Author Topic: Are you going to wait for Windows 9? (Read 67741 times)

dr_andus · « **Reply #75 on:** December 11, 2012, 11:39 AM »

Here's another interpretation of MS's strategy with Win8 from El Reg:

The strategic thinking goes like this: Microsoft needs brute force to coerce a touch-based "ecosystem" into existence, and it's using Windows as the battering ram. Microsoft fears that if it loses "touch" to the iPad and iPhone and Android, then it loses its place in the consumer space altogether. These tablets are increasingly capable of content creation, it notes. And because of this, Microsoft is going to force-feed Windows 8 to millions of PC users on non-touch devices, for whom Metro is nothing but a hindrance, in the hope that the market provides content and applications "designed for Metro".

If Metro 8 is not decoupled from the central non-touch Windows UX, then enterprises will simply shun the upgrade. They don't have the budgets to retrain their staff. In the days when you were moving thousands of people from DOS to Windows, you could argue for a bigger training budget. But the cost/benefit advantage just isn't there in Windows 8. Microsoft doesn't have the power to move its market in the way Apple can – the market would prefer to shun the upgrade, as it did with Vista.

Perhaps Microsoft has justified this with the thought that the mere $4.74bn in quarterly revenues that the Windows division brings in is fairly inelastic – it won't vary much whether Windows is a hit or a flop - and that OEMs have to keep building and buying PCs. So it must have also reckoned that it can afford to take a hit in the short term to preserve Microsoft's relevance in the long term. Perhaps this isn't so crazy. Microsoft's Entertainment division (led by Xbox) now makes almost as much money as Windows.

rgdot · « **Reply #76 on:** December 11, 2012, 02:08 PM »

If you are going to cede to Apple as the ~~innovator~~ successful then MS has little or no choice. The problem though is this ... making out the computer user to be some homogenous group. Someone who is sitting behind a desk using (never mind developing) the next version of Autodesk software has little in common with someone churning out 100 instagram pics a day.

J-Mac · « **Reply #77 on:** January 02, 2013, 11:47 PM »

I must say that trying to wade into Windows 8 blindly is not fun! Frustrated me to no end!

I purchased Lenovo laptops for both of my daughters for Christmas, and yesterday I was at one's house for dinner and decided to install a wireless router for her so she could use the laptop anywhere on her property. Also, my granddaughter has a new iPod and couldn't connect it to the web so it also made her very happy. Setup of the router was a breeze; I used the Linksys WRT54GL that I had "retired" recently at my house. Easy peasy. Then I fired up the new laptop to connect it wirelessly. Ha! So where the hell are the connection/network settings? Looked all around the stupid damn interface... Settings screen has a "WiFi" menu item. But only two items within: Airplane mode on or off, and Connect wirelessly - on or off. That's it. Doesn’t take you anywhere else. The damn machine wanted to keep sending me back to "Personalize your system", but personalization is not permitted until Windows is activated. Windows Activation section can't connect because IT IS NOT CONNECTED TO THE INTERNET!!! Where the hell are the connection settings?!

Took quite some time to find another pop-out menu along the right side - wiggling the mouse all up and down that side would occasionally cause it to appear. I finally clicked on an image of what looked like battery level bars - of course they were actually signal strength bars - and that allowed me to select a network, etc. So I got it done but I was mightily pissed off by the time I did. There is a manual, naturally, and I am one of the idiots that usually read manuals front to back religiously. But the manual was still sealed and looked to be one of those "Overview"-type manuals - probably need to download the read manual online. And my daughter had a lot of other people coming over for dinner so I had to get finished fast. I thought it would take a couple minutes, what with as many wireless connections I've done by now - I am a really old fart, after all! But without the manual it ain't an easy task to find even the necessary settings to setup the doggone machine.

I am now going to look for some full retail Windows 7 licenses to buy up a handful of them. Hopefully I won't have to mess with another Windows 8 OS for a long time. Hate it!

