I'd like to get a Windows Tablet: help me decide.

[superboyac]

After considering the new Surface Pro 3, I am intrigued by these tablets now.  Can we have a discussion about our experiences with windows tablets?  I'll start....

No RT nonsense; the full Windows package.
My female cousin has an original surface pro, I picked her brain about it.  She's not a techie at all.  She loves the thing.  For school, she says it's so much better than android tablets, ipads, etc.  Like by a longshot.  I played around with it, did some of the things she likes, and I gotta say, it's pretty nice.  The complaints in the press sound really weird after my experience.  The complaints don't make sense.  The tablet is fast, runs all windows programs, has a decent enough pen input where I'm not bothered much at all (I haven't tried Photoshop though).  Feels better than the Samsung pen input.  The only pen experience I've had personally that I like better is my actual wacom tablet.

With that big screen on the new Surface Pro, I am drooling about using it to read my books and digital magazines.  Being able to clip stuff like a windows computer, pictures, cropping, file management without any tortured procedures like in android/ios.  God I love having a fully featured file manager.
I'm excited about being able to sketch on it.  I'm excited about sharing files and windows programs with it.  I'm excited about some nifty things I may be able to do with music applications...remote midi control?  i dunno.

I mean, for us Windows power users, haven't we been waiting for something like this forever?! 

[Vurbal]

I've been using an Asus Transformer Book for just over a month now and, while it's not exactly what I was looking for, it's the closest thing to a perfect portable for me, it's still a compromise. Of course a portable PC is always a compromise, and it's definitely closer to ideal (for my purposes) than anything ever made for Win7.

That sort of sums up most of my advice for buying a Win8 tablet. You have a lot of flexibility to pick a device that's the best compromise for you. The cost may be significantly more time spent comparison shopping. I spent several hours comparison shopping, several more hours deciding what was or wasn't a deal breaker, and then back to the shopping until I ended up with something I actually dismissed out of hand initially.

Here's one thing that's certain. By getting a Win8 tablet you are settling for a portable, rather than mobile, device. Despite all the gains from re-engineering Windows to be more modular a la *nix, Windows 8 is still not capable of the energy efficiency you expect from a mobile device.

My 10 inch, Atom powered, tablet has great battery life for a relatively capable laptop. Definitely not acceptable if I were planning to leave it running for hours (even with the display off) between uses. Higher resolution displays and desktop processors are likely to bring that down to Earth. I suspect the combination would drag it down to good, but not great, for a mid-tier (performance-wise) laptop.

The keyboard dock is, frankly, lower quality than any standard laptop I've ever used. The touchpad buttons are crap because of being integrated into the pad. OTOH the additional Asus software provides interesting and useful gestures support. It also adds 500GB of storage and a USB 3 port.

I almost bought a HP, mostly because the quality of the dock - especially the dock connector - is higher quality, but also because I could have doubled the 2GB of RAM I ended up with. I'm sure I'll miss the RAM from time to time, but it hasn't happened yet. In the end, HP's price (I would have paid $100 - $200 more) and lack of a supplemental hard drive were the deciding factors. Keep in mind, though, that's comparing an Asus refurb to a new HP. Otherwise there wouldn't be much difference.

If you are going for one of the mega tablets, definitely give the Surface 3 a hard look. We need a better word for that. It's hard for me to even call them a tablet at all. Maybe slabtop would be a more accurate designation...

At any rate, I haven't used any generation of Surface Pro (or RT - but who really cares?), but my brother used one for a couple months when they first came out. He does ultra high level support for a multinational financial company; tech support for the admins really. His department uses it for on-call remote access sessions and he had nothing but good things to say about it. He likes the iPad and Logitech keyboard/stand even better on the whole, but he is basically using it as a dumb terminal.

Now that I've probably made things less clear than when you started (what can I say? It's a gift), feel free to pick my brain for whatever turd shaped nuggets of wisdom I may have lying around.

