Congratz to the US Military Forces!

[mahesh2k]

Bin Laden living in area known to authorities for quite a while.

Now that's something weird, comparing that guy with fuerer, i doubt he'll keep himself in the front to let anyone know where he lives, that too in residential zone like that ?

Osama's DNA was tested ? against whom ? as if they had previous sample to verify ? or their blood relatives to match with ? Besides that they created this puppet and they destroyed it now. There's going to be new puppet from CIA to keep eye on their gas pipelines and other middle east politics.

[wraith808]

Just because something can spiral, does not automatically dictate that it will/must spiral into the eternal abyss (or the dark side if you like... ). Because it is also "true", that only a fool has no fear.

-Stoic Joker (May 02, 2011, 03:12 PM)

I think that 'fear' in that case (and at least in the case of what I'm talking about) is irrational uncontrolled fear.  Fear as in a 'healthy respect for' is reasonable, and definitely helps in survival and decision making.  The other kind- not so much.

[Stoic Joker]

Just because something can spiral, does not automatically dictate that it will/must spiral into the eternal abyss (or the dark side if you like... ). Because it is also "true", that only a fool has no fear.

-Stoic Joker (May 02, 2011, 03:12 PM)

I think that 'fear' in that case (and at least in the case of what I'm talking about) is irrational uncontrolled fear.  Fear as in a 'healthy respect for' is reasonable, and definitely helps in survival and decision making.  The other kind- not so much.

-wraith808 (May 02, 2011, 03:23 PM)

Can't argue that one.

But speaking for the bulk of us infidels, I think the reaction most common in the US (and this thread) was/is of the 2nd (healthy respect) variate of fear...Which I really don't perceive as "hate". But then again my son was at the pentagon that day.

[Eóin]

Osama's DNA was tested ? against whom ? as if they had previous sample to verify ? or their blood relatives to match with ?

-mahesh2k (May 02, 2011, 03:17 PM)

It's been long know who his entire family are, that was never a secret, in fact it couldn't have been more public.

[tranglos]

But the point of the matter is that it is avoidable, for the fact that there are operations where it doesn't happen.

-wraith808 (May 02, 2011, 10:47 AM)

I suppose "collateral damage" is often avoidable in what used to be called "surgical strike" operations (haven't heard of those in a while! Are they all out of fashion now?) when a small, specialized team is sent to perform a small, focused task, like apprehending or killing OBL.

It is never avoidable when you launch a full-scale war like in Iraq or Afghanistan, or even limited air strikes such as in Libya.

[wraith808]

But the point of the matter is that it is avoidable, for the fact that there are operations where it doesn't happen.

-wraith808 (May 02, 2011, 10:47 AM)

I suppose "collateral damage" is often avoidable in what used to be called "surgical strike" operations (haven't heard of those in a while! Are they all out of fashion now?) when a small, specialized team is sent to perform a small, focused task, like apprehending or killing OBL.

It is never avoidable when you launch a full-scale war like in Iraq or Afghanistan, or even limited air strikes such as in Libya.

-tranglos (May 02, 2011, 04:09 PM)

Even in those cases, it is still avoidable.  It just takes a lot more work, and a lot more will.  And you need to limit scope of the operation to the absolute minimum needed for operational success.  It's just that our will to take those risks is very limited, especially because of the risks to servicemen when you start limiting rules of engagement based upon having zero civilian casualties, and the risks to operational success when you start limiting the scope of weaponry utilized.  Then you also have the human element of the soldier on the ground, and there's also the element of the unknown, and the willingness to scrub a mission when the unknown is put into play.

It's difficult to be sure, and can sometimes seem insurmountable in the face of obstacles.  But if you have the will and that is your primary objective, you can do it.

[tranglos]

So, what would you advocate? I ask this not with any sarcasm, I am truly curious as to what you think the alternative should be.

-edbro (May 02, 2011, 10:46 AM)

That really depends on the context. It is one thing to trace and take out a person with a significant history of violent terrorist attacks (but first we'd have to agree on the terms here), and quite another to start bombing the heck out of the Taliban, for example, even though they offered to deliver OBL to Bush back in September 2001. (And no, GWB did not bomb the Taliban because he was a feminist or pitied the loss of ancient Buddha statues!)

When one party launches a military assault on a country, inflicting heavy civilian casualties, what should be done? Should it go unanswered, which would invite more attacks?

-edbro (May 02, 2011, 10:46 AM)

Again, we'd have to agree - very carefully - on all the terms in your description. 9-11 was not a military assault, for one thing. Heavy casualties, yes, but many more died in Afghanistan, and even more in Iraq. Does the response not have to be (a) proportionate, and (b) directed at the actual guilty party?