Jim

f0dder · « **Reply #78 on:** January 03, 2013, 01:02 AM »

Took quite some time to find another pop-out menu along the right side - wiggling the mouse all up and down that side would occasionally cause it to appear. I finally clicked on an image of what looked like battery level bars - of course they were actually signal strength bars - and that allowed me to select a network, etc.
-J-Mac (January 02, 2013, 11:47 PM)

It's looked like that since Win7 - and is a pretty standard icon on phones as well

Anyway... one tap of the 'Windows' key, type "net", click settings, see "Network and Sharing Center" - that should take you to something familiar. Figuring that out took me all but a few minutes without RTFM'ing on a fresh Win8 install. And after a minute googling "Windows 8 hotkeys" or "Windows 8 shortcuts", you'll see that Win+Q will take you directly to "search apps" and Win+W takes you directly to "search settings" (you can obviously only do the google search if you have another device available, or after setting up networking, though.

It really isn't all that bad.

J-Mac · « **Reply #79 on:** January 03, 2013, 01:08 AM »

Each search I tried brought me an error page because of no connection. Same with the "Help" search. I think they all default to online searches anymore.

I would guess that the machine you searches on was already connected?

Jim

f0dder · « **Reply #80 on:** January 03, 2013, 03:37 AM »

Each search I tried brought me an error page because of no connection. Same with the "Help" search. I think they all default to online searches anymore.

I would guess that the machine you searches on was already connected?
-J-Mac (January 03, 2013, 01:08 AM)

Didn't do any searches nor did I use help - simply tapped the Winkey and started typing, then looked at the screen. Granted, if you tap the WinKey it's not obvious that you can just start typing (and that's a real issue). But, being used to the Vista/Win7 start menu, I started typing before seeing startscreen :-)

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #81 on:** January 03, 2013, 06:59 AM »

Strange actually the Windows 8 OOBE should stop at a list of WiFi networks and allow you to select and connect to one. I've actually been annoyed by it unnecessarily stopping there on some WiFi AIO machines that were already on active hardwired connections.

Had someone previously been fiddling with the machine causing the OOBE to not run?

J-Mac · « **Reply #82 on:** January 03, 2013, 02:36 PM »

Had someone previously been fiddling with the machine causing the OOBE to not run?
-Stoic Joker (January 03, 2013, 06:59 AM)

This question for me, I guess? No, it was opened by my daughter about ten minutes before I tried connecting it. But all she did was turn it on and the doorbell rang as people started arriving, so she put it down and I picked it up. (I had just then finished setting up the router). Given time I am certain I could have gotten everything configured one way or another. I'm not a coder but I'm not a novice with these confounded machines either! Been setting them up since Commodore/Atari/Radio Shack TRS and then IBM-XT & AT, etc....

This was just extremely unhelpful/unfriendly directly out of the box. IMO there was no simple navigation path to several settings. Understand that once I got the WiFi setup - finally - I faked a little dinner and headed home, as I was pretty sick with something. Still trying to kick it now, thus my rather quick & not-so-informative posts! It just seemed like they're trying to be too cute - making it like a so-called "smart" phone.

Jim

Notok · « **Reply #83 on:** January 11, 2013, 03:22 PM »

It's just different, really. Windows has kept things relatively similar for 17 years, and it's hard to re-learn these things after so many years.

There's plenty of room for improvement, but Windows 8 is the first step for MS along the path to a new way of computing that was laid down by mobile devices. When tablets came around, they started changing how we compute, and it's likely that our desktop systems will be shrunk down into mobile devices at some point in the future, and more and more things will become connected and unified; Windows 8 just provides the framework for MS to keep up as the changes happen. I think that Windows 8 does a good job of balancing new and old; it's pretty easy once you get used to the charms bar and get the start screen customized the way that you want it. I'm actually thrilled to have a full-screen Start screen that gives me a nice clean and organized way to get at the multitude of apps that I install, and having my appointments, tasks, etc. on my start screen as live tiles.