[superboyac]

i was playing with the surface again yesterday.  Just from a practical standpoint, it feels so much better than ANY tablet I've ever tried.  The Windows 8 OS (Pro, not RT) is fantastic for a tablet.  Geez.  It's like light years difference from any other touch experience on the ipad or whatever.  it's soooooo much better.

MS is still such an abrasive company these days, you don't even want to buy their good stuff.  This is my dilemma.  I don't like what the company is doing at all, but this tablet is really great.  Reading pdf's on it is the greatest experience of reading pdf's on any device.

You know what I can't wait for?  The day when Linux starts being able to go on super-powered tablets.  That's going to destroy everything, and I would imagine google/apple/MS is terrified about that.  If I can go out, buy an i7 powered tablet with a 12" screen, install Linux on it...that's a huge game changer.

[tomos]

MS is still such an abrasive company these days, you don't even want to buy their good stuff.  This is my dilemma.  I don't like what the company is doing at all, but this tablet is really great.

-superboyac (July 21, 2014, 03:45 PM)

FWIW I wouldnt let that stop me. Good is good
(are Apple or Google any more attractive these days!? - dont answer that or we'll go completely off-topic :p)

[wraith808]

Which would I buy?  After my experience recently... none.  I really wanted a windows tablet, especially because I could code for it universally with my skillset I already possess.  Purchased a Dell Venue 8.  Sold it after trying for a couple of months to do anything similar to the experience I get on the iPad.

It just doesn't do the mobile experience well, from experience when downloading and the tablet sleeps, to limitations in applications that don't have similar limitations on iPad, to even using system menus and options (anything that's not in the system charm?  don't try to use it- it will still be built for standard windows.  and definitely not in portrait mode, as most are widescreen).

Wanted to like it, but wasn't successful in that.

[superboyac]

MS is still such an abrasive company these days, you don't even want to buy their good stuff.  This is my dilemma.  I don't like what the company is doing at all, but this tablet is really great.

-superboyac (July 21, 2014, 03:45 PM)

FWIW I wouldnt let that stop me. Good is good
(are Apple or Google any more attractive these days!? - dont answer that or we'll go completely off-topic :p)

-tomos (July 21, 2014, 03:53 PM)

good point.

[superboyac]

Which would I buy?  After my experience recently... none.  I really wanted a windows tablet, especially because I could code for it universally with my skillset I already possess.  Purchased a Dell Venue 8.  Sold it after trying for a couple of months to do anything similar to the experience I get on the iPad.

It just doesn't do the mobile experience well, from experience when downloading and the tablet sleeps, to limitations in applications that don't have similar limitations on iPad, to even using system menus and options (anything that's not in the system charm?  don't try to use it- it will still be built for standard windows.  and definitely not in portrait mode, as most are widescreen).

Wanted to like it, but wasn't successful in that.

-wraith808 (July 21, 2014, 05:36 PM)

wraith...if you ever felt like describing the excruciating details of your experience, I would totally enjoy reading it over my morning coffee.  I'm a little shocked to hear about any sort of limitations on windows that is not present in the ipad.  And weren't you one of the earlier users of the original windows tablets from way back 10 years ago?  I think that was you...

[xtabber]

See my earlier post for my initial reaction to acquiring Lenovo's entry level 8 inch Miix 2 Windows 8.1 tablet.

Four months later, I remain very impressed with the potential of the Windows tablet, and also frustrated by the real world limitations of the environment.  If you need an actual keyboard and mouse to work -- and in most cases, you do -- you lose many of the advantages of a tablet. Also, the Windows desktop does not have the built-in capability of Android and iOS to resize or zoom the screen, which can make it difficult to read, at least for my aging eyes.

I consider the 8 inch form factor ideal for carrying around at all times, but the limitations of the Windows desktop display make it unsuitable for almost any purpose I would use it for. A ten inch or larger tablet is better, but you lose portability and still don't get much in return because of the way the Windows desktop handles screen resolutions. The Metro environment is utterly unusable under any circumstances, IMHO.

