RANT: High Software Prices!

[zridling]

I've got to get this off my mind. I love software. Software makes the system, to me; hardware always takes a backseat. But as overall software prices have risen over the past three years, some vendors seem to have gone out of their way to raise prices. While one company, such as GPSoft (Directory Opus), holds the line by retaining or lowering their upgrade price, another, such as Adobe, are increasing the price of some of the software by 33% for their most recent upgrade. Between multiple versions which no one wants (Microsoft Vista!) — just give me the BEST program you build, keep that other weak crap to yourself, Mr. Software Vendor — increasingly aggressive activation schemes, falsely marketed "Lifetime licenses," hostile EULAs (one copy per "device"), the encroachment of subscription software (boo!!), and devs who tell devoted users to shutup, pay up, or get lost, I'm getting pissed.


Peter Finch as Howard Beale in Network (1976)
(Relevant YouTube clip #1)
(Relevant YouTube clip #2, longer)

More and more I'm looking for and donating money and feedback to open source and donationware programs where I can find them. I'm just sick of companies like Microsoft and Adobe who all but say: If you want to use our software, you'll tolerate whatever we require you to do, or we'll invalidate your license key. (Then you're stuck on the phone begging.) Better, let's start listing all the companies and software vendors that treat their registered users well!

[nosh]

This is exactly why software piracy is such a thriving business. A very small percent of users of big names like Photoshop are actually paid users. The software vendors need to completely revamp their business model to penetrate this mostly untapped market. If they drastically reduce their profit margins (depending upon the target country) they will make headway coz given a choice between low cost genuine software and low-cost/free pirated software (buying/downloading off shady characters/sites, unreliable delivery media, potential for malware, complete lack of support) most people would pay that little extra and go for the original.

With the open-source/freeware explosion happening these guys are sooner or later going to have to start slashing their prices badly to stay afloat anyway, why not do it right away? Start thinking out of the box, cash into what is legitimately yours instead of screwing the few honest people left by transferring all the burden onto them.

[brotherS]

zridling: I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, 'I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to pay those prices anymore!'

I totally agree with what you said.

PS: If you didn't watch the movie, you might be slightly confused now. No problem, just watch the movie.

[tomos]

zridling: I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell, 'I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to pay those prices anymore!'

PS: If you didn't watch the movie, you might be slightly confused now. No problem, just watch the movie.

-brotherS (April 17, 2007, 06:11 AM)

I never even heard of the movie but had a good  at that one!!

More and more I'm looking for and donating money and feedback to open source and donationware programs where I can find them. I'm just sick of companies like Microsoft and Adobe   ....   Better, let's start listing all the companies and software vendors that treat their registered users well!

-zridling (April 17, 2007, 05:27 AM)

I think people are looking for alternatives - you see it here all the time & I know I am too - I use graphic software but dont get paid equivalent prices - even if i did I'd be looking - & am looking - at alternatives at the prices Adobe wants.

They (Adobe et al) are going to suffer in the long run when all of a sudden Photofiltre or Xara or whoever takes over their world

[pro3carp3]

This is exactly why software piracy is such a thriving business.

No, software piracy thrives because the pirates are thieves.  I don't like high prices either, but we don't have a 'right' to low cost software.  The prices will be as high as the market will bear.

[Curt]

This is exactly why software piracy is such a thriving business.

No, software piracy thrives because the pirates are thieves.  I don't like high prices either, but we don't have a 'right' to low cost software.  The prices will be as high as the market will bear.

-pro3carp3 (April 17, 2007, 07:17 AM)

I totally agree with you on this, pro3carp3. The Adobe market is not us, the private users, but the companies. And they will  have to pay whatever Adobe thinks the market will bear. And history shows that if AnyCompanyInc put up a low Private-Home-User-Only price, the companies will cheat. So they keep the high one price only policy. And the private home user is the victim. Too bad. Adobe and AnyCompanyInc are very well aware that the world is crowded with people who will demand to receive everything for free, without even saying Thank You, but only demanding to have more, more, more, never paying the price. Why should any company try to please such non-customers? No, of course not.

