Are you going to wait for Windows 9?

[40hz]

my company's IT people are calling it 'job security' for the next two years.

-Gwen7 (November 23, 2012, 10:33 AM)

I don't really think it's ever going to be the bonanza some are expecting it to be. But I'm sure it will keep those of us "in the biz" busier than usual for a little while once (or if) it really takes off.

Simple truth is, none of us really have all that much to say about it when it comes to business. In the corporate world, you ultimately use whatever your employer gives and tells you to use. Touchscreens too if it comes to that.

And people like me will end up supporting whatever that is if we intend to remain in this business.

So it goes.

[tomos]

The two customers I was working with have used computers for a long time (but are 'normal' every day users and over the age of 18) and they are totally befuddled by all the flipping about on their brand new laptop, especially as it seems to happen when they least expect it.

-Carol Haynes (November 23, 2012, 10:23 AM)

By default, media files opened from the desktop - they open in the tiles world. I changed that straight away for images. For music I've just been using Trout (as in 7) no idea what the default handler is. I'm so used to never using the default (e.g. I've always avoided Windows media player, rarely if ever use explorer,) that I wouldnt know if it's better or worse that way.

True then, other stuff from the tiles open in the desktop.

It is helpful to remember that either side is one winkey away. Which is not an excuse for the confusion caused - there is something very schizophrenic about the completely different styles I find too.

[dr_andus]

I don't really think it's ever going to be the bonanza some are expecting it to be.

-40hz (November 23, 2012, 10:54 AM)

I thought the bonanza was going to come from businesses upgrading to Win7: "Microsoft aims to herd 70% of enterprise onto Windows 7 by mid-2013"

[Dormouse]

We certainly won't be buying W8.

When W7 came out, I bought a full set of retail version for us all and that should be enough for a long time. When W9 comes out, I'll think about whatever is on offer, but I'm certainly not waiting for it. I'm quite happy with Linux as an alternative. I've no interest in a tablet OS unless I'm using a tablet, and MS would have to do far better than I expect to be able to persuade me to go in their direction for a tablet.

(We never bought ME either and only got stuck with one copy of Vista when we had to get a new laptop; over the last five years I've made sure that we are all quite comfortable with using Linux and we've all now had periods when we have been Linux only.)

[40hz]

I don't really think it's ever going to be the bonanza some are expecting it to be.

-40hz (November 23, 2012, 10:54 AM)

I thought the bonanza was going to come from businesses upgrading to Win7: "Microsoft aims to herd 70% of enterprise onto Windows 7 by mid-2013"

-dr_andus (November 23, 2012, 12:53 PM)

What can I say? It's good to have a dream. Let Ballmer have his.

[robinsiebler]

TBH, I have not looked at a single review for Win 8, nor do I intend to switch to it for personal use. I am quite content with Win 7 and see no reason to upgrade. The company I work for has no intention of switching to Win 8 either, aside for having a few PCs in SQA for testing purposes.

[f0dder]

I'll keep it to "First they came for the [...], and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a [...]. - and I'm sorry, but no, I don't think that's fatalist thinking. Looking at what Apple is doing and speculating(!) that Microsoft wants to do the same, I do think that's the way we're heading... unless enough people protest.

-f0dder (November 22, 2012, 07:00 PM)

And that's fine. But much like the end of the Myan calendar, we won't know what will actually happen until after it actually happens ... Regardless of how convincingly prophetic ones diatribes may be.

The thing that I'm feed up with, is the simple fact that it seems near impossible to have a discussion about the OS, as specifically and only an O. S. Without it almost instantly denigrating into a discussion about its role as a sociopolitical pawn in a bid for global domination.

There's a time and place for everything...Ya know.

-Stoic Joker (November 23, 2012, 09:15 AM)

I understand where you're coming from, and I do believe there's too much FUD about Win8... and people bitching at it for the wrong reasons (oh noes, start menu is gone, zomgzomgozomg!). I've been bitching a bit af friends that have been doing that kind of silly bitching.