As of now, I see the Windows 8.x tablet as mostly an extremely portable CPU that can be hooked into a monitor, keyboard and mouse when needed.  Windows simply does not work as well as Android or iOS for tablet functions like reading, listening to music, viewing video and quick access to a variety of ad hoc utilities.  That means that I still need two devices when I really want just one that can do it all.

But I remain hopeful.

In any event, I would not buy a Windows tablet today that did not have both USB 3.0 and either HDMI or Displayport.

[wraith808]

^ Exactly what my experience was.  Even worse were the frequent switches to desktop mode, even for native apps, and the fact that the desktop is woefully unsuited to use in a tablet that small.  It was also not as responsive as I'd expect, especially as people say that the not-Metro mode is for apps.  

There's also the integration with the outside world.  Even with their native app (which they want you to use for storage), that integration just doesn't work.  I'd use a piece of software that had to download something, and it just wouldn't work, even though downloading normal would.  I think it has to do with the sleep mode and such.  But that's just not an excuse.  And as I work with Dropbox and Cubby quite a bit (and others), it just wasn't acceptable.

I see potential, and really wanted it to work.  But it needs serious work.

[40hz]

MS is still such an abrasive company these days, you don't even want to buy their good stuff.  This is my dilemma.  I don't like what the company is doing at all, but this tablet is really great.

-superboyac (July 21, 2014, 03:45 PM)

That's the problem in a nutshell with any platform device.

I feel the same way about an iPad. But I'll probably eventually get one because there's just so many excellent and usable music apps available for it that I'm only hurting myself not getting one. It's been said before, and it's still true, that software drives the platform. And with the likes of Moog, Waldorf, Arturia, Propellerhead, Korg, VirSyn, and Cakewalk all onboard, it's becoming too much to not to get an iPad simply because I can't stand Apple's business model and despise its management.
 

[superboyac]

those iOS music apps are pretty damn good.  Sounds like we're in the same situation with the different brands.

wraith, I'm a little confused by your post...
responsiveness:  i thought the surface tablet was VERY responsive.  What exactly was it not responsive with?  All my touches and swipes were as fast as can be with the desktop power things were very quick.

As far as skydrive and integration, that's a software issue, and doesn't seem to be a tablet issue, right?
Speaking of which, shouldn't a tablet running windows 8 PRO (not RT) have no issues with settings, apps, whatever?  These are all software issues, and I've never run into such an issue that can't be resolved by some kind of freeware or third-party tool.  Right?  Isn't that our experience with the desktop windows computer?  Unless it's a hardware issue, i can't see any real problems with using a windows tablet.

I say all this because I'm confused by complaints about the tablet that sound like they can be fixed with desktop methods.

[wraith808]

those iOS music apps are pretty damn good.  Sounds like we're in the same situation with the different brands.

wraith, I'm a little confused by your post...
responsiveness:  i thought the surface tablet was VERY responsive.  What exactly was it not responsive with?  All my touches and swipes were as fast as can be with the desktop power things were very quick.

As far as skydrive and integration, that's a software issue, and doesn't seem to be a tablet issue, right?
Speaking of which, shouldn't a tablet running windows 8 PRO (not RT) have no issues with settings, apps, whatever?  These are all software issues, and I've never run into such an issue that can't be resolved by some kind of freeware or third-party tool.  Right?  Isn't that our experience with the desktop windows computer?  Unless it's a hardware issue, i can't see any real problems with using a windows tablet.

I say all this because I'm confused by complaints about the tablet that sound like they can be fixed with desktop methods.

-superboyac (July 22, 2014, 11:42 AM)

In terms of responsiveness, don't look at it with only the interface there, or one app.  Put it under normal load.  It takes a *long* time and a *lot* of apps in the background to make my ipad slow down at all- so much so, that even with 15 apps normally backgrounded, I never see it.  Try that on the surface.  I dare you.  Especially if a background app is doing something.

The skydrive and integration is not a software issue.  It affects anything that deals with cloud access.  Which makes it an OS issue.  A couple of examples.

