What A Different World Than What I Grew Up In :(

[Renegade]

Reading through the news, I've constantly come across articles about "Amanda Todd". I finally did a search and saw this:

CAUTION: This is pretty disturbing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyHX7wMJBY0

I've heard about cyber-bulling before, but really never looked into it.

The poor girl took her life over it.

I really don't know what else to say. It should be pretty obvious.

Some members of Anonymous have claimed to identify the "stalker":

From Anonymous

Anonymous' Identiy Configuration

Amanda Todd's Punisher

Extorted amanda todd for pictures. This is the pedophile that social engineered Amanda Todd into supplying him nude pictures.

Identity: Kody Maxson
Online Username: kody1206
Location:Sapper St, New westminster,BC
Birthdate 1980, age 30
Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYk19SD4FCs

We Are Anonymous.
We Are Legion.
We Do Not Forgive.
We Do Not Forget.
Kody Maxson.
Expect us!

Perhaps what's perhaps a sadder state is that when you search for "Amanada Todd" in YouTube, then click a link, the "related results" on the left are enough to make you vomit.

It's utterly disgusting how some people use these wonderful technological tools. I'm simply speechless.

[mouser]

One of the things you regret as an adult is that you didn't stand up enough for those who were picked on at school, didn't extend your hand enough to the outcasts.

For those of you on this forum who are still young and in school.  If you see someone being picked on, stand up for them, show them a friendly face and reach out your hand.  You'd be surprised at how much it can mean to someone to have someone reach out to them and extend a friendly hand.

[Renegade]

One of the things you regret as an adult is that you didn't stand up enough for those who were picked on at school, didn't extend your hand enough to the outcasts.

For those of you on this forum who are still young and in school.  If you see someone being picked on, stand up for them, show them a friendly face and reach out your hand.  You'd be surprised at how much it can mean to someone to have someone reach out to them and extend a friendly hand.

+1

[app103]

Cyber-bulling is some really messed up stuff, and stopping it is something we all have to try to do when we see it happening, which is what I am about to do right now...

Posting the personal info of a bully only encourages more bullying. What do you think others will do with that info? No matter how wrong the guy was, bullying him for it is just as wrong, and two wrongs never make a right.

[40hz]

osting the personal info of a bully only encourages more bullying.

Strongly disagree based on my experience.

Bullying flourishes in the shadows. I don't think it's ever wise to allow them to operate anonymously or unchallenged. Exposing them for what they are, and exposing what they do to as many people as possible, is the first step in dealing with the problem - even if it serves no other function than forcing those in a position of authority to take action. Because believe me, schools would rather not deal with the issue at all from what I've seen. And anything they can do to "not see" the problem has been their SOP so far - even with all the publicity and hysteria being generated by this most recent cause célèbre.

Sometimes the only way to deal with an intermittent problem is to watch it (or push it) until it finally reveals itself. Once the problem is clearly identified, you can then work on finding a more permanent fix.

Exposing a bully does exactly that.

and two wrongs never make a right.

Nope. But three lefts do!

[tomos]

Very moving video...

I'm happy to hear that the relevant authorities know about him. I've heard reported that there's someone of the same name currently up on [unrelated] sex offence charges in Surrey, BC - possibly the same person*.

I can understand why anyone would repost his details, but FWIW I (also) dont think it's particularly helpful at this stage.

* from the video on this page (on the right of the video image scroll to & click: "Online community tries to track...")
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Amanda+Todd+death+speaks+about+daughter+bullying+with+video/7384521/story.html

[app103]

Exposing a bully does exactly that.

If all it were was exposing them, I'd agree with you. If all he got from the internet was dirty looks wherever he went, that would be fine. If something good came from it, like an arrest and conviction, that would be an acceptable resolution.

But you know it won't stop there. This guy will receive death threats, people showing up at his home, his job, etc. And it will affect not only him. The people he lives with...maybe family, children...will also become the victims of the retaliatory bullies from the internet. And if they live in a multi-family home, other people that live there, who have nothing to do with what happened, will also become victims, when something like a brick intended for the bully's window misses and hits theirs.