But there's some - potentially - nasty things happening with Win8, and that really needs to be called out. I'd rather have people crying wolf and nothing happening, rather than risk that we end up without any open mainstream OSes. If linux had been a bit more... ready... then Microsoft fscking up bigtime could have been a good thing. But as things are now, there's only two decent desktop OSes: Windows and OS X. And going from Windows to OS X because of closedness concerns would be... insane

I'd be happy if my concerns turn out to be a fart in a bottle. I'd really hate the alternative

[Arizona Hot]

IF I could get a leftover new Win 7 machine, would I have to junk my 32-bit programs or does Win 7-64 bit handle them OK?

[Josh]

I have had ZERO problems with 64 bit windows since the Vista days. XP64 was another animal, but Vista 64 and Win7 64 have proven quite reliable.

[Arizona Hot]

I have had ZERO problems with 64 bit windows since the Vista days. XP64 was another animal, but Vista 64 and Win7 64 have proven quite reliable.

-Josh (November 24, 2012, 09:21 PM)

Thank you!

[communityfair]

I have tried both. But serioulsy I like Windows7 as compare to Windows8. It is more easy to use and handle. If you are talking about Windows9, No I am not waiting for it because I am quite satisfied with the older version.

[TaoPhoenix]

For the Win 9 thread I'll change my tone and remark that MS did "something" to polarize Win 8 like a
Make-or-Break. I'm waiting for Win 9. The suspense is basically killing me. By 3 years from now I guarantee *something* will have shaken loose.

[Carol Haynes]

I suspect in 3 years MS are banking on 3 things:

1) 'Domestic' desktop and laptop computers will have become much more marginalised than they are now and so will be less interest to their bottom line. If things continue the way they are now most 'consumer' level users will have shifted to tablets in 3 years time and that is where MS's focus market will be - with the lock-in store and data model.
2) Business users will start to see things the MS way. Personally I have my doubts on this and I can see a lot of businesses still using XP and 7 and not making the move.
3) Domestic users who have bought new machines will have got used to Windows 8 and see the desktop mode as a quirky and old fashioned way of doing things because the app market will have matured to the point that toggling to the desktop for most users will be unnecessary.

So far I haven't met many people who have bought new laptops or desktops with Windows 8 preinstalled but those I have seen are confused. They have no idea what is going on but they can see that they can browse the internet and do their emails from the tiled interface. Given that many people only use their computer for that and typing the odd letter or the odd spreadsheet means that once Office 2013 becomes established many people will probably not even use the desktop.

Many people/blogs have suggested that by the time Win 8 SP1 is released MS will have seen the error of their ways and give desktop and laptop users the option to start on the desktop with a start menu option. I think the opposite is likely to be true. At the moment there are odd behaviours in Windows 8 that mean the system sometimes flips spontaneously to the desktop for certain tasks. My guess is that SP1 will tighten integration to the tiled interface and avoid random sorties to the desktop.

MS wants the average user to forget about traditional computing and desktop apps - they want users to get used to the new WinRT interface - that is where they see their profit both on hardware and in the cloud.

The only logical step is to integrate their flagship products (such as Office - which is already in the pipeline) into WinRT (as I perceive the not-Metro interface, irrespective of hardware platform) and persuade other developers to do the same so that one integrated WinRT interface common across all devices is most users' experience. Doubtless in time flagship software will be compiled to be also available on ARM based devices (even if they have reduced functionality) and for business integrate those apps across the internet with servers anywhere in the world. I'd be surprised if MS does not start offering cloud based server products for businesses to use just to allow seamless integration for users in the office and on the road).

Driving people to the WinRT approach addresses the issue of falling demand for desktop and laptop computers and not only protects their bottom line into the future but also provides a new and highly lucrative service and apps market that users can't avoid. They have also shown their thinking by the production of their own hardware in the form of tablets and hybrid tablet/ultrabooks coming soon.