[app103]

It has come to the point where I don't know what a reasonable price for anything is any more.

What would be reasonable to someone that has a lot of money in their pocket isn't the same as what it would be to someone with nothing in their pocket.

The thing that will keep me from ever becoming a shareware author is the idea of reasonable pricing. I am afraid to set a price because no matter what I choose, it could be unreasonably high to someone somewhere who might need it....or unreasonable for what I am providing. (is it really worth the price I am asking?)

I'll just let the user decide what is reasonable...it's a whole lot easier. 

But I am seeing that a lot of what mouser said about donationware is very true.

From my personal experiences a few things have become very clear to me:

1. If I had $1 for every time someone downloaded one of my programs, I would be a very wealthy woman. 

2. With the amount I currently make on my software, I would have to produce 6-8 new applications a month to earn enough to barely cover my bills. (and I am a very frugal woman)

3. When I create something, I do it because I enjoy it. But it is work...and it can be frustrating, exhausting, hard work. It's not something I can do all day, every day. I would quickly burn out. 

4. I am not qualified to go work for some software company on their projects. I am not all that qualified for anything, really. And that was one of the reasons why I wanted to learn programming in the first place. I hoped some day I would know enough to be able to do it professionally and make enough to pay my bills....and be able to enjoy what I am doing. But it doesn't look like that will ever happen. I still have a lot to learn, I am not learning it any faster, and I am not getting any younger. 


Which brings me to my announcement:

As of today, I am increasing the prices on all my software 150%. 

Wait a minute....

I am charging $0...a 150% increase is still $0.

Guess that means you are safe. 

Seriously though...I am developing a deep hatred for money. Or rather should I say developing a deep hatred for needing it. I am disgusted at the prices for everything...from software to food to housing to education to medical care...everything.

I can't even look at it as a necessary evil...it's just evil.

And I think we are all sharing the same feeling of being trapped.

[Perry Mowbray]

I had never really thought about this in this area before... but I've been saying/complaining for a long time that when banks moved their customer focus from the people who put money in their banks or borrowed money from them to their share holders there was a significant drop in what a bank will do for me as a money depositing customer.

I guess the big software companies have gone the same way, where their main customers are their share holders, i.e. that's who they ultimately answer to?? Obviously you still have to turn a profit, but it gets pretty murky when you're divided between the two.

And I agree with you App: that this thing of money having to dominate every decision we make as an individual, company or country is just plain evil.

[zridling]

So right, App103, so right. Look around at other things, too. A quart of oil to put in your car is now $7 here; gas, $3/gallon, hell even macaroni & cheese is a freakin' $1.11 now. I LIVED off that stuff for years. It just seems that if you're not constantly giving them money, i.e., "revenue stream for their stock, etc.," then you can't play with their toys. All the more reason to support open source when you find something you like.

TOMOS, if you haven't seen the movie Network, make sure you rent it. It was released over 30 years ago, but could have been written yesterday. HERE is just one clip from the movie, among its many memorable scenes. The great thing about the internet and blogs is that they are so much better than newspapers and traditional media. Heck, a blogger got the story right about the Virginia Tech shooting yesterday, and every single amerikan network had the story completely wrong. "If you want to the truth, go to the internet."

[Darwin]

Yup, agree with pro3carp3 and Curt but I *think* that we're straying into the philosophical realm here in that I don't think that people who use cracks, hacks and serialz are necessarily career criminals but rather people who... ah fuck it. They're thieves and there is no justification for it.

When I can't afford (or won't pay) a vendor's high prices, I look for alternatives (Open Source, shareware, Freeware, Donationware), rather than running a pirated version of something. This is, for want of a better word, a moral decision on my part, because I don't want to be a thief!

