Author Topic: I'm beginning my experiment with Linux and other OS's. (Read 27214 times)

superboyac · « **on:** December 19, 2009, 07:19 PM »

Well, after havng it on my mind for a long, long time, I'm finally experimenting with a Linux installation. For now, I've gone with openSuse because Zaine raves about it so much. I just installed it, so I don't have much to say at this point. It was a pretty painless and fast install. But if I remember correctly, Windows 7 was pretty easy also. Anyway, so far so good.

Now, first thing to mention is that it is fast. There is no hint of the sluggishness that I'm used to with Windows. Again, I have no technical stats to back this up, this is all on personal feel so far. In defense of Windows, on my latest computer which is really nice and powerful, I don't really have any problems with sluggishness. However, my whole gripe with Windows is that it needs way too powerful hardware to do what it does. Anyway, this is something I'm sure I'll have more to say on as I go along.

My primary reasons for doing this is the following:
--My love/hate relationship with Windows. I've always been a Windows geek, so I'm attached to and love all the software I use. But I hate how you have to be constantly tweaking it and taking care of it to make sure you have no problems. If I wasn't the person that I am, my computer could quickly degenerate into a sluggish, chaotic mess that would run into issues every other minute. I'm older and busier now, i don't have time to indulge all my geek desires. And no matter what anyone says, I strongly feel that for the power of any given pc's hardware, Windows makes very poor use of it. I feel like with what this current computer has, everything should be so fast that it's blinding. But of course, it's nowhere near that. Don't get me started on 5 year old computers.

--I'm just curious what involved in the Linux world. I don't know jack about it at this point. The visual feel of opensuse certainly looks familiar to me, so I'm able to get around. I don't quite understand the idea behind files, folders, executables, etc. at this point. It all looks normal and Windows-like. That's all I can say. I know, not very deep.

Zaine, my cloud computing experiment is not far behind. Although, I'm not a big fan of doing things on the web. But I'm wondering if there is still a place for it in my life for the less important things like communication, accessibility from everywhere, etc. It's just that I want all my files locally and I want to control everything locally, or have it backed up locally. I don't know yet.

40hz · « **Reply #1 on:** December 20, 2009, 08:20 AM »

I should let Zaine say it first, so I'll just say: +1 with zridling for when he does!

cyberdiva · « **Reply #2 on:** December 20, 2009, 10:01 AM »

Hi, superboyac. Your message really resonated with me. I too have been very frustrated with Windows' sluggishness, vulnerability to malware, and wastefulness (in terms of how many resources and how much power one needs to get it to work well). However, in spite of having heard good things about Linux for quite a while, I've never given it a try. Yeah, I'm a coward, but it's not just that. There are two other reasons for my staying with Windows. One is the software. I love the wealth of programs available, the number of people who use them and can thus be of help, and the fact that many of the programs have documentation I can understand. I can't imagine giving up programs such as Linkman, Directory Opus, Clipmate, and HyperSnap, to name just a few.

In addition to the software issue, there's also something about the Linux world that really puts me off. When I read explanations of how to do something in Linux, I tense up. The terminology, the assumptions about what a user knows and is comfortable with, seem very alien. They remind me of the experience I had back in the early-to-mid '90s when I was doing most of my work on mainframes and was trying to read man pages to understand Unix. With enough work and patience, I could often decipher what I needed to know, but I hated it. Perhaps if I immersed myself in Linux for five or ten years, I might eventually feel more comfortable and capable, but frankly, I just don't think it's worth it--life is too short.

Anyway, I'll be following your experiment with great interest and admiration.

Shades · « **Reply #3 on:** December 20, 2009, 04:09 PM »

The lack of a decent file-manager similar to Directory Opus is my main reason for not jumping ship. Most of my time spent on a computer is more or less on anything except playing games.

But file-management in the linux GUI is like going back into the stone age...to a similar level as explorer in windows. Although Midnight Commander is a very reliable app and makes file-management a lot easier than any GUI solution, it is still not even close to the level I am accustomed to with Directory Opus.

Having said that, I do use several Linux servers in my setup and although they can be harder to setup initially, but are more reliable and their maintenance is a lot less problematic.

So good luck on your travels in Linux space, superboyac.

4wd · « **Reply #4 on:** December 20, 2009, 04:53 PM »

... it is still not even close to the level I am accustomed to with Directory Opus.
-Shades (December 20, 2009, 04:09 PM)

If you don't mind going back to DOpus' Amiga origins you could try Worker.
From the Directory Opus 4 Research Project:

Worker is a pretty accurate clone of the original Amiga DirOpus. It nearly looks and feels like the original. Distributed under the GPL.