I don't think I am being cynical here. Microsoft are doing what all large multinationals do - protecting their future profits and dividends and if it works it will prove to be a clever shrewd move. Once they iron out some of the oddities I think people will see this as a real challenge and great alternative to Apple's current dominance in the mobile market.

The people who lose out in all this will be the users - most won't realise what they are losing and so don't really count, it's the technically more savvy users who actually want to use their computers beyond browsing and email that will really lose out.

The businesses who will lose out are going to be large companies like Adobe who I have no doubt will face the challenge of porting their software to the new interface. It is a gamble on the part of MS - it would be very easy for Adobe to say 'they all work great on Mac' let's just dump windows and encourage our users to move to Macs. Given that they are the market leaders for design software it would be a compelling argument for some design companies - and I am seeing a lot of businesses looking at Microsoft suspiciously and wondering if there is longer term security with Apple.

[40hz]

MS wants the average user to forget about traditional computing and desktop apps - they want users to get used to the new WinRT interface - that is where they see their profit both on hardware and in the cloud.

-Carol Haynes (November 25, 2012, 06:59 AM)

I am seeing a lot of businesses looking at Microsoft suspiciously and wondering if there is longer term security with Apple.

-Carol Haynes (November 25, 2012, 06:59 AM)

Spot on!

But I personally don't see businesses looking any less askance at Apple than they do at Microsoft. At least from where I'm sitting. Both Apple and Microsoft are committed to 'single-sourcing' their customers. And that's a situation no savvy business allows itself to be willingly locked into.

There's a good article by Howard Fosdick over at OSNews that sums up much of how I feel about generic hardware and open source software.

Why I Use Generic Computers and Open Source Software
posted by Howard Fosdick on Sat 24th Nov 2012 17:52 UTC

IconDo you depend on your computer for your living? If so, I'm sure you've thought long and hard about which hardware and software to use. I'd like to explain why I use generic "white boxes" running open source software. These give me a platform I rely on for 100% availability. They also provide a low-cost solution with excellent security and privacy.

People's requirements vary, so what I use may not be the best choice for you. I'm a support person for databases and operating systems. I also do consulting that involves research, presenting, and writing. I use my own computers and work from home. This article is about desktops and laptops, not handheld devices.
.
.
.

Read the rest of the article here.

 

[TaoPhoenix]

...
1) 'Domestic' desktop and laptop computers will have become much more marginalised than they are now and so will be less interest to their bottom line. If things continue the way they are now most 'consumer' level users will have shifted to tablets in 3 years time and that is where MS's focus market will be - with the lock-in store and data model.
2) ("Maybe" - added by me) Business users will start to see things the MS way. Personally I have my doubts on this and I can see a lot of businesses still using XP and 7 and not making the move.
...

-Carol Haynes (November 25, 2012, 06:59 AM)

I can see how this could become a class war among the "Consumer" and "Business & Expert" users.
(Notice the Consume part of Consumer. Not Customer! Consumer!    )

The Consumers "want" (with corporate help!) to Consume as fast as possible. Give them their email, their Facebook, their Web browsing, and some Apps (Oh look, it's Shareware but now it's called an App.) So if you only use 8 programs sure, stick them all on a big starter screen. "It's Easy! Click/touch the big button and you don't have to mess with that Desktop thingie that's too hard for me..."

To me what this really is, is a program hardlocking all data it knows to some theoretical folder such as (making this up) Users/Me/Office2013/Data or something. Since it's "Hardlocked" of course the program knows where it is, "Yay, It's All Right There. (TM)" (Concept exercise: make one of our signature "snacks" that forces all programs to save all data in one folder each and block all attempts to save it to anywhere else on that pesky desktop thingie, plus a part that makes you pick you pick your "favorite Apps" and tiles them all over the screen and won't let you do anything else except add and delete more tiles.)