My gut tells me that there is a distinction lurking here to be defined but, on balance, I know lots of people who run pirated software and most of them can more than afford (from my perspective - what do I really know about anyone else's finances) to buy the software that they steal - all of them are better off than me (I'm essentially unemployed and a student dealing with mortgage payments and two kids - I'm not doing it alone though... ) and yet I've been asked on a couple of occasions to provide my legitimately purchased registration details so that they can use some software that I use and they like for free. Nice. The really odd thing is that usually they're lookng for the serial for a $30-$80 program, not PaintShop Pro, not Xara Xtreme Pro, not PowerGrep - you get the picture (they run hacks and cracks of PhotoShop, Office, and CorelDraw - i.e. the packages that require activation). For some reason, I can't convince many of them that they are stealing. Why steal Office, for example? OpenOffice is more powerful than most people's requirements - I know PhD candidates using it to collect and analyse genetic and morphological data and to write it all up.

Unfortuantely, software occupies twin spaces right now - it's SEXY and people buy into marketing hype (want to edit your three year old's birthday party snaps? Nothing other than PhotoShop will do) and it's become part of the range of things that people use for self-validation (I have and use PhotoShop, woo hoo. You use PhotoFiltre, sniff). So that it's becoming something that people fewel they need to have in order to keep up with the Jones'...

app - you're right, too. What is a reasonable price? It's like the housing market. Five years ago, I could have bought both halves of a nice, brand new duplex for under $200,000 Cdn. but didn't want to live in a duplex (or be a resident landlord, either). Three years ago, I thought that $179,900 was too much for a nice, solid 1950's post and beam home on a hill overlooking the harbour and the mountains in the background and waited for prices to drop. Last year I paid $211,000 (priced $10,000 below assessed value - owner was military and being posted) for half of an 8 year old duplex! New duplexes run $240,000 and up (for half of the dupex!) and that house I looked at and and passed on in 2004 is back on the market with fresh paint and a new deck for $550,000! Now when I'm looking at real estate in the paper I think "Oh, wow, a single family home for $350,000. What a bargain! Can I come up with the financing?" (the answer to that question is NO - my parents gave my wife and I the mortgage on our place...). My point is that over a five year period my perceptions of what is reasonable to pay for a home have changed DRASTICALLY. Software is the same. There was a time when I dithered about paying $20 for downloadable shareware. Today, anything under $50 seems fair and anything between $50 and $150 can seem reasonable, depending on the software's function...

app - I share your aversion to money. Actually, my real aversion is to the increasing, and alarming, utilization of credit to be able to "have it all and have it now" instead of building toward goals. Part of the problem with this is that I know so many people that have, literally, 20+ credit cards (and growing) and just keep bouncing credit from one card to the other to avoid paying for things. I don't want to live in a duplex but I do for now. I'm barely employed and my wife is a contractor for the school district. We live where we do because if we both lost our jobs tomorrow, we could still make our mortgage and car payments if I went back to my first real job - flipping burgers at McDonalds. We also bought something big enough to accomodate our family and that is comfortable, so if we can't "move up" we're fine right where we are. Don't even get me started about my brother-in-law...

Sorry, folks, long rambling post...

PS LOVE the movie Network. Coincidentally, it was on cable this weekend!

[zridling]

This just in — the Adobe Creative Suite 3 Design Premium crack is up on Usenet right now for those not wanting to pay that $1800 tab. Ah the joys of Schadenfreude!

[Carol Haynes]

So right, .... gas, $3/gallon ....

-zridling (April 17, 2007, 10:11 AM)

And ...

Try living in the UK  !! Currently petrol/gas/diesel is around 90p per LITRE here ... which equates to $6.83 a US gallon !!!

[app103]

Every time I see & hear someone complain about the price of gasoline, I seem to take a mental trip back in time to when I was about 10 years old and in the car with my dad when he said:

$0.56 a gallon??!! I am not paying that!!! Are they crazy??!!

[MrCrispy]

For the really big companies like Adobe, Microsoft, AutoCad etc the main software revenues come from business and corporate users. Microsoft will continue to sell millions of licenses of Exchange+Office to companies, and their OS to OEM's. Same goes for graphics professionals using Adobe - in most cases the cost is paid by their employer. So for these companies, complaints by home users are quite meaningless as we can't vote with our wallets.

Then there are vendors who mostly sell their products thru sites like download.com or the hundreds of shareware sites. People usually get there by doing a search and buy what they see, not everyone can or wants to do research. These vendors usually stick with a standard licensing scheme.

