as good a show as I've ever seen.

[40hz]

^It does seem weird he'd do that considering music is such an interactive and improvisational art form. The give and take between the various band elements (bass/percussion/instrumental/vocal) is what it's all about. Or at least it is to me.

I'm guessing it may have been for reasons of economy. Or possibly to provide a framework for him to perform in. Lifestyle choices are starting to catch up to a lot of the Old Guard. And short-term memory is one of the first things to go. Maybe he's in that camp?

[superboyac]

^It does seem weird he'd do that considering music is such an interactive and improvisational art form. The give and take between the various band elements (bass/percussion/instrumental/vocal) is what it's all about. Or at least it is to me.

I'm guessing it may have been for reasons of economy. Or possibly to provide a framework for him to perform in. Lifestyle choices are starting to catch up to a lot of the Old Guard. And short-term memory is one of the first things to go. Maybe he's in that camp?

Saw the same thing happen with Van Morrison some years back. We went to see him in a club. About 50 people showed up. He did two songs, took a 20 minute break, and came back on stage drunk off his ass. We all left about 40 minutes later when he stopped the show and started in on a long drunkard's expletive-peppered rant about the music industry.

A few of of us felt so bad for him that we went back the next night. Turned out we were the only three in the entire place. (Word gets around fast.) This time Morrison came out a half hour late - and was already completely smashed when he did. The club owner comp'ed our drinks, gave us our ticket charge back, and we left.

Very sad.

-40hz (December 03, 2014, 10:13 AM)

Why do you care if Van is drunk, wouldn't he sing the same regardless??  (I kid, I kid)

Very interesting stories about Van and Winter.  Wasn't Edgar always in the technology stuff (I'm thinking Frankenstein, love that song)?

I've been listening to the old guard complain about the music industry recently, the latest one from Vince Gill.  But I just can't seem to understand what exactly their complaint is about?  I'm not trying to argue with them, I just can't see what it is exactly that is bothering them.  I feel it has to do with the fact that you can ONLY make money if you play what they consider "sell out" type music.  Is that what it is?  Then there's guys like Neil Young who seem to be hocking audiophile snake oil, I don't get it.

[40hz]

^I think a lot of it is them seeing some of the new corporate and marketing analysis "inspired" acts coming in and walking off with all the nickels. Such is life. I'm sure the musicians of their parent's era mostly felt the same way about them and their music.

Seriously. I have strong opinions about what constitutes "good" music. But I also have zero patience with musicians who are into the whole "Why do people listen to  _____  and not my stuff?" thing. My feeling is, if what you do (or want to do) doesn’t attract an audience, either: (a) stop playing; (b) play for your own enjoyment in your own living room; or (c) go perform in a park for free - and maybe people will eventually start to come around.

Music is art. But it's also showbiz. And one of the most important rules in showbiz is: NEVER EVER PUBLICLY TRASH SOMEBODY ELSE'S ACT! Probably best not to do it in private either. Because it always gets back sooner or later. Always.

I think you don't get it because there's nothing to get. It boils down to somebody else getting the applause and money - and not them. The fact is, many of the Old Guard have blown their fortunes - and are now finding themselves in their mid to late 60s completely broke. That just might have a little to do with it.

[Vurbal]

I suspect it was an economic thing - he was touring with Dr. Hook and playing small clubs in the middle of nowhere. I also suspect it had something to do with his love of synthesizers as well.  You can hear that all the way back to They Only Come Out At Night.

Honestly, that wasn't even the biggest problem in his band. His guitarist was a wannabe late 80s hair metal god with as bad a case of LGD (lead guitarist's disease) as I've ever seen. He pulled his head out of his backside during Frankenstein and the one White Trash song they played, but otherwise he was just off on his own all night.

I'd like to think a decent bassist could have helped, but LGD is often incurable in my experience. In any case, I'm not sure Edgar cared that much at the time. At least I didn't pay much to see him, and honestly Dr. Hook was a lot better than I would ever have guessed.

[40hz]

^I met Dr. Hook ages ago when they were at the top of their game. Checked into the hotel I worked at the night I was on the front desk. Nicest bunch of guys I ever met. Friendly, funny, articulate, and polite. One thing came across big time was how much they were enjoying what they were doing. A few people in the lobby recognized them and came up. The Hook crew were every bit as pleasant (and patient) with them as you could possibly hope for. Signed some autographs. Even passed out some free tickets for the next night's show.