He was one bully, bullying one girl. And yes, it ended badly, but he will be not just bullied, but terrorized by the internet, lots and lots of people behaving badly, thinking that the wrongs they commit will make it right.

Exposing him says bullying is wrong. Encouraging people to bully him by giving out his address is saying bullying is ok. It says that vigilante justice is a good thing. You make him the victim of an internet lynch mob who will show up with the equivalent of torches and pitchforks. And I can't support that.

and two wrongs never make a right.

Nope. But three lefts do!

I had a feeling someone was going to say that. 

[Stoic Joker]

Bullying flourishes in the shadows. I don't think it's ever wise to allow them to operate anonymously or unchallenged. Exposing them for what they are, and exposing what they do to as many people as possible, is the first step in dealing with the problem - even if it serves no other function than forcing those in a position of authority to take action.

That would be in my experience as well ... except the authorities were never really that useful/helpful

Because believe me, schools would rather not deal with the issue at all from what I've seen. And anything they can do to "not see" the problem has been their SOP so far

Never having been popular in school I can well confirm this phenomenon at close range. Some people are taught to (be leaders) defend their position, and others are taught to (be drones) not make waves ... Guess which group is most likely to wear the target?

I was taught to not make waves ... And spent a good deal of "quality" time wearing my as assigned target.

Once I managed to grasp on my own that the occasional wavy is necessary ...(and began defending my position)... The bullies went elseware to fine easier targets.

Sometimes the only way to deal with an intermittent problem is to watch it (or push it) until it finally reveals itself. Once the problem is clearly identified, you can then work on finding a more permanent fix.

Exposing a bully does exactly that.

It allows others to learn by (negative) example..

[wraith808]

Exposing a bully does exactly that.

There are constructive means to do so, and unconstructive means to do so.  The internet is neither forgiving, nor discriminate, nor united.  Justice is what is deserved in these situations- but an exact level applied, not going around 'nuking ants'.  Exposing these things on the internet at large is the equivalent of 'using a nuke on an ant' in my opinion.  Nothing good comes of it, and nothing is learned.  It's a lot like the death penalty- it's supposed to be preventative, but instead, it's purely punitive.  People *don't* think about these things before they do them because (a) they think they're smarter, or a special case, or (b) something else is wrong with the person.  So why put them in the public stockade and cut their head off other than for a spectacle?  The information and evidence needs to be put into the right hands to be taken care of systematically, and legally.  Vigilantism only propagates the problem to a different stage, IMO.

It allows others to learn by (negative) example..

Maybe that's the purpose, but it does pretty bad job.

[Stoic Joker]

Okay... So can anyone cite an actual example of an outed cyber bully that really was tortured to death in the (digital) town square??

Seriously. Is the true crowd reaction actual, or assumed? ...The masses easily get bored (and move on) in a week I'd assert.

[wraith808]

Okay... So can anyone cite an actual example of an outed cyber bully that really was tortured to death in the (digital) town square??

Seriously. Is the true crowd reaction actual, or assumed? ...The masses easily get bored (and move on) in a week I'd assert.

I forget the guy's name now... but the guy about the controllers.  And that was considered a 'win'.  But it was a kangaroo court of the masses.  The extent... well, he did bring it on himself.  But... really?

And on the other side, can anyone quote to me an example where the said example made works?

[app103]

Okay... So can anyone cite an actual example of an outed cyber bully that really was tortured to death in the (digital) town square??

Seriously. Is the true crowd reaction actual, or assumed? ...The masses easily get bored (and move on) in a week I'd assert.

Here ya go...a recent one...

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/bus-bullies-harassed-wake-viral-video-16634279
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyHKtJRYkjI

The kids received death threats, police had to respond to a hostage situation that turned out to be a hoax, over 1000 threatening text messages sent to one of the kids, in a single night. This wasn't limited to threats against the bullies; their parents, brothers, and sisters were also threatened.