Next, we should really ask ourselves why we are being attacked in the first place. No-one is born a suicide terrorist. Or a religious fundamentalist. These people have serious grievances. I disagree with their tactics, but we should at least understand what drives them to do what they do.

(Curiously, not long after 9-11 GWB did exactly what OBL wanted done: removed the US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. Troops on Saudi land was one of Osama's major grudges against the US. So Osama got his wish, though of course Bush's move wasn't billed like that.)

I should also remind you that a lot of the collateral damage is caused by cowards who take refuge in population centers and who use women and children as human shields.

-edbro (May 02, 2011, 10:46 AM)

One, I wonder how much of that is propaganda. We only know our side of the story, or what the military commanders want us to know. Remember Jessica Lynch? That was all a fabrication. (Not a "human shield" scenario, but a similarly convenient good guys - bad guys story, all made up.)

Two, if you're about to shoot a bad guy, but he's grabbed your {mother|father|sister|son} and is holding a knife to their throat, will you still shoot? Most people probably won't. The police won't shoot either in such a case. But when it's a war in a distant country, suddenly it becomes OK. Collateral damage is the same, except the dead people live in faraway countries and are not our families, so we paper it over.

People say "Well, it's a war, these things happen", but to me that means we shouldn't be doing that in the first place. We all say war is wrong, but somehow that never stops us. And that's without even approaching the issue of false pretenses for wars, the question of who profits or the question of the end result. Did we get what we wanted in Iraq? Do the Iraqi people think it was worth the price they paid?

I should really shut up now :-) I love how this thread has remained polite and civil despite disagreements, which would never have happened on most sites where politics is the subject, but I don't think we should push it, and I'd hate to be responsible in a smallest part for any hard feelings here. I'll read on, but won't post here after this. Especially as this gentleman says it much more eloquently than I ever could:

http://www.youtube.c.../watch?v=XUBYI97cUgU

[zridling]

Michael Moore's tweets for the last 24 hours:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/

Monday, May 2nd
"The monster we created-yes, WE-in the 1980s by ARMING, FUNDING, &TRAINING him in the art of terror agnst the USSR, finally had 2 b put down."

"Which reporter has the courage to say it? "American-armed terrorist from the 80s, Osama bin Laden, was killed earlier today by America." "

"This caps off disastrous few months 4 Al-Qaeda. Non-violent revolts in Egypt, Tunisia, elsewhere were Al-Qaeda's WORST nightmare. Now this"

"RT @Oranj: 10 years, 2 wars, 919,967 deaths, and $1,188,263,000,000 later, we managed to kill one person. (Next time START w/ the Seals 1st)"

"RT @MLS122171 @MMFlint I think one of the correspondents on CBC last night said he was American armed. Good on him."

"@bencnn: #binladen's appeal in Muslimworld was often wildly overstated by those who had vested professional/financial/institutional interest"

"@Jamiefolk45: @MMFlint The war profiteers should erect a statue of Bin Laden as their greatest benefactor. He made them trillions!"

"RT @arnez8706 Obama: Sorry it took so long to get you a copy of my birth certificate, I was too busy making sure osama got killed"

"'Bin Laden buried at sea.' Total rip-off of last episode, 2nd season of "Sopranos" when Tony dumped Big Pussy overboard."

"OBL buried at sea according 2 Muslim tradition. Yes most Muslim funerals I've attended, we got in a chopper & tossed the deceased in L. Erie"

"BREAKING: All Repub candidates drop out of 2012 race, citing "aversion to losing badly." Would u make Pleasantville play the South Bronx?"

"Now that bin Laden's dead, can we put shampoo in our carry on? Can I keep my shoes on? Can we bring all the troops home?"

"He may be dead, but in a way, he won. We gave up our rights. We passed a PatriotAct. We spent trillions on needless wars. Fear now rules us."

"RT @me_irl Beloved character actor Osama bin Laden, star of TV's "Fox News", dies age 54

"From @jaketapper OBL's DNA was matched w/ that of his sister who died in Boston & whose brain was kept by the U.S. #inaccordancewithmuslimlaw"


Sunday, May 1st
"8 years to the day when Bush put on that costume and falsely declared 'Mission: Accomplished.'"

"A moment of silence for all who died on 9/11."

"So much death and destruction in the last decade... Let's hope this decade is led by actions like those in Tunisia and Egypt..."

"This is somewhat breathtaking -- and right while I was watching "Celebrity Apprentice" on "Mission Accomplished" Day. #coincidence"

"Will Obama need to present the OBL long form death certificate for Trump to believe it? At least bin Laden wasn't killed in Hawaii."

"Andrew Card, Bush Chief of Staff, on ABC now, defensive about why Bush couldn't get bin Laden -- the "War President" had nearly EIGHT YEARS."