1. I was syncing up some things between cubby and dropbox using Otixio.  This is something that I do all the time on my iOS device and it works fine, even if it goes to sleep because if inactivity.  Not only did it crap out when it went to sleep on my venue, I ended up with duplicates, and partials.
2. I was working on a document stored on dropbox.  I got called away, and left it up.  The synced version was an older version when I accessed the same document on a different machine.  If I work on something in dropbox on iOS (or PC, truthfully) as long as its saved, it is available on the other machines.  I had the same experience with OneDrive.
3. One of the things I do regularly is read.  Comixology, Nook, etc.  If the power goes off during a transfer, the app is forever in a bad state in terms of what has synced and what has not.

One might say these are issues with the applications at hand, and they very well may be.  But they are common functions- so if it is the applications, the API shouldn't allow the disconnect (Especially in their own app).  And so the perceived problem on my part is with the platform, as it happens across apps- no matter whose fault it is.

Which brings me to another issue - power management.  The power management in the surface platform is based on desktop paradigms, in regards to sleep and such.  That just doesn't work on a mobile platform, IMO.

[superboyac]

those iOS music apps are pretty damn good.  Sounds like we're in the same situation with the different brands.

wraith, I'm a little confused by your post...
responsiveness:  i thought the surface tablet was VERY responsive.  What exactly was it not responsive with?  All my touches and swipes were as fast as can be with the desktop power things were very quick.

As far as skydrive and integration, that's a software issue, and doesn't seem to be a tablet issue, right?
Speaking of which, shouldn't a tablet running windows 8 PRO (not RT) have no issues with settings, apps, whatever?  These are all software issues, and I've never run into such an issue that can't be resolved by some kind of freeware or third-party tool.  Right?  Isn't that our experience with the desktop windows computer?  Unless it's a hardware issue, i can't see any real problems with using a windows tablet.

I say all this because I'm confused by complaints about the tablet that sound like they can be fixed with desktop methods.

-superboyac (July 22, 2014, 11:42 AM)

In terms of responsiveness, don't look at it with only the interface there, or one app.  Put it under normal load.  It takes a *long* time and a *lot* of apps in the background to make my ipad slow down at all- so much so, that even with 15 apps normally backgrounded, I never see it.  Try that on the surface.  I dare you.  Especially if a background app is doing something.

The skydrive and integration is not a software issue.  It affects anything that deals with cloud access.  Which makes it an OS issue.  A couple of examples.

1. I was syncing up some things between cubby and dropbox using Otixio.  This is something that I do all the time on my iOS device and it works fine, even if it goes to sleep because if inactivity.  Not only did it crap out when it went to sleep on my venue, I ended up with duplicates, and partials.
2. I was working on a document stored on dropbox.  I got called away, and left it up.  The synced version was an older version when I accessed the same document on a different machine.  If I work on something in dropbox on iOS (or PC, truthfully) as long as its saved, it is available on the other machines.  I had the same experience with OneDrive.
3. One of the things I do regularly is read.  Comixology, Nook, etc.  If the power goes off during a transfer, the app is forever in a bad state in terms of what has synced and what has not.

One might say these are issues with the applications at hand, and they very well may be.  But they are common functions- so if it is the applications, the API shouldn't allow the disconnect (Especially in their own app).  And so the perceived problem on my part is with the platform, as it happens across apps- no matter whose fault it is.

Which brings me to another issue - power management.  The power management in the surface platform is based on desktop paradigms, in regards to sleep and such.  That just doesn't work on a mobile platform, IMO.

-wraith808 (July 22, 2014, 12:45 PM)

I see.  Yes, that sounds unpleasant!  Now that you mention it, I have read about users' complaints with the surface and power management...really strange stories.  It sounds like the Surface, even the SP3, has some buggy issues with the power management and wifi.

I wonder if even that can be resolved with some third party power management tools.

I have an ipad.  It's nice, but I basically stopped using it when I upgraded my phone.  I have an android tablet, same story.  I don't miss anything in my workflow by not using a tablet, except recently for one thing...reading.  So I want the SP3 basically to use as a reader.  Lol, i know it's overkill (aren't you guys used to me by now?).  