The smaller, independent developers are the ones really affected. They usually invest a lot more time and effort and produce high quality software, which is not so popular except thru word of mouth thru forums. Piracy is a very real concern for these guys.

[Hirudin]

This reminds me of a joke: Why do dogs lick their crotch?

Spoiler

Because they can.

I know if I was on the other side of the fence, I'd be doing exactly as what some of these companies are doing. Jacking my prices as high as I thought could get away with, then I'd bump them up a little more. Companies with unique, popular products have always done this (already mentioned in this thread: petrolium products, housing, mac-and-chee') just look at the art market, skyrocketing event ticket prices, high end computer hardware, sports cars, etc., etc., etc.! It's no wonder software is catching up.

Lets face it, most pirated software is perfectly safe in terms of viruses/malware. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that a serial number aquired from the internet is going to somehow expose me to viruses.
Also, I think we can all agree that there's very little chance of getting caught using pirated software. Hell, it's probably fairly rare for someone selling or distributing pirated software to get caught, much less the end user.
So, the only real benifits people get from legitimately buying software is what I'm calling 'the squishy feeling' and possibly easier access to updates.

Also, no matter how good your product is, nobody will use it if they don't know about it. If you aren't making any money on your stuff, it's going to be very hard to justify spending money to market it. It's a giant catch 22, and it's unavoidable. Word of mouth, and nerd sites (like this one*) are only so effective. KeyPass is an excellent program, but not many people have heard of it, and even less use it, even though almost everyone with a computer could probably benifit from it. I suppose donations could make up for the lack of actual sales. But, again; the squishy feeling is the only incentive to donate in most cases, and to may people, it isn't enough to actually take out their credit card.

1. Unique stuff is expensive

2. "The Squishy Feeling" is only worth so much money.

3. Catch 22 (no revenue, no marketing, not many new customers)

*I say this in the most loving way possible

Sorry, I can't tell if I'm just rambling or making valid points. I guess in summation the best (but I'd say, least likely to become widespread) solution to high software prices is close to what zridling said in the first post: Support the people who make good software and treat their users right. OR we can get off our high horse and pirate more (probably the second least likely to become widespread). OR we can just grin and bear it, bend over and take it, get screwed by the system, etc. (pretty much already happening).

I think if donations garnered more than the squishy feeling (#2) software developers could get a lot more money to beat the giant catch 22 (#3).
- CCleaner has a good idea: donate $20 or more and get the new versions before everyone else. I think this could be expanded. First quantify "sooner". Maybe keep the software "supporter only" for a month. Or, have different tiers: get the software 4 weeks early for $15, 3 weeks for $12, 2 weeks for $8, or a week for $5. (Obviously different price structures could be set up).
- This site use-to have a good idea (I'm not sure if it's still the case): donate anything and get discounts on software. Although I think I'd impose a minimum maybe it's good that there wasn't. I think my first donation was under a dollar...
- I think the prospect of unlimited lifetime updates is worth some money, even for freeware software. People know that good things don't always last. Take a program like Xnview. It's free now, but I suppose I might be enticed to donate $10 or so NOW in exchange for free updates in the future, should it become payware.

[f0dder]

Yup, agree with pro3carp3 and Curt but I *think* that we're straying into the philosophical realm here in that I don't think that people who use cracks, hacks and serialz are necessarily career criminals but rather people who... ah fuck it. They're thieves and there is no justification for it.

-Darwin

There's plenty of people that actually do have legitimately purchased software but still use the cracked version since it's goddamn more convenient - dongles, phone-home, cd protections, you name it. I certainly know I do, when a game doesn't need data from the frigging DVD, I'm not going to bother inserting it. And in my younger days when I went to LAN parties, why should I bring along my original game CDs/DVDs and risk them getting stolen/broken/whatever?

Nowadays it makes even more sense, when protections like StarForce can mean major slowdowns, and installs crappy drivers on your system, and when you have to be really careful if you reinstall windows - not only is there the risk of getting in windows activation trouble, but what about all the other activation-requiring applications? Or the "hardware locked" licenses? Ooop, burnt motherboard, too bad, can't use the app, YOU EVIL PIRATE. Copy protections have taken overhand.