I also think that people's attitude will change a bit when developers start making new and innovative apps. We've got new UI options, and I have no doubt that there will be some brilliant apps to enhance entertainment and productivity. I'm excited to see what Windows Blue will bring, too.

Just before Windows 8 I was starting to think about creating a more unified experience with my mobile devices, PC, HTPC, and so on with network and cloud apps, and when I first booted up Windows 8 my mind started reeling at the potential. I can't wait to see what the future brings!

J-Mac · « **Reply #84 on:** January 11, 2013, 03:51 PM »

Notok, you seem to be extremely high on Windows! I don’t think things are quite as rosy as you paint, though. Their Windows RT launch has been much less than they had hoped. Both Samsung and Toshiba decided to not use RT. Windows 8, while being vaunted by, well, Microsoft and not much of anyone else, is not selling that well - though you have to look past the numbers put out there by Microsoft to see that. See this article in InfoWorld.

They are trying to make the desktop computing experience look like a mobile phone, which seems to be exactly what you like about it. Personally I hate it! Smart phones? meh... I use mine for really necessary lookups but I definitely don’t want it to become my "almost primary" computer. Just light stuff. I still like my desktop - and notebook for that matter - to have lots of processor power, memory, and disk space!

Thanks!

Jim

f0dder · « **Reply #85 on:** January 11, 2013, 04:34 PM »

is not selling that well
-J-Mac (January 11, 2013, 03:51 PM)

"Selling" isn't equal to "good", though - neither Linux nor Win8 are selling particularly well, but OS X and iOS are

The thing I personally like about Win8 definitely isn't Metro (well, a few parts of it, like the Start Screen, but *definitely* not the whole package!) - I do like the kernel optimizations, the hybrid shutdown, the optimization focus (less services, tickless kernel, memory deduplication(!)) etc., though.

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #86 on:** January 11, 2013, 08:19 PM »

The thing I personally like about Win8 definitely isn't Metro (well, a few parts of it, like the Start Screen, but *definitely* not the whole package!) - I do like the kernel optimizations, the hybrid shutdown, the optimization focus (less services, tickless kernel, memory deduplication(!)) etc., though.
-f0dder (January 11, 2013, 04:34 PM)

And from a couple of early rumors I saw a ways back, Windows 9/"Blue" is supposed to be coming along really fast, maybe as soon as this year, and not unlike Vista, they may scale back some of the more aggressive "Metro-ization" of Win 8. I am definitely interested in that sales arc, because I found the marketing around win8 almost deafening, in some ways almost desperate.

Curt · « **Reply #87 on:** January 22, 2013, 12:39 PM »

Are you going to wait for Windows 9?

Listening to music from Windows Media Player, I am remembering why it no longer can minimize to its own toolbar: Microsoft said that too few people were using this feature. The company did not think it was of any importance that the feature both was hard to find and to understand how to start using.

And then it struck me: They will do the same with Windows 9 !:
"How many Win 8 users have been using the advanced features we also knew from Win 7 ?".

Well, we already know the answer to such question; most people does not look for features, because they don't know what to look for - many don't know there is something to look for at all - and they might even be scared to mess things up.

The call-home-"take part in improving Windows"-feature is the worst invention ever.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #88 on:** January 22, 2013, 12:49 PM »

Had Windows 8 on my laptop now for about a month - anyone else notice boot time stretching out?

I haven't installed huge amounts of stuff on it but boot time is becoming quite noticeable (esp. as I boot to desktop, not metro). Even with hybrid shutdown it seems to be taking significantly longer now than when first installed - and, although I haven't empirical evidence, it feels about the same speed as Windows 7 that was installed previously - certainly of the same order.

Microsoft spots this happening and uses the Action Center to try to persuade you to disable startup items - almost all the suggestions are non-MS and I don't want to install useful items.