During their stay I got to talk with them a bit. I complimented them on their music. Ray Sawyer immediately jumped in and said a big factor in their success was that the band had never been afraid to work with and perform music written by outside songwriters like Shel Silverstein. He said a lot of groups make the mistake of insisting on doing everything by themselves. I found that really interesting, and surprisingly humble.

I think this song of theirs touches on SB's earlier question:

lyrics here

DR. HOOK LYRICS
"Everybody's Makin' It Big But Me"

Elvis he's a hero he's a superstar
And I hear that Paul McCartney drives a Rolls Royce car
And Dylan sings for millions
And I just sing for free
Oh everybody's makin' it big but me

Oh, everybody's makin' it big but me
Everybody's makin' it big but me

Neil Diamond sings for diamonds
And here's ole rhinestone me

Oh everybody's makin' it big but me

Well I hear that Alice Cooper's got a foxy chick
To wipe off his snake, and keep him rich
And Elton John's got two fine ladies
And Doctor John's got three
And I'm still seein' them same old sleezoes, that I used to see

Oh, everybody's makin' it big but me
Yeah everybody's makin' it big but me

I've got charisma
And personality

Oh how come everybody's makin' it big but me?

(What's wrong with that?)
(I don't see nothing wrong with it Ray)

Well I paint my face with glitter
Just like Bowie does
And I wear the same mascara
That Mick Jagger does
And I even put some lipstick on
But that just hurt my dad and mom

And everybody's makin' it big but me

Oh, everybody's makin' it big but me
Yeah everybody's makin' it big but me

They got groupies for their bands
And all I got is my right hand
And everybody's makin' it big but me

Everybody's makin' it, makin' it, makin' it
Everybody's makin' it big......ME!

Like I said. Great bunch of guys.

[40hz]

Honestly, that wasn't even the biggest problem in his band. His guitarist was a wannabe late 80s hair metal god with as bad a case of LGD (lead guitarist's disease) as I've ever seen.

-Vurbal (December 03, 2014, 11:28 AM)

+1! Right up there with Roger Fisher in Heart's original lineup.

[superboyac]

During their stay I got to talk with them a bit. I complimented them on their music. Ray Sawyer immediately jumped in and said a big factor in their success was that the band had never been afraid to work with and perform music written by outside songwriters like Shel Silverstein. He said a lot of groups make the mistake of insisting on doing everything by themselves. I found that really interesting, and surprisingly humble.

-40hz (December 03, 2014, 11:58 AM)

There's a lesson here somewhere...

Fun group!

[40hz]

@40Hz:  I swore off Fender amps since the last one I tried.  Can't remember what it was, but it was loud as hell at less than 100 watts and rang like a gong...  Just like my Gramp's '53 Deluxe (which I still have and give periodic TLC ).

-Edvard (December 02, 2014, 02:10 AM)

Seriously? I wonder which one. My GF owned several. She currently possesses a late 70s Lead 75 1x15 and a spankin' new '65 Delux Reverb 1x12 They can be loud (if you crank them) but they can also purr like kittens. The Lead 75 has a toggle to drop it down to 15 watts - and (ironically) has a lead preamp stage that can be cascaded into the normal preamp stage. Foot-switchable too. (Hmm...I wonder who they got those ideas from, right?)

There's always the option to add a power attenuator to the mix if you're one of the "dimed in the bedroom" crowd. But since she's a low to medium volume type of guitarist, we never felt the need. Besides, plugging a pedal into the front jack is a lot easier if you ever do need that full out sound at reasonable levels. More flexible too, as we all know.

We also know any guitar amp packing more than 50 watts makes no sense to build at all. Even much over 25 watts is pushing it. With today's sound technology, those high wattage behemoths and gigantic backlines of yesteryear are just soooo yesteryear. Unless you're into guaranteed ear damage. Or possible electrocution.

Perfect compliment to that Fender guitar tone if that's what you're looking for, but I prefer to think of Fenders as the platform everybody else dove off of.  

Sounds about right to me!

Yeah, I'm aware that they're all Bassman underneath, but I love the soul that happens when you start tinkering...