And windows licensing is sucky as well. You can't imagine the hoops you have to jump through to get a volume license key for a small company - I ended giving up. So instead of being able to use one slipstreamed CD with unattended setup, I have to carry a list of 10+ cdkeys when I need to do reinstalls.

I don't mind paying for stuff, but I do mind paying overprice and getting crippled software that treats me like I was a thief.

Carol Haynes: anything under £1/litre is cheap in .dk at the moment.

[Carol Haynes]

Yup, agree with pro3carp3 and Curt but I *think* that we're straying into the philosophical realm here in that I don't think that people who use cracks, hacks and serialz are necessarily career criminals but rather people who... ah fuck it. They're thieves and there is no justification for it.

-Darwin

There's plenty of people that actually do have legitimately purchased software but still use the cracked version since it's goddamn more convenient - dongles, phone-home, cd protections, you name it. I certainly know I do, when a game doesn't need data from the frigging DVD, I'm not going to bother inserting it. And in my younger days when I went to LAN parties, why should I bring along my original game CDs/DVDs and risk them getting stolen/broken/whatever?

-f0dder (April 17, 2007, 05:40 PM)

A criterion I use when purchasing software that is copy protected is 'can I use it if the company goes bust / activation screws up in some way?'.  Seems reasonable to me (even if it does contravene EULAs) if I have paid for the software.
I don't use the software in a cracked state UNLESS I have insurmountable problems with the vendor - then I have no qualms about using MY expensive product.

Carol Haynes: anything under £1/litre is cheap in .dk at the moment.

I realise that other EU states also have a bad time of petrol prices but I didn't realise Denmark had got that bad!

Always makes me laugh when I hear Americans whinge on about expensive gas - simple solution get rid of the 6 litre V8 4x4 SUV and buy a 50cc motorbike  - or even better a pushbike ... that'll get you fit too!

[Darwin]

I remember Americans whinging when gas hit 50 cents a litre... Of course, Canadians were whinging about gas being 80 cents Cdn. a litre at the time. It was at $1.16 where I am the last time I gassed up. Thank goodness I don't need to run high octane anymore!

[JeffK]

A very intersting discussion.

When I first started using personal computers > 20 years ago, it was accepted practice among my peers to use pirated software, we shared several shoeboxes full.

Say 8-10 years ago I probably had half a dozen cracked pieces of software on my machine.

Now I can't bring to mind any.

I ask myself what changed.  One thing is I can afford it.  In the last year I have paid for several pieces of software, some of which I now admit I didn't really need.

The next thing is - I feel guilty about not paying.  I recently saw that I had a copy of Real Draw Pro on my computer.  Knowing that I had not put it there I asked my daughter, who has recently left home, whether she had.  She said she got it from a friend "a fair while ago".  It must have been cracked.  Rather than simply delete it, my guilty conscience took over and I bought a licence.

Having said that I can't remember buying anything over $US100 and for that I have some really neat software including Novamind and ConceptDraw mindmapping, Ultrarecall, Directory Opus and Xara Xtreme.  (Sorry I forgot MS Office Professional 2007 which I got as a $27 upgrade after buying MS Office Professional 2003 for $AU228 which is the lowest legitimate price I have ever seen it.)

As for Photoshop I guess I don't need it.  And I admit that I wouldn't pay the asking price for it.  I also as a matter of principle don't buy magazines with trial versions of it and tutorials for it because I know I won't be buying the full product.

So I think software is an expensive personal interest and am very appreciative of all the sources of cheap/free software.