I'm beginning my experiment with Linux and other OS's.

superboyac · « **Reply #5 on:** December 20, 2009, 05:11 PM »

cyberdiva, yes I love the programs I use on Windows also. But there are a couple of things to consider there. First, why have we adopted the software we use? Well, because we're using Windows, we have to use Windows-compatible software, and we don't even look at the programs available to other OS's. There must be awesome programs we've never even thought about because we wouldn't be able to use it on our Windows. So, this is an opportunity to check those programs out. And according to Zaine, there are plenty and they are pretty good. And even though I don't use Macs, I've seen some pretty cool Mac programs.

The other thing to think about is since the large majority of computer users are Windows users, obviously we're going to find more programs for Windows. More free, more shareware, more bad programs, more good programs, more of everything. This is my primary area of concern for switching. I love being able to find EXACTLY what I want because there are so many options. However, in defense of the others, just because there aren't as many options doesn't mean that what's available isn't what you're looking for. All it takes is one program to satisfy you. Frankly, as we all know, there's a ton of crappy Windows software out there.

Anyway, it's all a matter of being able to experiment and opening our minds up. Let go of emotions, and be rational about the whole thing. After all, it's only software, there's no need to be emotionally tied to it.

40hz · « **Reply #6 on:** December 20, 2009, 05:26 PM »

Let go of emotions, and be rational about the whole thing. After all, it's only software, there's no need to be emotionally tied to it.
-superboyac (December 20, 2009, 05:11 PM)

I'm glad to hear somebody (other than me

) saying that.

It *is* only software.
Thx SB!

superboyac · « **Reply #7 on:** December 20, 2009, 06:26 PM »

haha, yeah 40. Just to be a hypocrite, I will reserve the right to say I LOVE certain software, because that's something positive. I just love it when things are done the right way.

Anyway, I've been having a nightmare of a problem installing flash on my opensuse. I went to youtube, it said I needed flash, so i went to download it. Then I installed it using something called YUM, but that didn't work, I got an error. Then I downloaded a tar.gz file, used the Ark software to open it. That keeps crashing and crashing over and over. So, that's not good. Something as simple as flash should install relatively easily. Just a heads up. This thread may turn into my linux journal.

superboyac · « **Reply #8 on:** December 20, 2009, 06:33 PM »

ok, i can't figure out how to install flash and I'm super frustrated. What a pain. i give up.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #9 on:** December 20, 2009, 10:07 PM »

ok, i can't figure out how to install flash and I'm super frustrated. What a pain. i give up.
-superboyac (December 20, 2009, 06:33 PM)

Do tell us you're only giving up on flash and not the entire Linux project!?!

Stay the course man! Flash is crap anyway...

superboyac · « **Reply #10 on:** December 20, 2009, 10:24 PM »

I gave up temporarily. Flash IS crap. Not necessarily the software itself, but the installation, the update notices, all that is surrounding it. Such an obnoxious program.

40hz · « **Reply #11 on:** December 20, 2009, 10:37 PM »

Odd. If you're running Suse 11.2, Flash should already be installed. Flash Player should show up in the menu under More Applications

Just to play it safe, after your initial installation, open YaST** and select the online update option. Run that and install all the updates it finds. (If you haven't already.

)

If that doesn't fix it, just remove Flash using YaST, and then reinstall it.

If you're completely new to Suse, check out this article over at www.howtoforge.com and follow along. It uses the Live Gnome version of the installer, but you can extrapolate if you're installing from the full DVD.

http://www.howtoforg...-opensuse-11.2-gnome

Note: I ran into the exact same problem with a client using Firefox where YouTube could not find Flash under WinXP. Turned out it was a pop-up blocker setting that was causing the problem.

Luck, and let us know how it's working out.

---------------
**Eeeeeek!!! Not sure why you are using YUM btw. YaST is the preferred installer for Suse. If you're new to it - stick to YaST. YUM is a royal PITA to set up manually - and last I heard, it was removed from the 11.x repositories since it doesn't get along too well with Python 2.6 which is the default version Suse's repository will install.

