I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.

[Dormouse]

If we're talking about serious work and serious productivity, aren't laptops fulfilling this purpose?

-dr_andus (October 27, 2014, 06:12 AM)

Not for me.
Not as light, not as flexible, and assumes that all your 'writing' is entered on the keyboard.

I have a high quality, light Logitech bluetooth keyboard. I can use it with my phones & tablets depending on what I have with me.
I find that, for a lot of the time, my writing implement of choice is the stylus so the keyboard is optional, depending on what I am doing.
Screens on laptops aren't as good, unless you spend huge amounts of money.
I have a Windows ( laptop/tablet combo. Quite light. Works well for what it is. But I don't use it very much because I'm less productive with it, and it is much less convenient to get out when I'm out and about and have just the odd 5 or 10 minutes for a bit of work.

But going down the tablet route does mean completely changing your system and the progs you use.
Unless you go Surface, and, I suspect, even with that you would be better off adapting your system and progs to your new device.

[wraith808]

I really want to get a convertible.  They look so cool!  But my experience with my windows tablet sours me on that.  And I just can't get into android, even though I have one now (my nook).  Things just seem so much harder to get done.  I was thinking that my Nook might be the gateway into Android for me.  But It's turned out to be the exact opposite- I just use it for reading.

[Dormouse]

And I just can't get into android, even though I have one now (my nook).  Things just seem so much harder to get done.  I was thinking that my Nook might be the gateway into Android for me.  But It's turned out to be the exact opposite- I just use it for reading.

-wraith808 (October 27, 2014, 10:16 AM)

There's no getting away from the fact that getting into any new system is a lot of effort and you need to know there's a payback for it, preferably with some kind of fairly instant gratification.
In my case it was the phone and ability to organise (and I had been previously used to Palm & earlier Windows mobiles); not sure an ereader would ever have done it for me.
And then, when I was trying iOS, I could see the productivity bonuses available when I got a system sorted.

And a lot of things are harder to get done.
Though a bunch of others are much easier.
And I can carry a phone/tablet & keyboard around in my pockets which isn't an option with a laptop.
The productivity all depends on what you are doing and how you do it.

[dr_andus]

And I can carry a phone/tablet & keyboard around in my pockets which isn't an option with a laptop.
The productivity all depends on what you are doing and how you do it.

-Dormouse (October 27, 2014, 11:31 AM)

Sure, definitions of productivity will differ. I was thinking about it in the classical sense of "producing stuff per unit of time."

I also have an iPad and an iPod Touch and they're fine for capturing notes on the go. But when I need to enter into production mode (organising captured data, analysing it, and writing things up, in my case), then I make sure to take either my XP netbook or my Chromebook (if I have wifi access), so I can use my Win software.

P.S. I did experiment with a bluetooth keyboard + iPad combination. But the whole thing about propping up the iPad at the right angle, missing certain keyboard shortcuts, etc. just drove it home to me that the laptop format (albeit the Chromebook variety) has specific advantages to offer even on the go (such as balancing things on your knees, having the screen at the right angle etc.)

[Deozaan]

I was thinking that my Nook might be the gateway into Android for me.  But It's turned out to be the exact opposite- I just use it for reading.

-wraith808 (October 27, 2014, 10:16 AM)

Is the Nook even really Android? I mean, yes, I know it's built on Android. But the Amazon Kindle devices built on Android are so customized that they're not really Android (IMO). I would never recommend an Amazon Android device to someone who was interested in getting into Android, because Amazon changes the experience so drastically that it's not really the same thing anymore.

It's a bit like saying you're interested in vampire lore, then exposing yourself to only the Twilight series and then saying you just can't get into vampires. Or something.

[wraith808]

I was thinking that my Nook might be the gateway into Android for me.  But It's turned out to be the exact opposite- I just use it for reading.