Jeff

[zridling]

[Carol]: Always makes me laugh when I hear Americans whinge on about expensive gas - simple solution get rid of the 6 litre V8 4x4 SUV and buy a 50cc motorbike   - or even better a pushbike ... that'll get you fit too!
________________________________________________
— Most Americans don't live in big cities, and most of us commute long distances/times to work.
— After WWII, we built all our cities, nay suburbs, for driving "to," not for living "in." (Yes, yes, it's true idiocracy. You should live here!)
— Driving small vehicles and bikes on interstates is illegal.
— Lots of people ditched those 4-wheel drive SUVs (seems I see only the handicapped hopping in and out of them anymore).
— Most self-employed people here buy trucks in order to run their small business.
— Riding a bike 25 miles to work in the mornings on inner-belt freeways is not an option.
— Unlike civilized countries, we never invested in public transportation beyond New York City. And trains, what are those?
— Median US income is around $40k, but the USD is weak, we're taxed to death, and working people receive no benefit whatsoever for their taxes.
— Our jobs suck and pay minimum wage. Meanwhile, we compete daily with illegal aliens from Mexico, whom companies like Wal-Mart hire in droves.
— Finally, our cars suck. While the rest of the world drives Minis and BMWs, those vehicles are prohibitively priced (as is their insurance) here.

Due to the wife's career, I work in Missouri, but actually live in Chicago, a 7.5-hour drive. No train service. I'll go back and forth four times in the next 11 days. Otherwise, I'm the greeter at Wal-Mart. Every dollar counts, because once it's in my pocket, money finds a hole. So I wish it were as simple as you say!  ;-)

[zridling]

Jeff, I think the reason I'll never own Photoshop is that, no matter how fast your system is, Photoshop is guaranteed to bring it to a crawl!

[JeffK]

My dream is to visit that rotten country of yours.  I would like to go from one coast to the other by road or short rail trips, with emaphasis on the historical sites in the East and Indian country and the spacious rural places.  And maybe one or two big cities like NY and LA.  My wife and I have had our progress slowed as she is battling cancer but before that her dream was Western Canada and Alaska and mine was UK.  But the more I read the more I think I would love to visit the US.

So you have to keep the oil prices down until I get there (and the US/AU currency exchange rate too).

I might buy some cheap software while I am there.

[Renegade]

Very interesting conversation. I wish I had more time... Anyways...

-- WARNING -- BAD WORD FILTER TEST TO FOLLOW --

For the capitalist "let's push it up as much as possible"... Fuck that. That's just being greedy. I sell software and I could push my prices up if I wanted to and people would still buy it. I am not a greedy bastard. There's no reason to screw people out of money. If the price is fair, then it's fair, but the whole "let's fuck people for as much as we can" thing pisses me off. "Market forces?" Bah! "Market pressures?" Bah!

I think that to some degree it is correct, but that doesn't excuse pure greed.

I once gave a guy a partial refund as he was hard up for cash but wanted my software. Is that bad? Hell no! He loves my software and I've treated him very well. He'll tell people. You can't buy "decency".

There are some segments in software that make me want to puke. Honesty and decency are lost in business all too often. It's unfortunate that the business thing has to ruin it for consumers.

Got to get going... Would love to participate more here - as usual...

[zridling]

JeffK, you won't be able to travel by rail very much, as our passenger trains here are almost a thing of the past. Start in Atlantic Canada and head west and south down the coast. My best advice would be to travel the 'Blue Highways;' that is, the "state" roads rather than the interstate system. You'll see more, eat better, enjoy yourself. Hit New York City for sure; drive through the Blue Ridge Mountains, but skip Washington DC (it's really a bore, and everything closes early); Route 66 starts in Chicago (where you can see a Cub baseball game!) and runs through the town where I work in the Missouri (you'll want to eat BarBQ in Missouri!) Ozarks, and head north from Kansas City to the Badlands in South Dakota. From there, you can go north across the Border and head across the Canadian Rockies on the way toward Vancouver. You won't go wrong if you just get off the highways — that's where the real America is found.

________________________________________________
Renegade, my question is simply: if this version of Photoshop goes up 33%, what will the next bring? As for Windows, how many more EULA restrictions can they conceive? It's like the RIAA — if you think everyone is ripping you off, then just wait, they're going to start just out of spite.

[Carol Haynes]

[Carol]: Always makes me laugh when I hear Americans whinge on about expensive gas - simple solution get rid of the 6 litre V8 4x4 SUV and buy a 50cc motorbike   - or even better a pushbike ... that'll get you fit too!
________________________________________________
— Most Americans don't live in big cities, and most of us commute long distances/times to work.