An argument to a strategy I haven't seen yet is if you hardlock all program data to one file tree you can amputate a colossal part of Explorer, maybe half or more. (Folders, viewing tools, file types, who needs all that jazz if you can just call it a "Web File" in one folder?) So then people get used to the idea that they can only access their data *from within the program* which is the ultimate antidote to "terrorist tools like Libre Office" (sarcasm mine) if it's mysteriously "just an Office 2013 file" plus the OS dev costs become like working for Fisher Price.

Then they can offload all that "hard stuff" onto the Business and Expert users, whereupon the end user prices will skyrocket.

Lots of Eew there.

[Carol Haynes]

But I personally don't see businesses looking any less askance at Apple than they do at Microsoft.

-40hz (November 25, 2012, 07:21 AM)

I maybe wrong but I haven't seen evidence yet that Apple are working towards a desktop free future on their laptops and desktop computers. If they have any sense they will see MS's implied intentions and woo the likes of Adobe to become exclusively Apple. It would have a huge effect on creative industries - already many use Apple exclusively but it could win over a whole area of business that MS currently shares.

Given that none of the regulators have yet challenged Apple on monopolist behaviour they would be in a good position (at least in their eyes) to rapidly expand their business base.

Most of the people I deal with (private individuals and small local businesses) are looking at Windows 8 and where it is all going with great suspicion. They don't see Apple as the predatory company that it is - at least not yet - but rather see it is a way to get away from MS.

Linus unfortunately seems to be a non-starter for many people and small businesses as it just doesn't have the software support required.

[Ehtyar]

I haven't read the thread, but I will be waiting for 9 in the hopes that Microsoft come to their senses. If not, I'll either continue to wait depending on how Windows 7 support is still going or finally try to make the move to Linux as my primary desktop OS, though that would make using Windows at work painful.

Ehtyar.

[40hz]

I maybe wrong but I haven't seen evidence yet that Apple are working towards a desktop free future on their laptops and desktop computers. If they have any sense they will see MS's implied intentions and woo the likes of Adobe to become exclusively Apple. It would have a huge effect on creative industries - already many use Apple exclusively but it could win over a whole area of business that MS currently shares.

-Carol Haynes (November 25, 2012, 06:21 PM)

I don't think you're wrong although I am seeing a big drop off in Apple pushing their laptops at least. I think the iPad will ultimately be the MacBook killer in a few more years. And if you go to their website at www.apple.com, you don't even see the Mini or the MacPros pictured on the homepage any more. Which I think is an indication of where Apple's interests and emphasis currently lie.

But yes, if Apple played its cards right, they do have an opportunity to grab larger segments of the business wrold. The Mini is a natural for the corporate desktop. Small, low power, quiet, inexpensive, and it fits into almost any decor...you can get a somewhat expensive extended care contract for it - and it's fully networkable. As an office productivity platform it would work quite nicely for most businesses. You see a lot o them in hospitals around where I am so they're likely making an effort for the medical market.

Either way, this is going to be an interesting year coming up.

[Arizona Hot]

It seems that Microsoft is doing a flanking attack on Apple(goal: Apple pie?) and the "creative" and "out of the box" people are complaining. They expect Microsoft to say "Let them eat cake (Linux)!" next. "Lack of discoverability" seems to be a "lack of documentation" problem. See Tomos' Win8 tips thread. The screenshot below is from Wordnik about discoverability. I hope people don't think this comment belongs in the 'Silly Humor' thread.

Are you going to wait for Windows 9?

[dr_andus]

I hope MS will be still around to launch Win9 because at the moment things are not looking good. Some of their strategies seem decidedly amateurish. Take for example the advertising that focuses on the fact that Surface comes with a kickstand. Seriously? That's the most important thing about it?? And who came up with that amazing name, "Surface"?