-wraith808 (October 27, 2014, 10:16 AM)

Is the Nook even really Android? I mean, yes, I know it's built on Android. But the Amazon Kindle devices built on Android are so customized that they're not really Android (IMO). I would never recommend an Amazon Android device to someone who was interested in getting into Android, because Amazon changes the experience so drastically that it's not really the same thing anymore.

It's a bit like saying you're interested in vampire lore, then exposing yourself to only the Twilight series and then saying you just can't get into vampires. Or something.

-Deozaan (October 27, 2014, 01:55 PM)

Yes, the nook is android.  It's the Samsung S with a couple of widgets and a different nook app.  I had someone with one that's an avid android fan look at it for me.  It has a widget for the library, a widget for shopping (which I've removed) and a widget for store search (which I've removed), and the on-screen button in the lower left has different functionality.  But other than that, it's just Android.

[wraith808]

P.S. I did experiment with a bluetooth keyboard + iPad combination. But the whole thing about propping up the iPad at the right angle, missing certain keyboard shortcuts, etc. just drove it home to me that the laptop format (albeit the Chromebook variety) has specific advantages to offer even on the go (such as balancing things on your knees, having the screen at the right angle etc.)

-dr_andus (October 27, 2014, 11:59 AM)

I use the logitech case/keyboard and it gets rid of those concerns about propping it up.

http://www.logitech....-folio-for-ipad-mini

[dr_andus]

I use the logitech case/keyboard and it gets rid of those concerns about propping it up.

-wraith808 (October 27, 2014, 03:22 PM)

That does look like a very nice case... But I think this is a horses for courses type of situation. Some people will be happy with that sorts of setup, others won't.

When it comes to mobile productivity for me (which means being away from my office and desktop for a day or longer), here's what matters to me:
- a decent keyboard (Apple Wireless Keyboard size and type) - my HP Chromebook 14 is exactly that size.
- ability to use the device on my lap for several hours (when on a long train journey or flight).
- ability to position screen at whatever angle I like.
- access to my specialised Windows software (i.e. sync PC with XP netbook or have wifi access via Chrome Remote Desktop on Chromebook. Unfortunately my netbook's keyboard is crap, so I'd bring along the Apple Wireless Keyboard, if it's a long stay).
- long battery life (6-8 hrs).
- decent screen size (or ability to virtually extend screen size).

Now, Surface Pro 3 could tick the boxes for having the specialist Win software. I hear that the keyboard is apparently pretty good. But I also hear people complaining that it's a pain to balance the thing on their knees and that it gets hot...

If I had the money for it, I would probably consider it. But even then I wonder if a Macbook Air running Windows might not be better option for productivity itself, or some other high end Win ultrabook, given my needs...

[wraith808]

If I had the money for it, I would probably consider it. But even then I wonder if a Macbook Air running Windows might not be better option for productivity itself, or some other high end Win ultrabook, given my needs...

-dr_andus (October 27, 2014, 08:27 PM)

That's why I have a macbook pro.  And will probably upgrade to a macbook air.  Also, after playing around with it... the mac isn't so bad on its own merits...

[dr_andus]

Speaking of productivity and iPads, Rui Carmo's thoughts' on the matter (he comes down on the side of the Surface):

iPad at a Crossroads - Tao of Mac

Apple is constantly shirking away from letting the iPad become a productivity tool, and it’s going to cost them in the long run.

P.S. And the article he links to is an interesting one as well:

iPad at a Crossroads + Subtraction.com

[superboyac]

I really want to get a convertible.  They look so cool!  But my experience with my windows tablet sours me on that.  And I just can't get into android, even though I have one now (my nook).  Things just seem so much harder to get done.  I was thinking that my Nook might be the gateway into Android for me.  But It's turned out to be the exact opposite- I just use it for reading.

-wraith808 (October 27, 2014, 10:16 AM)

You are exactly right...trying to get stuff done on the android can get pretty annoying.  Especially if you are used to a Windows mindset and trying to make android compatible with that workflow.