Anyway...I'm getting it this week.  

[xtabber]

I don't miss anything in my workflow by not using a tablet, except recently for one thing...reading.  So I want the SP3 basically to use as a reader.  Lol, i know it's overkill (aren't you guys used to me by now?). 

Anyway...I'm getting it this week. 

-superboyac (July 22, 2014, 03:05 PM)

I wouldn't call that overkill, I'd call it misapprehension.

I use my Android tablets mostly for reading and one reason I do is that the reading apps available on Android tablets are far better than anything equivalent on Windows.

There are a lot of very good reasons to get a Windows 8.1 tablet. Reading is NOT one of them.

[Vurbal]

I don't miss anything in my workflow by not using a tablet, except recently for one thing...reading.  So I want the SP3 basically to use as a reader.  Lol, i know it's overkill (aren't you guys used to me by now?). 

Anyway...I'm getting it this week. 

-superboyac (July 22, 2014, 03:05 PM)

I wouldn't call that overkill, I'd call it misapprehension.

I use my Android tablets mostly for reading and one reason I do is that the reading apps available on Android tablets are far better than anything equivalent on Windows.

There are a lot of very good reasons to get a Windows 8.1 tablet. Reading is NOT one of them.

-xtabber (July 22, 2014, 09:13 PM)

That depends on your criteria. While I agree that the apps themselves for Android are far superior on the whole, if you're reading something that isn't well suited to a 7-8 inch screen, most Windows tablets are superior to most Android tablets. That was one of the reasons I ultimately decided to get my Transformer Book. An Android tablet with the same display size would still have been better for reading, but still a waste (for me) considering I can use it as a reasonably full featured laptop.

However, I would also consider anything bigger than around 10 inches poorly suited for reading anything unless you intend to lay it down most of the time. I also wouldn't even consider a tablet with a desktop processor.

[wraith808]

However, I would also consider anything bigger than around 10 inches poorly suited for reading anything unless you intend to lay it down most of the time. I also wouldn't even consider a tablet with a desktop processor.

-Vurbal (July 22, 2014, 09:41 PM)

That might have been my problem.  I've been burned by MS several times in relation to them dropping platforms, so I got one that would still be useful even if they dropped the platform.  And when you try to do two things (desktop and tablet) I suppose it's inevitable that you'll fail.

[Vurbal]

However, I would also consider anything bigger than around 10 inches poorly suited for reading anything unless you intend to lay it down most of the time. I also wouldn't even consider a tablet with a desktop processor.

-Vurbal (July 22, 2014, 09:41 PM)

That might have been my problem.  I've been burned by MS several times in relation to them dropping platforms, so I got one that would still be useful even if they dropped the platform.  And when you try to do two things (desktop and tablet) I suppose it's inevitable that you'll fail.

-wraith808 (July 22, 2014, 10:06 PM)

That may have been part of your problem but, as I said in my initial response to this thread, every Win8 tablet really is a significant compromise on one level or another. I was fortunate to have waited (fortunate meaning not by choice) until Intel got their shit together on Atom processors and released a surprisingly high performing quad core model.

However, it's been pretty well documented that even the Unix-like modularization and streamlining since Vista haven't done anything to prevent Windows from becoming more power hungry when the computer is idle. Someone I went to school with liked to point out to people who asked if they should buy a new computer that all computers wait at the same speed. Unfortunately some waste a lot more CPU cycles while they're waiting, and Windows is the primary reason for the difference.

That's just on the power management side. I've talked about the performance issues on the desktop side before, and will try to remember to add links to that info in the morning. Despite having a tablet, I use very few TIFKAM (The Interface Formerly Known As Metro) apps so I can't positively say it applies there, but realistically it would have to. The short version is that the compositing window manager seems to be the primary culprit, and in fact I find that when a desktop program stops responding I can fix it instantly by switching to the home screen and then immediately back to the desktop UI.

[superboyac]

I don't miss anything in my workflow by not using a tablet, except recently for one thing...reading.  So I want the SP3 basically to use as a reader.  Lol, i know it's overkill (aren't you guys used to me by now?). 