40hz · « **Reply #12 on:** December 20, 2009, 10:45 PM »

Flash IS crap. Not necessarily the software itself, but the installation, the update notices, all that is surrounding it. Such an obnoxious program.
-superboyac (December 20, 2009, 10:24 PM)

Hmm...maybe not crap - but it is getting to be an obnoxious little bugger to work with as well as an occasional security concern. Hopefully, a future version of HTML will eliminate the need for basic video playback plugins once and for all. (yeah right! $:-\$ )

Shades · « **Reply #13 on:** December 20, 2009, 10:47 PM »

... it is still not even close to the level I am accustomed to with Directory Opus.
-Shades (December 20, 2009, 04:09 PM)

If you don't mind going back to DOpus' Amiga origins you could try Worker.
From the Directory Opus 4 Research Project:
Worker is a pretty accurate clone of the original Amiga DirOpus. It nearly looks and feels like the original. Distributed under the GPL.
-4wd (December 20, 2009, 04:53 PM)

Thanks 4wd

Till now I didn't even knew that this project even existed. If it works just as smooth, I'm in for a treat

(sorry for repeating it but I am and always will be an Amiga fanboy)

cyberdiva · « **Reply #14 on:** December 20, 2009, 11:38 PM »

Superboyac, I don't feel that I choose software because it's Windows-compatible. I choose it because it does what I want. I don't think I've ever had to settle for a different program because the one I wanted wouldn't run on Windows. Perhaps if I were heavily into graphics design, I might well have had such experiences (or I might be using a Mac).

While I haven't felt constrained in my software choices, I know several people who switched from Windows to a Mac, and none of them found equally satisfactory software to replace the Windows programs they could no longer run. Indeed, Scot Finnie wrote about this issue at some length in his newsletter when he made the switch to a Mac. So no, I don't agree that I'd find equally satisfying programs if I were to move from Windows to a different OS. It's not a matter of having a closed mind or of being irrational. Quite the contrary. Paying attention to what's available for other operating systems--and what's not--seems to me quite rational.

So while I share your frustration about Windows, I don't see myself making the switch to another operating system anytime soon. And software is one of the main reasons I'll stay with Windows.

JavaJones · « **Reply #15 on:** December 20, 2009, 11:51 PM »

I agree, software makes the platform. I'm starting to tinker with Linux a bit because I've moved to a new web host, vps.net, and it basically demands I "dig in" a bit to get what I want. But it's commandline-only, and the software I'm installing is all to the end of a full-featured web server. It's a totally different need from a desktop. Still, it has piqued my interest a bit in trying the desktop experience again some time (my past experience is basically limited to "Live" CDs). I figure I'll do it in a VM, but then part of me feels like maybe that's not really giving it a full shake, I would never really use it to its fullest...

Incidentally I'm not sure why the "Macs are better for graphics" myth continues. That hasn't been true for a decade or so now. While there are admittedly a few (very few) Mac-only applications for graphics work, the vast majority are cross-platform or PC-specific. In fact as I hear it PC was the lead platform for the latest Adobe Creative Suite...

- Oshyan

superboyac · « **Reply #16 on:** December 21, 2009, 12:38 AM »

Geez, 40hz, I said it before and I'll say it again...is there anything you don't do?? I feel like you are me, only you've done everything a couple years before I have! Tell me, what does the future hold for me?

cyberdiva, I didn't mean to sound berating or anything. I was more talking to myself, sorry. It's part of the process I'm going through to open my mind up to non-Windows OS's.

superboyac · « **Reply #17 on:** December 21, 2009, 01:11 AM »

OK, I'm annoyed by a couple of other things in opensuse:

--I have to keep entering my admin password for any kind of tweaking, even though I keep checking the "remember the password" option. How do I just remain logged in permanently as an admin?

--I have a lot of little crashes in programs. I was just just clicking around the different programs, and I got a couple more.

The thing is, I'm sure all of these things can be fixed easily if you are familiar with the system. But I don't have the time at this point. I was hoping that it would be really easy to use. Maybe I'm overthinking it. I don't know at this point.

f0dder · « **Reply #18 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:48 AM »

There is no hint of the sluggishness that I'm used to with Windows.
-superboyac (December 19, 2009, 07:19 PM)

Even with accelerated video drivers, stuff like resizing windows tend to be sluggish compared to Windows because of the way X11 and the various graphics toolkits work. And last time I had a native linux install on my workstation, the default gnome text editor started in about the same time as Visual Studio 2005... not impressed. Also, second-time (hot-from-cache) launches weren't much faster, leaving me thinking that there's something horribly broken somewhere. I guess things could have changed since those couple of years back, but seeing how slow stuff launches on friends Linux and OS X laptops, I'm not convinced.