What windows tablet do you have?  I almost went the convertible route, but after trying it a few times, it didn't last for me.  Too big, I ended up using it like a laptop, as many end up doing.  You just don't need all that keyboard all of the time, especially if the touch response is good and the tablet itself is light like the surface pro.  So now I just carry a spare bluetooth keyboard just in case, but am using some tricks to get around the keyboard thing.  Mainly these onscreen configurable toolbars that artists are now using.

The windows tablet is the most cutting edge device right now.  The only thing that will challenge it is either a Mac OSX touch tablet or a Linux tablet.  I'll qualify this by saying I'm approaching this from a productivity/business standpoint, which really just means I do more than just "email/browsing/watching/reading". (and even those are better on the windows tablet).

[wraith808]

What windows tablet do you have?

-superboyac (October 29, 2014, 01:42 PM)

I had a dell venue 8 pro.  I really wanted to like it, but ended up selling it a few months after I got it.  The primary feel I got was one of promise, but still not ready for prime-time.  Like a pretty covering placed over imperfections.

The major reasons that made me sell it while I could:
1. The interaction of not-metro with the desktop
2. the feel of the tablet with the desktop
3. low-level interactions and the fact that you could be handicapped by the fact that it was a tablet
4. power management and its relation to other functionality

It just got to be too annoying and inconvenient to ignore.

[superboyac]

What windows tablet do you have?

-superboyac (October 29, 2014, 01:42 PM)

I had a dell venue 8 pro.  I really wanted to like it, but ended up selling it a few months after I got it.  The primary feel I got was one of promise, but still not ready for prime-time.  Like a pretty covering placed over imperfections.

The major reasons that made me sell it while I could:
1. The interaction of not-metro with the desktop
2. the feel of the tablet with the desktop
3. low-level interactions and the fact that you could be handicapped by the fact that it was a tablet
4. power management and its relation to other functionality

It just got to be too annoying and inconvenient to ignore.

-wraith808 (October 29, 2014, 03:30 PM)

Very interesting.  I also felt the venue would have been a promising tablet. 

[wraith808]

Microsoft has a special on the HP Stream 7 signature edition tablet (meaning no crapware and a bare install).  It was only $79, and came with a $25 app store gift card and a year's sub to office 365, so it seemed like a good deal.  What it really did was bring into life a few more issues- real deal breakers.

It's a nice tablet, with a nice build.  A lot thicker than my ipad mini, but it feels good in the hand.  A bit bigger than my nook, but I really like it.  For $79 I don't feel that I've wasted money exactly, since I can use it as a test bed for apps.  But I wouldn't replace my mini (iOS) nor nook (Android) with it.

On the multi-purpose front, there's nothing in the App Store.  So with a $25 credit, I can't even find anything to spend it on.  And it expires in 3 months, so that's not likely to change in that timeframe.

On the reader front (I'd thought to replace my nook with something that I'm more familiar with), it just doesn't have the battery life to compete.  With either device.

I performed a test.  I fully charged my mini (the battery's already older on it) and the new stream 7.  Then I unplugged them and left them going, doing absolutely nothing but sitting on my desk.  I powered them on that same night.  Or tried to.  The stream 7 wouldn't power on because of low battery.  The ipad mini was still at 100%.  I fully charged the stream 7 again.  Today, it's at 30%.  My iPad mini is still at 100%.  That's with zero use.  Just sitting there.  And on my nook, I read on it regularly, and charge it maybe once a week?  Until they get the battery problems sorted, they shouldn't be marketing it.  Because it's hurting them.

[superboyac]

Microsoft has a special on the HP Stream 7 signature edition tablet (meaning no crapware and a bare install).  It was only $79, and came with a $25 app store gift card and a year's sub to office 365, so it seemed like a good deal.  What it really did was bring into life a few more issues- real deal breakers.