The other thing I have had to do is disconnect my hotmail account as the login delay before boot would even start was completely unacceptible (and I don't have any emails in my account and no files on SkyDrive). I have reverted to a local account which at least removes MS's delay.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #89 on:** January 23, 2013, 01:07 PM »

PS: Anyone got any idea how to get into advanced startup mode on a laptop with an old fashioned BIOS?

F8 no longer works in Windows 8. You are supposed to be able use SHIFT (and hold) + Restart to get into advanced starup mode - but I can't get it to work on my machine.

Brilliant idea of MS - effectively stops you using System Restore before windows loads if you get an infection !!!!

tomos · « **Reply #90 on:** January 24, 2013, 12:49 PM »

Brilliant idea of MS - effectively stops you using System Restore before windows loads if you get an infection !!!!
-Carol Haynes (January 23, 2013, 01:07 PM)

I did that lately with a recovery disk (sooo slow) but dont know how to do it otherwise.

Curt · « **Reply #91 on:** January 24, 2013, 01:22 PM »

PS: Anyone got any idea how to get into advanced startup mode on a laptop with an old fashioned BIOS?
-Carol Haynes (January 23, 2013, 01:07 PM)

F2 or Delete

f0dder · « **Reply #92 on:** January 24, 2013, 01:24 PM »

PS: Anyone got any idea how to get into advanced startup mode on a laptop with an old fashioned BIOS?
-Carol Haynes (January 23, 2013, 01:07 PM)
F2 or Delete
-Curt (January 24, 2013, 01:22 PM)

I was about to post that as well - but then I realized Carol probably means the Windows boot settings, not the BIOS?

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #93 on:** January 24, 2013, 02:25 PM »

Yes I can get into the BIOS OK - just that F8 no longer does anything in Windows 8 so you can't boot to the advanced startup options. Apparently UEFI allows you to force advanced options but on older BIOS machines that isn't available. So to get to the advanced startup settings you have to boot into windows, to get into safe mode you have to boot windows!!!! Brilliant

How long before malware starts to appears that stops you accessing advanced startup options, safemode and system restore altogether. Won't take a genius to write malicious code to stop system refresh and reinstall too.

Given that almost no machines are supplied with a recovery disk or windows 8 installation disk (and anyway you have to know how to turn off secure boot to get an optical disk to boot at all) troubleshoot malware (such as the FBI crapware discussed elsewhere here) is going to be interesting to say the least!!!!

Recovery disk making is also not that easy to find since they obscured the backup system, and don't even call it backup anymore!!!!

f0dder · « **Reply #94 on:** January 24, 2013, 02:45 PM »

Hm, it makes sense to offer the new Win8-style "advanced boot" selections in addition to the hotkey spamming. On my system, Windows boots so fast that I'd have trouble hitting F8 at the right time (not to mention that I have to wait the few 100msec where the BIOS/UEFI listens to that key for selecting boot device, but need to hit the key before "too late" in the bootloader

).

That's one of the real bad decision, MS.

Anyway, can malware completely block the "restart with advanced boot" thingy? Iirc one of the ways you enable it is shutdown from Ctrl+Alt+Delete - CAD is supposed to be pretty hard to trap.

tomos · « **Reply #95 on:** March 10, 2013, 03:23 PM »

F8 no longer does anything in Windows 8 so you can't boot to the advanced startup options. Apparently UEFI allows you to force advanced options but on older BIOS machines that isn't available. So to get to the advanced startup settings you have to boot into windows, to get into safe mode you have to boot windows!!!! Brilliant
-Carol Haynes (January 24, 2013, 02:25 PM)

I read today that Shift+F8 should work:

Turn on your Windows 8 PC and immediately press and hold Shift + F8 keys till use see Advanced Boot Options screen from where you can boot into the Safe Mode. Do note that you need to press and hold the hotkey while the POST is in progress.

http://www.intowindo...e-mode-in-windows-8/

I tried it on my laptop - it didnt work, but this may be becuse of how Lenovo have it set up (it has a button that will start to a bunch of options including the boot menu).

x16wda · « **Reply #96 on:** March 10, 2013, 06:49 PM »