But I hate how you have to be constantly tweaking it and taking care of it to make sure you have no problems.
-superboyac (December 19, 2009, 07:19 PM)

You do? I haven't experienced this since the Win9x days, and that's even though I install/uninstall a lot of stuff. Since jumping onto Win2k, things have run pretty well unless I've messed up majorly, say by writing buggy driver code and testing it on my main machine rather than a VM or dedicated test box. Same goes for all the machines I've managed.

And no matter what anyone says, I strongly feel that for the power of any given pc's hardware, Windows makes very poor use of it.
-superboyac (December 19, 2009, 07:19 PM)

IMHO it does - each new version of Windows has raised the minimum hardware requirements, and not always by justified amounts, but at the same time has been better at utilizing higher-end machines. While Win7 has higher requirements than XP64, it certainly runs a whole lot better on my workstation. Same goes for Vista on my laptop (which isn't even all that powerful). If anything is sluggish it's the applications - and if that bothers you, stick with older versions instead of going for latest-and-greatest if you don't need it. I could live with Office2000 just fine, which is blindingly fast compared to 2003 and 2007... but because of cost, I stick with OpenOffice which is a sluggish pig even compared to Office2007.

When I read explanations of how to do something in Linux, I tense up. The terminology, the assumptions about what a user knows and is comfortable with, seem very alien.
-cyberdiva (December 20, 2009, 10:01 AM)

Amen to that - despite the polishing-up of a lot of distros, linux just isn't written for regular users. As soon as you need to do something slightly non-trivial that the GUI frontend won't let you do (mindbogglingly difficult and unordinary tasks like using multiple monitors come to mind) you gotta drop to a terminal and very poor documentation.

Anyway, it's all a matter of being able to experiment and opening our minds up. Let go of emotions, and be rational about the whole thing. After all, it's only software, there's no need to be emotionally tied to it.
-superboyac (December 20, 2009, 05:11 PM)

One thing is being emotionally attached, another is being disappointed with mostly half-assed clones of Windows software.

Incidentally I'm not sure why the "Macs are better for graphics" myth continues.
-JavaJones (December 20, 2009, 11:51 PM)

Yeah, that does seem pretty silly

How do I just remain logged in permanently as an admin?
-superboyac (December 21, 2009, 01:11 AM)

You don't, just like you don't turn off UAC on Vista/Win7. You don't need to (and really really shouldn't) be logged on as admin for extended periods of times.

zridling · « **Reply #19 on:** December 21, 2009, 05:35 AM »

Wow, sorry I just arrived. Been a busy weekend testing a variety of distros among a room full of systems. Glad to see others have jumped in and advised SuperboyAC. Now on to SB's first impressions and other things.

- There are tons of "tip" sites, blogs, pages around. Google is your friend, as am I. Check out the "linux help" blogroll section on my blog at:
http://www.thegsblog.com/

- I compare switching OSes to switching languages. Speaking the new one takes time. Immersion is your best friend. Dual-booting will make you schizophrenic. Imagine an Apple person migrating to Windows. It looks familiar, but file management and software installations are different for each one.

- Don't fall in love with any one distro; instead find the one that works for you. For example, MEPIS, Mint, and Mandriva are three that are highly polished and stylized. The real difference is which desktop environment you will use: KDE or GNOME. Each one is good; both are lacking something the other does well. I settled for KDE4 because I can make it look like Win7, OSX, or heck, what I want, which is a clean desktop, but a loaded taskbar. Explore the UI. For example, if you right-click the KDE START button, you can edit the application menus and structure. I like openSUSE's implementation of KDE. But kubuntu's no slouch, nor is sidux. A site like Planet KDE will inform you as you go.

- Don't get hung up on the fast upgrade cycle. Some distros like Ubuntu upgrade every six months. Others every 9-12 months, and some when they're damned well ready (Debian). Keep your \home folder on a separate partition and you'll retain all your data, and for the most part, your application tweaks.

- Your days of buying software are [mostly] over. The only software I bought for Linux was Nero/Linux. And KDE's K3B app is actually better. All the browsers have full Linux versions. Opera, Firefox, and Chrome come with all the extensions and themes you'll want on Linux. Text editing, programming, and web development is pretty fantastic. I could go on. (I don't play games except chess and solitaire, so I can't advise you there. The GNU Chess app will beat you every time.)