It's a nice tablet, with a nice build.  A lot thicker than my ipad mini, but it feels good in the hand.  A bit bigger than my nook, but I really like it.  For $79 I don't feel that I've wasted money exactly, since I can use it as a test bed for apps.  But I wouldn't replace my mini (iOS) nor nook (Android) with it.

On the multi-purpose front, there's nothing in the App Store.  So with a $25 credit, I can't even find anything to spend it on.  And it expires in 3 months, so that's not likely to change in that timeframe.

On the reader front (I'd thought to replace my nook with something that I'm more familiar with), it just doesn't have the battery life to compete.  With either device.

I performed a test.  I fully charged my mini (the battery's already older on it) and the new stream 7.  Then I unplugged them and left them going, doing absolutely nothing but sitting on my desk.  I powered them on that same night.  Or tried to.  The stream 7 wouldn't power on because of low battery.  The ipad mini was still at 100%.  I fully charged the stream 7 again.  Today, it's at 30%.  My iPad mini is still at 100%.  That's with zero use.  Just sitting there.  And on my nook, I read on it regularly, and charge it maybe once a week?  Until they get the battery problems sorted, they shouldn't be marketing it.  Because it's hurting them.

-wraith808 (March 06, 2015, 08:23 AM)

I hear you.  The battery problem I think is a Windows OS problem.  Windows wifi features were not intended for mobile devices like tablets and phones.  They're usually just on all the time.  Now that they are using the full Windows OS on mobile devices, they have really been having problems with the wifi stuff related to battery life.  It's really pretty annoying to the end user.  I have a surface pro, and when I turn the screen on, it may take a minute or more before the wifi network is ready.  And if I turn it off and on again, same thing.  On Android and iOS devices, the wifi is always on I think, battery life is preserved when the screen is off, and it doesn't take a long time to connect.  This also has to do with cellular/wifi interactions as well.  Anyway, a full Windows OS doesn't seem to have these features.  They've tried addressing it and fixing it in many ways, all of them have been little to no improvement.
Windows 10 better fix this problem.  I mean, what else are they doing?  It can't be this hard to figure this out...especially when apple and android already have had it figured out for a long time.  So MS is just screwing around and being coy about their attempts to fix this.

Now, some people will say windows is different in that it has to work on a variety of third party hardware, unlike apple.  OK fine, but android has the same problem and they've figured it out.  MS is just deliberately not addressing this.  And they have more things like this.  Like their pen technology on the surface tablets has issues that take forever to be addressed.  So MS is just being annoying...saving all these fixes and features for upcoming upgrades...Windows 10, 11, etc. surface pro 4, 5, etc.

[dr_andus]

OK fine, but android has the same problem and they've figured it out.

-superboyac (March 06, 2015, 12:14 PM)

Not so sure about that. Got myself my first Android tablet recently (Hudl 2), and I was shocked to see that it depleted itself in a single day in standby without me ever touching it, while my ancient iPad 1 can still hold its charge for weeks in standby (even if it's useless now for browsing).

[wraith808]

OK fine, but android has the same problem and they've figured it out.

-superboyac (March 06, 2015, 12:14 PM)

Not so sure about that. Got myself my first Android tablet recently (Hudl 2), and I was shocked to see that it depleted itself in a single day in standby without me ever touching it, while my ancient iPad 1 can still hold its charge for weeks in standby (even if it's useless now for browsing).

-dr_andus (March 06, 2015, 03:04 PM)

That could be hardware related, however.  My Nook is an android tablet, and as I said, it goes a week or more.  Not as good as my ipad, but still good enough for occasional reading.  The battery life is pointed out as one of the cons on that particular tablet in the reviews I've seen.

In comparison, look at the stream numbers:

http://www.anandtech...hp-stream-7-review/5

That's a good review overall of the stream 7 also.

[superboyac]

OK fine, but android has the same problem and they've figured it out.

-superboyac (March 06, 2015, 12:14 PM)

Not so sure about that. Got myself my first Android tablet recently (Hudl 2), and I was shocked to see that it depleted itself in a single day in standby without me ever touching it, while my ancient iPad 1 can still hold its charge for weeks in standby (even if it's useless now for browsing).