Then take the ever-increasing options for the consumer. Do I buy Win8 or WinRT, Metro, or Win8 Pro? Do I need a keyboard for an extra $100 or not? Do I buy an MS manufactured device or one from another manufacturer? Which chipset is better, ARM or Intel? Can I run my Win7 software on the Surface or not? And why should I pay $200-300 more for this than the alternatives (incl. laptops)?

Confused customers don't buy. It's just so much simpler to go for the latest iPad and not have to deal with any of this nonsense.

Take e.g. this:

The 64GB Windows 8 Pro running Intel will be priced $899 and excludes the touch cover, which retails for around $100.

Compare that to the 64GB iPad from Apple, which is priced at $699. The Android-powered 64GB Samsung Galaxy Tab, meanwhile, comes in at around $889, no keypad required.

The problem for Microsoft here is that the keypad is essential on the Windows 8 Pro edition, because – as Microsoft points out in the supporting blog – Windows 8 Pro will run your existing Windows 7 apps, and those apps won’t be built for touch.

This is not MS-bashing on my part. I genuinely want them to succeed because I've invested into this relationship and I love my software on Win7. But this is increasingly looking desperate. Ballmer has looked like a disaster for quite some time. There must be something seriously wrong with their internal processes if they are not able to bring in more talented managers than the current ones who are confusing customers.

[tomos]

@dr_andus
I cross posted that to the Surface RT thread
https://www.donation....msg308820#msg308820

I'm not feeling very positive myself - been thinking most of the problems with 8 are relatively minor (in spite of their big effect) yet they didnt fix them.
Didnt bother fixing them? (Why?)
Or things were maybe too hectic for them to get their act together.

SP1 will be a clue I guess - hopefully something positive.

[wraith808]

Take for example the advertising that focuses on the fact that Surface comes with a kickstand.

-dr_andus (December 01, 2012, 02:35 PM)

Actually (and I'd have to find the article) some experts focus on that very fact as a positive.  Especially in the way that they emphasize how it snaps into place, and the keyboard snaps on the bottom.  A lot of the reticence on entry into tablets has to do with keyboards and the usefulness of them.  This concentrates on that very con.

[mwb1100]

Then take the ever-increasing options for the consumer. Do I buy Win8 or WinRT, Metro, or Win8 Pro? Do I need a keyboard for an extra $100 or not? Do I buy an MS manufactured device or one from another manufacturer? Which chipset is better, ARM or Intel? Can I run my Win7 software on the Surface or not? And why should I pay $200-300 more for this than the alternatives (incl. laptops)?

-dr_andus (December 01, 2012, 02:35 PM)

The interesting thing is that Apple manages this same problem - the iPad is a different platform and set of applications than the Mac, but no one cares or feels confused by that.  I'm not sure why Microsoft can't see that they needed (and still need) to separate the tablet market and the desktop Windows market into distinct areas.  They should still have them work together well - everybody wants that - but they shouldn't try to market the idea that it's the same platform.

Needing to explain the difference between WinRT and Windows or the Surface vs. the Surface Pro is a bad spot to be in.

[dr_andus]

The interesting thing is that Apple manages this same problem - the iPad is a different platform and set of applications than the Mac, but no one cares or feels confused by that.

Needing to explain the difference between WinRT and Windows or the Surface vs. the Surface Pro is a bad spot to be in.

Yes, that seems to be the crux of the matter. With the iPad the OS withdraws into the background and the customer doesn't need to know there is even such a thing. You're buying a consumer device, not an OS. But with Win8 tablets the OS comes to the forefront and becomes an issue. The consumer needs some serious advice in order not to buy the wrong thing. That's a problem for a mass market.

Quote from: dr_andus on Today at 02:35:19 PM
Take for example the advertising that focuses on the fact that Surface comes with a kickstand.

Actually (and I'd have to find the article) some experts focus on that very fact as a positive.

Glad to hear their strategy still got a leg to stand on

[x16wda]

Glad to hear their strategy still got a leg to stand on

-dr_andus (December 01, 2012, 06:31 PM)

Ouch!