"Pundit Hawks on all networks now still trying to stoke the fear: "This doesn't mean the war on terror is over! It could get worse!" #STFU"

"No matter what Obama says, bin Laden's not dead until Donald Trump see's his death certificate. #Deathers"

"From @Oprah : Does this mean the war is over? (Yes, say it is so, Mr. President.)"

"Wow. Horns honking in New York. Huge crowd gathering outside White House cheering Obama after speech."

"They killed him while he was in a mansion! As many of us have said forever, this multi-millionaire bin Laden was never in a friggin' cave."

"It is NOT partisan 2 point out Obama took 2 years 2 do what Bush couldn't do in over 7. It's the dif btwn stupid in charge or smart.

"STUPID pursues 2 reckless wars, let's OBL escape Tora Bora, keeps looking in caves. SMART sends in small strikeforce, no troops killed 2day."

"FOX News: Elderly Man on Dialysis Killed by Young African-American Male"

"Bin Laden already tweeting from hell: @GhostOsama: I retired as the world champion of hide and seek."

"I'm in New York tonight, no one's going 2 bed. It's 1am. There's so much happening Ground Zero packed so many remembering that horrible day."

"Cost of war to the U.S. since 2001: 1.2 trillion dollars. Interrupting Celebrity Apprentice: Priceless. (via Mike Olpin)"
 
* * * * *
"I don't think Bin Laden is hiding in some cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan ... have you ever known a multimillionaire to hide in a cave?" – Michael Moore, April 30, 2008

"Osama bin Laden is a multi-millionaire – and if there's one thing I've learned about the rich it's that they don't live in caves for 9 years. Bin Laden is either dead or hiding out in a place where his money protects him." – Michael Moore, October 7, 2010

[Kamel]

...

[Renegade]

"He may be dead, but in a way, he won. We gave up our rights. We passed a PatriotAct. We spent trillions on needless wars. Fear now rules us."

Bingo!

The US is about the worst country to travel to or travel in (by air). It is much more pleasant to visit "communist dictatorships".

[Renegade]

Time for more humor...

✓ Saddam Hussein
✓ Osama bin Laden
* Justin Bieber

2 down, 1 to go...

[steeladept]

Bah.  All I hear here is about how he should have had a trial.  Does everyone forget the 26 February 2002 trial hearing in absence?  He was tried, found guilty, and sentenced already! Entire case docket can be found here http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm This is in a U. S. Federal Court, agreed, but there was no condemnation then - I don't see why there is so much condemnation now.  To many people forget.  No wonder there are so many Nazi sympathizers in the world today.  They too forget the horrors of WWII.  I agree, there is no reason to ever cheer for the death of another, but there is certainly no reason to grieve or to complain about his death either unless you truly are a sympathizer to his cause.  I, for one, am not.

BTW:  Renegade said it best regarding the rejoicing:

Compare pictures of people rejoicing after 9/11 and the recent pictures of people doing the same thing over Osama. It's the same thing - people screaming for blood.

Lastly I want to note how so many of you remember the just under 3000 tower victims and the uncounted thousands on the other side of the issue, but none seem to remember the others:  USS Cole, Kohbar Tower, and the first World Trade Center bombings just to name 3 of the most notorious occurrences that never get counted.  That also doesn't include the over 5000 US combatants since the war was declared.  If you are going to count ALL victims, count them all on both sides.  It is in the 10s or 100s of thousands on both sides.  I am sicked by these numbers but more for those on the side of the US and it's allies as many more of those were not even aware they were at war during the war and attacks.  It is only the 5000 or so combatants and perhaps a few 100 civilians who have died since the war was declared on the side of the US & allies.  As much as it sickens me to see the jubilee at anyone's death, it sickens me as much when I hear appologists  complaining about the casualties inflicted upon the opponent while ignoring our own that caused the war in the first place!

[Carol Haynes]

Sorry but I can't let that go:

1) The people of Iraq did not cause the war - they had nothing to do with Al Qaeda - even Hussein was opposed to bin Laden (except in the mind of Bush who was looking for any excuse to go after the Iraqi oil revenue and lots of money for his mates).

2) The war in Iraq was illegal because it was purely regime change - and that is illegal under international law

3) The premise for the war - WMD - was proved false and pretty much everyone knew it was false before the war took off - that is why they stopped the UN inspection scheme so abruptly because they weren't coming out with 'helpful' results.

As for casualties in Iraq I have every sympathy and respect for the soldiers (US, UK and others) who found themselves sucked into that war - many of whom have openly said it shouldn't have been fought (including commanding officers) - but WTF were the Iraqi people supposed to do as their cities and towns were flattened by an invading power - just sit and take it and say thank you that wives and children were massacred in blanket bombing raids.