-dr_andus (March 06, 2015, 03:04 PM)

dr. andus, if you do research on it (I'll post my articles once I find them) you'll see that Windows OS has had issues with this.  Android may have an issue here and there, but the OS itself is built for this sort of thing.  So in your case, it may really be the problem of the hardware.

Windows' problem is not the hardware, it's the OS itself.  It's not built for efficient use of mobile tech...the management of screen on/off, wifi on/off or on while screen is off, etc.  They've made supposedly "significant" updates to it in the past year with the surface user complaining, but they are klunky and still not very significant at all.  I'm assuming it will be fixed in windows 10, but you never know.  if not, I'll be like wtf.

[wraith808]

Windows OS has had issues with this.  Android may have an issue here and there, but the OS itself is built for this sort of thing.  So in your case, it may really be the problem of the hardware.

Windows' problem is not the hardware, it's the OS itself.  It's not built for efficient use of mobile tech...the management of screen on/off, wifi on/off or on while screen is off, etc.  They've made supposedly "significant" updates to it in the past year with the surface user complaining, but they are klunky and still not very significant at all.  I'm assuming it will be fixed in windows 10, but you never know.  if not, I'll be like wtf.

-superboyac (March 06, 2015, 03:38 PM)

And this is exactly what worries me about their one OS to rule them all approach they're doing with Windows 10.  They've shown that their power management frankly sucks.  And it's the largest thing I hope they fix.  But with one size fits all, I don't think they will.

[superboyac]

Windows OS has had issues with this.  Android may have an issue here and there, but the OS itself is built for this sort of thing.  So in your case, it may really be the problem of the hardware.

Windows' problem is not the hardware, it's the OS itself.  It's not built for efficient use of mobile tech...the management of screen on/off, wifi on/off or on while screen is off, etc.  They've made supposedly "significant" updates to it in the past year with the surface user complaining, but they are klunky and still not very significant at all.  I'm assuming it will be fixed in windows 10, but you never know.  if not, I'll be like wtf.

-superboyac (March 06, 2015, 03:38 PM)

And this is exactly what worries me about their one OS to rule them all approach they're doing with Windows 10.  They've shown that their power management frankly sucks.  And it's the largest thing I hope they fix.  But with one size fits all, I don't think they will.

-wraith808 (March 06, 2015, 03:40 PM)

I know.  Seriously.
From what I know about computers and stuff, it shouldn't be that difficult for a company like MS.  So they just don't want to do it, YET.  They know about it, they can probably fix it with a patch update in probably a week, maybe more for testing and confirmation, that's it.  They're not doing it because for some reason they don't want to.  Maybe it will be touted as the BIG feature for windows 10.

[tomos]

MS is just deliberately not addressing this.  And they have more things like this.  Like their pen technology on the surface tablets has issues that take forever to be addressed.  So MS is just being annoying...saving all these fixes and features for upcoming upgrades...Windows 10, 11, etc.

-superboyac (March 06, 2015, 12:14 PM)

Maybe it will be touted as the BIG feature for windows 10.

-superboyac (March 06, 2015, 03:55 PM)

^I obviously have no idea what MS are up to here, but this today made me think:
I was working with a Vista machine earlier today, and it still had the '[create] New Folder' option hidden in the second level of the context menu. I dont know exactly how many years it took them to get that in the toolbar in Windows Explorer, but I think anyone that can take so long, to make something so universally required easily accessible - well, I wonder: can they have gotten much better in terms of giving us what we want?

Sure, they do it occasionally, in certain departments, but overall MS is like this sluggish snail that's maybe eventually going to give you what you want.   Maybe.

[wraith808]

Sure, they do it occasionally, in certain departments, but overall MS is like this sluggish snail that's maybe eventually going to give you what you want.   Maybe.