Anyway...I'm getting it this week. 

-superboyac (July 22, 2014, 03:05 PM)

I wouldn't call that overkill, I'd call it misapprehension.

I use my Android tablets mostly for reading and one reason I do is that the reading apps available on Android tablets are far better than anything equivalent on Windows.

There are a lot of very good reasons to get a Windows 8.1 tablet. Reading is NOT one of them.

-xtabber (July 22, 2014, 09:13 PM)

That depends on your criteria. While I agree that the apps themselves for Android are far superior on the whole, if you're reading something that isn't well suited to a 7-8 inch screen, most Windows tablets are superior to most Android tablets. That was one of the reasons I ultimately decided to get my Transformer Book. An Android tablet with the same display size would still have been better for reading, but still a waste (for me) considering I can use it as a reasonably full featured laptop.

However, I would also consider anything bigger than around 10 inches poorly suited for reading anything unless you intend to lay it down most of the time. I also wouldn't even consider a tablet with a desktop processor.

-Vurbal (July 22, 2014, 09:41 PM)

Hmm, yes, this seems to be the case for me.  I want a larger screen for reading, like paper size.  I was testing some pdf's on a surface this weekend...I don't know about you, but i liked it a lot better than android.  It's just so fast and snappy.  I also like the fact that i can use my software like pdf xchange etc, which i prefer over my android reader (ezpdf).  we'll see, i think i'll like it a lot barring any hardware bugs.  of course, that's what i said about the windows phone 8, and it sucked.

[wraith808]

I also like the fact that i can use my software like pdf xchange etc, which i prefer over my android reader (ezpdf). 

-superboyac (July 23, 2014, 10:51 AM)

Do they have a native app?  If not... don't really plan to use it.  Non-native app use sucks unless you're not in tablet mode, i.e. have a keyboard installed.

[superboyac]

I also like the fact that i can use my software like pdf xchange etc, which i prefer over my android reader (ezpdf). 

-superboyac (July 23, 2014, 10:51 AM)

Do they have a native app?  If not... don't really plan to use it.  Non-native app use sucks unless you're not in tablet mode, i.e. have a keyboard installed.

-wraith808 (July 23, 2014, 11:27 AM)

really why?  no it's not native.  just regular.  I don't understand what could suck.

[Stoic Joker]

I also like the fact that i can use my software like pdf xchange etc, which i prefer over my android reader (ezpdf). 

-superboyac (July 23, 2014, 10:51 AM)

Do they have a native app?  If not... don't really plan to use it.  Non-native app use sucks unless you're not in tablet mode, i.e. have a keyboard installed.

-wraith808 (July 23, 2014, 11:27 AM)

really why?  no it's not native.  just regular.  I don't understand what could suck.

-superboyac (July 23, 2014, 11:45 AM)

I think he's referring to the tablet required Finger Friendly Factor. I love the PDF Xchange application version for DT use, and am about to switch to it here at work on my 8.1p workstation. I did my best to make peace with the native Metro PDF viewer, but it just annoys the hell out of me (can't search/print/move the damn thing).

 So you're saying that PDF Xchange has an app version??

[superboyac]

I also like the fact that i can use my software like pdf xchange etc, which i prefer over my android reader (ezpdf). 

-superboyac (July 23, 2014, 10:51 AM)

Do they have a native app?  If not... don't really plan to use it.  Non-native app use sucks unless you're not in tablet mode, i.e. have a keyboard installed.

-wraith808 (July 23, 2014, 11:27 AM)

really why?  no it's not native.  just regular.  I don't understand what could suck.

-superboyac (July 23, 2014, 11:45 AM)

I think he's referring to the tablet required Finger Friendly Factor. I love the PDF Xchange application version for DT use, and am about to switch to it here at work on my 8.1p workstation. I did my best to make peace with the native Metro PDF viewer, but it just annoys the hell out of me (can't search/print/move the damn thing).

 So you're saying that PDF Xchange has an app version??