-zridling (April 18, 2007, 01:20 AM)

That's true of most people world wide - it is only countries like the UK that have the majority living in cities and that's partly a legacy of the industrial revolution and partly because there is almost no land left and what is left can't be built on.

— After WWII, we built all our cities, nay suburbs, for driving "to," not for living "in." (Yes, yes, it's true idiocracy. You should live here!)

LOL - no arguments here - but it is also getting a bit that way in the UK. People seem unable to take the kids 100 yeards to school without jumping into a 4x4

— Driving small vehicles and bikes on interstates is illegal.

Is here too - but I would say the average car in the UK is probably more fuel efficient and smaller than what you see on US roads - and most of that is down to fuel costs and differential taxing.

— Lots of people ditched those 4-wheel drive SUVs (seems I see only the handicapped hopping in and out of them anymore).

Surprised by that comment - I thought SUVs and all-terrain were the biggest growth area in the US for vehicle manufacturers! Are they all sitting on the forecourts?

— Most self-employed people here buy trucks in order to run their small business.

Don't know so much about the US but Canada has a huge number of trucks - and you never, ever see anything in the back of them. They seem to be a choice of transport for the odd hunting trip when you need to get that moose home. They certainly aren't fuel efficient and cheap to run. If people want to transport stuff for work the old Ford Escort vans would be a hell of a lot cheaper to run - but not nearly as cool!

— Riding a bike 25 miles to work in the mornings on inner-belt freeways is not an option.

Sadly no longer here either - in the past I travelled 25 miles to work - I used a pushbike at both ends (4 or 5 miles) and a train in the middle. Sadly I would probably not be able to do the 4 or 5 miles now without a near death experience and the trains don't let you take bikes any more. Mind you most tyrains in the UK aren't designed for passengers given that it is cinsiderably cheaper to drive a car with one person than take a train - even factoring in road pricing and ridiculous parking charges!

— Unlike civilized countries, we never invested in public transportation beyond New York City. And trains, what are those?

We invented the trains and laid almost all of the track in the 19th century - now we probably have the worst trains in Europe (and probably the world). Unreliable, expensive, dirty and downright annoying. And the UK masterminded public transport but apart from the London tube system (which everyone complains about but is still pretty good IMHO) there is no proper public transport in the UK.

— Median US income is around $40k, but the USD is weak, we're taxed to death, and working people receive no benefit whatsoever for their taxes.

I would guess (I don't have any evidence) that your median salary is about the same as ours but our cost of living is a lot higher and our taxes are a lot higher. At the moment the UK does get benefits for the taxes but they are getting a lot meaner and institutions like the health service are on their last legs - and the Tories would really like the super US approach to health (i.e. if your poor you can f**k off and die 'cos you didn't vote for us anyway).

— Our jobs suck and pay minimum wage. Meanwhile, we compete daily with illegal aliens from Mexico, whom companies like Wal-Mart hire in droves.

Join the club most 'British' jobs are outsourced to India these days (try calling British Telecom with a phone fault and find out what the weather is like in Mumbay). We don't actually have a manufacturing industry any more - almost everything is imported from cheap labour economies. What jobs we do have are usually farmed out the Polish these days.!

— Finally, our cars suck. While the rest of the world drives Minis and BMWs, those vehicles are prohibitively priced (as is their insurance) here.

No argument there - but you have a free economy (that was a joke by the way) - people should talk with their money and change things.

Due to the wife's career, I work in Missouri, but actually live in Chicago, a 7.5-hour drive. No train service. I'll go back and forth four times in the next 11 days. Otherwise, I'm the greeter at Wal-Mart. Every dollar counts, because once it's in my pocket, money finds a hole. So I wish it were as simple as you say!  ;-)

You have my sympathy - that must be miserable. I have commuted pretty much whenever I have worked - last time 4 hours a day of sitting in queues. However,I think the appalling state of the US economy is finally coming home to roost like reality has in the rest of the world. Welcome to the club!

End of ranting - I think if we continue this we should take it to PM unless other people want to wade in and put the world to rights