-tomos (March 06, 2015, 04:19 PM)

LOL!  Even better... they're like a vegas slots machine.  You keep putting tokens in, hoping to break even.  And sometimes... sometimes you get the right combination to get a payout, just enough to keep you feeding it.  But, in the end, the house always wins.

[dr_andus]

OK fine, but android has the same problem and they've figured it out.

-superboyac (March 06, 2015, 12:14 PM)

Not so sure about that. Got myself my first Android tablet recently (Hudl 2), and I was shocked to see that it depleted itself in a single day in standby without me ever touching it, while my ancient iPad 1 can still hold its charge for weeks in standby (even if it's useless now for browsing).

-dr_andus (March 06, 2015, 03:04 PM)

That could be hardware related, however.  My Nook is an android tablet, and as I said, it goes a week or more.  Not as good as my ipad, but still good enough for occasional reading.  The battery life is pointed out as one of the cons on that particular tablet in the reviews I've seen.

-wraith808 (March 06, 2015, 03:28 PM)

You might be right about that. But when I look at the battery usage on the Hudl 2, it says Android OS is responsible for 52% of the power consumption (screen is 34%, and Wi-Fi 9%), which made me think that the OS might have something to do with it.

Anyway, otherwise I'm pretty happy with both the Hudl 2 and Android for my purposes (though I'm very much a novice user).

But, yes, it's disappointing MS can't get it together in this regard.

[Innuendo]

You might be right about that. But when I look at the battery usage on the Hudl 2, it says Android OS is responsible for 52% of the power consumption (screen is 34%, and Wi-Fi 9%), which made me think that the OS might have something to do with it.

-dr_andus (March 06, 2015, 04:47 PM)

When you look at battery usage stats on an Android device, the Android OS entry is vague and nebulous. It comprises of everything having to do with the Android core OS. However, it also comprises of any tweaks/addons your device OEM has incorporated, and even some third-party apps that may have been installed from the Play store that hook into Android system calls.

Quality of the build, components, and how big of a battery they put in that thing will also play a part in how much time a full charge will last.

Now, I've got a Samsung Galaxy Tab Pro, an 8.4 inch tablet with a screen that sports a 2560x1600 resolution with a 2.3 GHz SnapDragon processor. This is kind of beefy as far as tablets go with power-hungry components, but I can let my tablet sit idle for a few days and easily have battery to play around when I finally get around to picking it up.

Full disclosure, though...I have rooted my tablet and anything that came from the factory I didn't want I've either uninstalled or disabled. I also run Greenify to hibernate apps and Amplify, an XPosed framework module, to limit wake-locks.

This tablet never leaves the house so having to charge it every few days isn't a big deal to me.

[superboyac]

I remember now the term MS uses for this "feature": Connected Standby!
At the bottom here, I've posted a couple of images showing what MS is dealing with.  While I appreciate the effort, i also feel they are deliberately holding off on the better implementations of this for Windows 10 and beyond.  

Again, the whole thing here is this: on and Android/iphone, I turn the screen on, and i can immediately start browsing or using the internet.  It's because the OS handles the cellular/wifi/power management in a way suitable for mobiles.  Which is, they are running on battery power instead of being permanently plugged in, which is the WIndows way.  So now, windows needs to be able to do both...plugged in all the time, and mobile in a single OS.  No big deal, it really isn't.  Android can do permanently plugged in also...it's actually not an issue.  if everything works fluidly and instantly on mobile, then working while it's plugged in is a moot issue.

On a mobile windows device, it's not very smooth.  When you turn the screen on, well, the wifi has already been off.  So now it takes about a minute for the network wifi to get reconnected.  So you are probably waiting or pressing refresh-refresh until it's connected.  Very annoying.  But if they left the wifi on all the time, it would suck the battery.  The power management settings won't do anything.  It needs to be solved like android, in a dynamic way that the OS is managing.

So below are some images from MS presentations.
I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.
I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.