-Stoic Joker (July 23, 2014, 12:09 PM)

ok i see what you guys are saying.  it's an issue with navigation with the finger vs. mouse.  My assumption and experience from trying it out is that, yes, it's not perfect, but it's fine by me.  But maybe i haven't experienced something that you long term users have.

No, pdf xchange doesn't have an app version. I was just going to use it in desktop mode.

[wraith808]

ok i see what you guys are saying.  it's an issue with navigation with the finger vs. mouse.  My assumption and experience from trying it out is that, yes, it's not perfect, but it's fine by me.  But maybe i haven't experienced something that you long term users have.

No, pdf xchange doesn't have an app version. I was just going to use it in desktop mode.

-superboyac (July 23, 2014, 12:45 PM)

Try it for yourself.  I'd suggest trying it before.  It really sucks.

Ever try to hit a normal menu with your finger?  It's an exercise in frustration.  And styli only make it possible... not friendly.

[superboyac]

I found this on reddit, i want to comment on it:

The hardware is pretty impressive. The digitizer is excellent, the pressure sensitivity is basically perfect in OneNote and seems sufficient in art applications. The folding stand is useful in almost all situations.

The real issue is Windows 8.1: It's nowhere near ready as a tablet OS. If you put a keyboard on your Surface and use it as a laptop you might not care. If you try to use it without a keyboard as a pure tablet you are going to run into problems constantly. Everything that's not a Metro app (and that's every app you've ever used, for the most part) is a second class citizen in Windows 8.1, relegated to the desktop. The "desktop" acts like a single metro app, so all of your legacy applications are all stacked in there. Some of those apps aren't going to cope well with the scaling required for the super high res display.

All of the Metro apps for core "tablet" activities like email, IM, and web browsing are glaringly inferior to what you're used to on iOS or Android. You don't get notifications when the device is asleep (or sometimes ever, in the case of IMs). The email app expects to have a live connection to the server and cannot reflect actions like flagging or deleting email in a responsive fashion. Your phone makes a note to delete the email when you're in cell range and hides the message immediately. The Metro app just acts like it has ignored your attempt to delete a message while it frantically tries to connect to the server. Metro IE is very basic. Oh, you think you'll just install Chrome? Chrome is horribly broken when placed in Metro mode on a Surface Pro 3 (and it's hard to get out, because it doesn't manage to draw the half of the screen with the menu that lets you escape!). Chrome on the desktop has all the problems of a desktop app on Windows 8 and a very poor UI for touch.

Metro OneNote is pretty awful (missing key features like handwriting recognition for your handwritten notes), but you can download OneNote 2013 for free and install it on the desktop (ah, the desktop again). With some work configuring the ribbon and the quick access tools it's really quite nice on the surface. It's actually so useful it has converted me to OneNote and I consider it to be the killer app for the surface.

So it sounds like most of the complaints are attributed to metro mode.  Well, if that's true, i just won't use metro mode.  I'm more interested in using desktop mode anyway.  I want to use my desktop programs. I feel like I must not be understanding how annoying desktop mode is with the tablet.

Can't we use third party tools to make the desktop experience better?  I can use LBC for bigger buttons or as a launcher.  THere's also truelaunchbar.  I can use a tool to customize swiping gestures.  I don't really mind if buttons or options are very small, but maybe there are tools to make things bigger.

Someone recommended this keyboard for use with the surface:
http://shop.lenovo.c...4F5BA7B12F1FF88E33C7

I think I agree, I've always liked the lenovo trackball.

[superboyac]

One apparently REALLY DUMB thing MS has done with the SP3 is this:
The SP3 is slower than the SP2.  Because of the power management issues and some kind of throttling when it reaches a certain heat.  So stupid, microsoft.  Microsoft is turning into the Sony of previous decades.  Make genius hardware and completely ruin the implementation/marketing.  SUpposedly, this can be fixed with a firmware update.  It's really the most ridiculous thing i've heard about the surface.  imagine getting a new iphone and finding out it's actually a little slower than the previous model.  that would never fly.