My HP doc says you should press F11 repeatedly, about once a second, to get to the Win 8 troubleshooting menu. ESC or F10 once a second should get you into the BIOS. FWIW.

dr_andus · « **Reply #97 on:** July 24, 2013, 08:54 AM »

The new UI side of Win8 is aimed at tablets and as such should, I think, be compared with whatever it is they have on iPads and the relevant Androids. That's a world I know nothing about so I cant comment.
-tomos (November 21, 2012, 05:32 AM)

Okay, so how about comparing it to Win7 then? Are the "minor" annoyances you mention outweighed by some major benefit (for Win7 desktop users - or even XP users who may want to choose between Win7 and Win8)?
-dr_andus (November 21, 2012, 09:02 AM)

I just saw this promotional MS graphic doing the rounds, about the benefits of switching from XP to Win8 for businesses. I still can't see any compelling reasons why someone without a touch screen should switch from XP to Win8, rather than Win7. The main argument here seems to be "you'll get access to our store where we can sell you more stuff." That's hardly going to convince a lot of businesses...

Spoiler

40hz · « **Reply #98 on:** July 24, 2013, 09:38 AM »

Microsoft is still in the throes of denial that they have a pooch on their hands with the way they've implemented things. Which is a shame, because the core OS lurking beneath the cruft appears to be quite solid. And now that Ballmer has doubled down on their decisions with the whole "reorganization" (i.e. "We can be just like Apple, just see if we can't!!!") Microsoft is in the process of doing through, don't expect any relief until Ballmer ~~gets booted out~~ announces his retirement.

Unfortunately, Microsoft is a very rich company that can hang tough to protect it's CEO's ego and legacy longer than most. So don't expect the B-man to leave anytime soon...

I'd suggest people start getting familiar with Linux or BSD just so you have a fallback. You may need it sooner than you think with the way Microsoft insists on going, and the unilateral approach they're taking to get us to go there. Because right now it's all about Microsoft and nothing about you.

tomos · « **Reply #99 on:** July 24, 2013, 10:04 AM »

^I wonder how long win7 support is - let's see ... extended support till 2020. Gives me time to think about alternatives and prepare.

The new UI side of Win8 is aimed at tablets and as such should, I think, be compared with whatever it is they have on iPads and the relevant Androids. That's a world I know nothing about so I cant comment.
-tomos (November 21, 2012, 05:32 AM)

Okay, so how about comparing it to Win7 then? Are the "minor" annoyances you mention outweighed by some major benefit (for Win7 desktop users - or even XP users who may want to choose between Win7 and Win8)?
-dr_andus (November 21, 2012, 09:02 AM)

FWIW I'll answer this again - the "minor" annoyances were big enough in the end for me to stop using Win 8 for work with images. I usually tweak a windows install and add a share of software, but Windows 8 requires so much tweaking to make it usable in a desktop scenario (again, with images) that I just could not be bothered.

(My last answer was:)

Spoiler

Okay, so how about comparing it to Win7 then? Are the "minor" annoyances you mention outweighed by some major benefit (for Win7 desktop users - or even XP users who may want to choose between Win7 and Win8)?
-dr_andus (November 21, 2012, 09:02 AM)

I cant say yet - I've only been messing around with it for a week - not using it that much.
I dont use 'the tiles' at all (I'm mostly not even online with the thing so most of those apps are useless to me).

Advantages for me:
I can easily change languages for the complete system.
AV works out of the box - there's been no nagging (some people might consider this a weakness e.g. for basic users)
Task Manager is more than enough for me - in win7 I use process explorer.

(Percieved or real) Disadvantages can mostly be overcome (see my Win8 Tips thread).

Otherwise I'd say it's very similar to Win 7. There's still going to be a learning curve though.
To be honest, if I had to get a new desktop right now, I'd go for windows 7.
But in a couple of months my answer would probably be different.
-tomos (November 21, 2012, 02:16 PM)