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I'm thinking of going primitive, with discursion into zettelkasten

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Dormouse:
I'm very happy with logseq so far.
-urlwolf (May 10, 2022, 01:30 PM)
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That's great. Given the people who like it, I'm sure it's good and is, as you said, developing rapidly. Had more developers than Obsidian even before raising the $4m. The basic structure is very Roam-like. I've simply never go on with it well enough so far, but it's the one Obsidian alternative I check out regularly. Actually, I do keep an eye on Zettlr; I'm not in its core user group (which I see as post-grads and academics) but seems to me to be the most writer biased of the PKM apps.

Plus neovide, a nvim frontend, that does something really interesting with the cursor (check this: https://youtu.be/Vd5AACp6GG0?t=112) because it has better typing latency.
-urlwolf (May 10, 2022, 01:30 PM)
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I do see what you mean. Looks very neat. Of course, I don't actually use emacs, vim, neovim or alternatives and use the mouse by preference when I can. And have never typed fast enough to have an issue with latency; even if I did hit an issue, I'd probably be sitting  back thinking while it untangled itself. I'm a fast typist so I assume that I simply spend too much time thinking and not typing.

superboyac:
Very interesting observations and links everyone!!

update on my end.  All this zettel and markdown efforts has led me ultimately to a place where I use it specifically to make static generated sites out of it with just my curated set of notes and ideas.  It's the best way to make a good looking website, so easy.  And you just open up obsidian, make changes, and website is instantly updated. 

urlwolf:
Logseg publish exist too, and it's free. I haven't tried it.
The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?

Who is measuring this?

superboyac:
Logseg publish exist too, and it's free. I haven't tried it.
The question for me is: what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
How much effort is it to keep notes?

Who is measuring this?
-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)
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40 was questioning this a few pages back, loll.  RE the productivity.
Being beneficial?  You can look at it in different ways.  I have been notetaking rather heavily since the late 90s.  I can tell you a lot of it is just dealing with my own anxiety/stresses and it is therapeutic in that sense.  I argue with myself in my writings until I come to a conclusion.  Reading it later is not the greatest thing, it is mostly rambling.

But then I have curated notes, more along the lines of Luhman and zettel.  And those definitely are productive, as they lead to tangible results.  Like writing a finished book.  Or using the ideas to put together some other deliverable....a project, a script, etc.  I write all the steps out.

I don't think overall all the notetaking is very productive.  There is an element of OCD going on here.  A lot of paralysis by analysis.  So I am aware of that, and am always trying to be more reasonable with my approach so I'm not just doing OCD things.


Overall, I find great value to the practice of notetaking.  But only if it leads to a finished result, or towards a stated goal that can be accomplished in the short term.  Other than that, I feel like I'm in OCD territory.

Dormouse:
what do I need to see to believe that taking notes (and elaborate on them) is beneficial?
We have one outlier, Luhman, and ... well the entirety 'productivity' web (is this a hipster thing?) who are into it. But are they productive?
-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)
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In the main, I don't believe that the people doing this are productive, apart from the mass production of notes.
Most appear to be students; probably the most driven and usually highly performing students anyway. Many appear to have the belief that it will help them learn (though that's not what Luhmann was about); and treat Ahrens' Smart Notes book as their bible even though it conflates his own ideas (developed largely around student note-taking) with those of Luhmann.

Luhmann lived an exraordinarily focused and regular life and was extremely disciplined. His system was perfected to optimise his productivity, and building on the usual reading and writing work typical of academics. He turned it into a form of painting-by-numbers (so rapid writing at the end). It was a form of academic mass production where the usual academic clay was sorted and then formed into bricks, with an index so that he could quickly find the bricks he wanted whatever he decided he wanted to build in the future.
It's a system I can see working very productively for any academic with his level of discipline (and ability to spot the best clay and craft good bricks).
But not so much for students, and not at all for anyone who doesn't actually have an intention to produce anything at the end of it.

Personally, I've never had that regularity, nor that style of discipline. Neverhteless, I can craft the bricks and the system makes it easy to drop and pick up as desired, with no loss of previously done work. So that's great.

How much effort is it to keep notes?
-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)
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I don't know. People do appear to be producing prodigious quantities of them.
For me, I don't make a fraction of the notes that most seem to make (though I do have a very good memory, and my own workflow has always been heavily based on that). I have only ever made notes as an essential component of doing something, and even then usually only a fraction of what most seem to believe is required. Even when I was a student, I might make 4 lines of notes, and noticed others with 4 pages or even more; I never could understand what they thought they were going to do with them.

Who is measuring this?
-urlwolf (May 11, 2022, 10:16 AM)
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I'd like to believe that everyone doing it will be measuring it for themselves. No way of avoiding bias.
Trying to do matched samples for group work would be fraught with problems, and I don''t think it could be made to work. A longidudinal single-case approach to carefully selected groups might work, but would be expensive to conduct.

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