The question now arises what will happen in Afghanistan given that the prime objective of that war was to get bin Laden - and he wasn't even in Afghanistan anyway! Are the US and allies going to pull out now?

Sorry but it makes me really angry to be described as an 'apologist' on the basis of faulty memory and illegal actions that escalate and cause many of these problems.

[steeladept]

Ah, but you notice I never mentioned Iraq, or Afghanistan, or any other location.  I am speaking of the Jihad war that was waged on the entire non-muslim world.  If you want to drag Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other country into it, be my guest.  The war occurs everywhere.  But claiming that the Iraq war IS the war on terrorism is just wrong.

[Renegade]

There is no winning on this topic. When you've got people on different sides killing each other, what is there really to say about it? Either side will be incensed over any attempt to understand the other side, because "they" are "wrong".

So... When can we expect Bieber...

[steeladept]

Hey, he is on my side 

[nosh]

I don't know how legit this is, but if true, AQ have been remarkably successful so far.
Al Qaeda Strategy to the year 2020

[nudone]

If only the US High Command had read that wiki article. 

That wiki reported strategy looks like propoganda - ooh, look how succesful AQ are, they must be really clever and organised, what a terrible foe, we must do everything we can to get them.

In reality, AQ is a label applied to lots of disconnected groups that don't need to communicate with each other or form a strategy on a global scale - but that doesn't sound so good as a foe. Or so I am to believe.

As for OBL - again, as I am lead to believe (or simply want to believe) - he isn't even important in a strategic sense. He'll continue to be the mascot for many believers I'm sure, no doubt his stylised poster adorning many misguided student dorms in years to come.

I see they are now reporting rubbish about him hiding behind his wife to avoid getting shot. Maybe this is true - or is it simply total crap - it sounds like an idiotic way to portray the man as even more pathetic than he'd become.

[nosh]

I'm not vouching for the wiki article but I do believe they have a general strategy or direction, even if it's something as simplistic as "kill the kafir!" (it's probably a little more complex than that)  

US agents have discovered a lot of info from OBL's villa, let's hope it's more than mere training manuals and leads to something good.

[edbro]

The question now arises what will happen in Afghanistan given that the prime objective of that war was to get bin Laden -

-Carol Haynes (May 02, 2011, 08:42 PM)

That is simply not true. The objective was never just to get bin Laden. The objective was, and still is, to destroy Al Qaeda and limit terrorism.

[tomos]

What bothers me about the whole thing is: this idea that you can win a war. I suspect the only people who really believe that, are people who have never been invaded, or have never lived in a warzone.

Think about it this way, say you want to teach someone a lesson. Beating the crap out of them is one way of doing it, but they're probably not going to forget and/or forgive for a very long time. As to whether they actually take your "lesson" on board, well...

I grew up in a time & place where, within a couple of hundred miles of me, people were killing each other on an almost daily basis - for twenty years and more. Each side was trying to persuade the other side of something, or get "justice" - or revenge - or all of these things. People talked about atrocities that happened decades, even centuries previously. At one stage, I even believed that one side was "right". I didn't condone what they were doing, but "understood" where they were coming from. All BS in the end. Cause violence as a solution to a problem just makes things worse, and worse, and worse.

I'm not saying I have alternatives, or god help us, the answers. I'm just pointing out: it's not as simple (unfortunately) as lots of people would like to think it is.

[tsaint]

I am hearing how OBL should have had a trial. Without taking any position on that I wonder:
1. where it would have been held. If he wasn't extradited to the USA with all legal formalities observed, could the defence have got him off on a technicality?
2. Would his entitlement to a "fair" trial be jeopardized by the publicity/reporting since 9/11. I would imagine defence lawyers rejecting jurors wholesale.
3. Whilst he was awaiting trial, how would the increase in hostage taking by pro-OBL elements be countered?

I'm sure there must be another thousand practical issues to be considered ... so easy to call for a trial as a spectator. Buggered if I know the answer.

[nosh]

A possibility just crossed my mind - what if they have him alive in a dungeon somewhere? Would make perfect sense from a counter-terrorism POV. No accusations of torture, easy to produce and verify DNA evidence and show the world it was indeed him, even easy to fake death images or video if you have the guy alive.

[Renegade]

A possibility just crossed my mind - what if they have him alive in a dungeon somewhere? Would make perfect sense from a counter-terrorism POV. No accusations of torture, easy to produce and verify DNA evidence and show the world it was indeed him, even easy to fake death images or video if you have the guy alive.

-nosh (May 03, 2011, 11:18 PM)

I'd expect Al Quaida to storm in with their +5 Vorpal daggers, boots of speed, potions of healing, fireballs and magic missiles~!

[nosh]

You're really going for that clown badge, aren't you?   

Funny tho!