- Discover the Droid fonts. They're nice. Along with that, subpixel rendering. Makes every word on the screen crystal clear with a decent monitor.

- Use the software what you know. You'll be surprised at how much cross-platform software is around. I do FTP with Filezilla. I archive with 7-Zip. Word process and spreadsheet work with OpenOffice, etc. No need to reinvent those wheels.

- Don't think you have to love it, but realize a few of Linux's advantages. You will save money because your software budget can now go for new hardware or something ... anything else. Two of my formerly favorite Windows apps recently tripled in price. Instead of being pissed, I had a laugh over it. You have a choice of filesystems now. Your data just got a lot safer. File transfers are fast again. So is your processor.

I could go on, but you get the drift. I have a Win7 machine in the corner of my basement if I need it. I also have it virtualized using VirtualBox. My wife's work laptop uses Windows. So I'm not completely gone. I've had a blast making the switch. After more than two decades of using Microsoft OSes, I earned the right to try something different. Turns out that right now, Linux is pretty nice, and has come a long way in just three years.

40hz · « **Reply #20 on:** December 21, 2009, 08:07 AM »

I feel like you are me, only you've done everything a couple years before I have!
-superboyac (December 21, 2009, 12:38 AM)

That's only because I'm more than a few years older than you so I've had more time.

Tell me, what does the future hold for me?
-superboyac (December 21, 2009, 12:38 AM)

Many many many good things. (Count on it.)

The thing is, I'm sure all of these things can be fixed easily if you are familiar with the system. But I don't have the time at this point.
-superboyac (December 21, 2009, 01:11 AM)

FWIW Suse is more of a second distro than a first if you're new to Linux. (At least as far as I'm concerned.)

If you really just want to get our feet wet with minimal hassles, give Mint (http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php) a try. It's what I usually suggest to beginners who ask me where to start. Mint is a very elegant rework of Ubuntu. Well worth the download.

cyberdiva · « **Reply #21 on:** December 21, 2009, 08:58 AM »

cyberdiva, I didn't mean to sound berating or anything. I was more talking to myself, sorry. It's part of the process I'm going through to open my mind up to non-Windows OS's.
-superboyac (December 21, 2009, 12:38 AM)

Hey, superboyac, rest assured that I didn't think you were berating. I recognized that you were referring to your own thoughts and attitudes. I just wanted to make it clear that, though I agreed with much of what you said about your experience with Windows, what you said about software didn't really apply to me.

I'm finding this thread very interesting. Mostly, though, it's reinforcing my feeling that although I have many misgivings about Windows, that OS is probably the best one for me, given my needs and limitations.

Innuendo · « **Reply #22 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:44 PM »

cyberdiva, yes I love the programs I use on Windows also. But there are a couple of things to consider there. First, why have we adopted the software we use? Well, because we're using Windows, we have to use Windows-compatible software, and we don't even look at the programs available to other OS's. There must be awesome programs we've never even thought about because we wouldn't be able to use it on our Windows...<stuff snipped>...After all, it's only software, there's no need to be emotionally tied to it.
-superboyac (December 20, 2009, 05:11 PM)

My days of being emotionally attached to a OS & software ended the day I sold my Amiga. I have looked and found the best software available that fits my needs & as crazy as that may sound, that software is programmed to run on the Windows OS.

Total Commander, foobar2000, mp3tag, AnyDVD, and others are the best for my uses and they do things that are not capable in any other program on any other OS. I must not be alone in my thinking as the user support forums for all these programs get swarmed regularly by people begging for these programs to be ported to OS X or Linux.

The only program I really feel like I am missing out on due to my OS of choice is QuickSilver for OS X & I am not going to give up what I have just so I can run that.

Innuendo · « **Reply #23 on:** December 21, 2009, 02:45 PM »

If you don't mind going back to DOpus' Amiga origins you could try Worker.l])[/i]
-4wd (December 20, 2009, 04:53 PM)

That screenshot brought back fond memories of my time on the Amiga...and fond memories of a time when Directory Opus was sanely priced.

sajman99 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 21, 2009, 03:53 PM »

I haven't kept up with the development of PCLinuxOS but last I checked it delivered a hassle free out-of-the-box experience suitable for a Linux newb like me. I honestly wasn't expecting much when I tried it a few years ago, but PCLinuxOS just blew me away with its professional appearance and hardware compatibility. Also, updating software was very easy (IIRC) with PCLinuxOS. Anybody use this distro?