So do I. And there's certainly a lot more to life than "classic" sound and vibe. Tinkering? I say: Keep at it!

[Vurbal]

Honestly, that wasn't even the biggest problem in his band. His guitarist was a wannabe late 80s hair metal god with as bad a case of LGD (lead guitarist's disease) as I've ever seen.

-Vurbal (December 03, 2014, 11:28 AM)

+1! Right up there with Roger Fisher in Heart's original lineup.

-40hz (December 03, 2014, 12:06 PM)

Isn't that the truth.  Here's a tip for any aspiring rock stars. If you you have a vocalist anywhere near the ability of Ann Wilson in your band, she will always be your primary focus,  and don't ever forget how lucky you are to have her. Journeyman lead guitarists are a dime a dozen.

[40hz]

If you you have a vocalist anywhere near the ability of Ann Wilson in your band, she will always be your primary focus,  and don't ever forget how lucky you are to have her.

-Vurbal (December 03, 2014, 12:40 PM)

Agree 100%

To be a good guitarist takes some talent, some education, and a devotion to mastering some techniques.

Pure unvarnished vocal talent, however, is a gift from the gods. Be respectful.

[wraith808]

If you you have a vocalist anywhere near the ability of Ann Wilson in your band, she will always be your primary focus,  and don't ever forget how lucky you are to have her.

-Vurbal (December 03, 2014, 12:40 PM)

Agree 100%

To be a good guitarist takes some talent, some education, and a devotion to mastering some techniques.

Pure unvarnished vocal talent, however, is a gift from the gods. Be respectful.

-40hz (December 03, 2014, 01:01 PM)

As a vocalist, I'd actually disagree.  People think it's about innate vocal talent... but I'd go the route that it's a combination of qualities that make those timeless vocalists.  Many of these qualities can't be taught... but they can be developed.  And many of them are not the classical technicalities - some vocalists are actually known for their peccadilloes.

From Johnny Cash to Leonard Cohen- there are examples all over the place.  And how many times have you heard better singers take on Hallelujah... but fall short of Cohen?

Though I most emphatically agree with you about Ann Wilson.  I saw her in one performance at an awards ceremony, and initially, her sister had all of the focus, and why not?  She was dressed down in all black with a deep brimmed hat that hid her face.  But when they started performing, it was like a star had descended to light her up.  And this in her 60s?  When it's only by nostalgia that I can listen to her contemporary Stevie Nicks at this point.  I don't know what she did to preserve her voice, but it seems in all honesty more powerful now.

[Vurbal]

Just for clarity's sake, I don't think most vocalists are all that special, in fact I have a better voice and more skill than most. Ann Wilson is in an entirely different league. She could just as easily been the world's greatest operatic soprano. Even beyond her voice, her skill is second to none, but that voice by itself would put her almost in a class of her own.

[wraith808]

Just for clarity's sake, I don't think most vocalists are all that special, in fact I have a better voice and more skill than most. Ann Wilson is in an entirely different league. She could just as easily been the world's greatest operatic soprano. Even beyond her voice, her skill is second to none, but that voice by itself would put her almost in a class of her own.

-Vurbal (December 03, 2014, 02:58 PM)

I'd totally agree... on both points.  And I think the vocal competition shows put the truth to that.

[40hz]

but they can be developed.

-wraith808 (December 03, 2014, 02:47 PM)

If they're there to begin with. That is something, unlike a musical instrument, that can't be bought. Some vocal abilities can't even be developed. It's there or it's not. And no amount of hard work or sincere effort will get it for you.

I sing too. I'm not bad. Three years with a university chorale that ran the gamut from Gregorian chant to Cole Porter taught me a lot about performance and various vocal technique. It made me a vastly better singer than I was before. But I would never consider myself a vocalist first and foremost.

I suspect (no proof to offer on this btw) that probably something like 70% of all people could be taught to sing adequately, with a higher percentage of them being women rather than men. But that's not the same thing as considering them 'singers', any more than being able to accompany yourself on a guitar in a workmanlike manner automatically earns you the title of 'guitarist.'

There's that difference between talent and skill; and craft and art. Difficult, if not impossible, to define. But oh so obvious to almost anyone when they encounter it.

That's what I mean by a gift. Superb singers are gifted rather than merely talented.

(Does any of the above even make sense, I wonder? )