[40hz]

and two wrongs never make a right.

Nope. But three lefts do!

I had a feeling someone was going to say that.  

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

I figured injecting a little lightheartedness right about then would be beneficial.

[40hz]

If something good came from it, like an arrest and conviction, that would be an acceptable resolution.

I think you're seeing "the street" respond because there very likely won't be any resolution from the authorities on this one unless there's an ambitious DA somewhere in the loop.

We need to consider that an arrest or conviction will never occur because there really isn't any criminal law that directly applies to what happened. Maybe a prosecutor could make a case under some legal theory or another to extrapolate from an existing law. But that would be a fairly big legal stretch. And it would require a pretty broadminded judge who didn't have a problem "legislating from the bench" as they say. Not that it would matter since convictions of that sort almost always get overturned or reduced on appeal.

AFAIK, there is no law that says it's a crime to do or say something which results in another person committing suicide. Especially since suicide is generally viewed as a form of mental illness anyway. The family could sue for damages perhaps. But the simple truth is, unless you personally caused virtually all of the pain, and the person ended up killing themselves as a result, there's no direct cause and effect sufficient to be prosecuted. Saying something that exposed somebody to contempt or ridicule might have been considered slanderous. But that's a tort, not a criminal offense.

So in the absence of a specific law or an official action there's always the American tradition of taking the law into your own hands to address a grievance and/or right a wrong. I think this is just one more manifestation of it. Not to say I agree that bringing "Judge Lynch" in on this is the way to handle it. But I do think this is one of those situations where people have reached the point where they're saying "enough is enough." So some of the the more extreme examples of public reaction can hardly be considered surprising in this instance.

[tomos]

... people have reached the point where they're saying "enough is enough"

this is a good thing, quite apart from what happens to the people involved in bullying this girl. It also sends a message to people who are being bullied, that they dont have to stand for it either.

[wraith808]

AFAIK, there is no law that says it's a crime to do or say something which results in another person committing suicide.

Actually, someone has been convicted of the same, though I'm not sure what laws they were tried under... hmm...

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/801332-pair-guilty-over-girls-death-leap

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Lori_Drew

Neither of those were what I was looking for... but apparently felony harassment is a real charge that can be levied.

[40hz]

^Not familiar with the UK case. But the Lori Drew case ended in the court overturning the conviction.

Some laws have been added to the books since then so that case might be handled differently today if it came up today. But even so, it's different in that the harassment was primarily conducted by Lori Drew. Which is different than posting some things on the web and then see other people go into "Vanna White mode" on the victim.

I'll have to do some digging. I'm not sure you can be held accountable for everything that follows from something you said except under very extraordinary circumstances. Even advocates of vigilante action are seldom charged in cases where somebody took them at their word and actually went out and killed somebody. Some prosecutors have tried, albeit unsuccessfully so far. At least with the cases I'm familiar with.

There does seems to be a feeling that blanket abridgment of free speech (just because somebody might "do something" because of it) doesn't seem to fly with the pubic or the courts. (Something I agree with BTW. I much prefer a surgical strike over carpet bombing when it comes to drafting criminal law.)

Oh well, gonna have to beat up on Google later when I have the time to go down the rabbit hole....

[app103]

While I am not an expert in law, and especially not Canadian law, I do believe that Canada has laws against the possession and/or distribution of child pornography.

Considering the nature of the photos that were in his possession and the age of the victim, they could probably nail him for possession, at the very least. And his posting it online could probably be considered distribution.

If Canada has anti-stalking laws, him showing up at her home in the middle of the night could constitute stalking, as well as some of his online actions.

I don't know how the laws in Canada define manslaughter, but in both New York and my home state of New Jersey, a bully or cyberbully can be charged with manslaughter if the victim of the bullying takes their own life.

[Tinman57]

  I've stood up for people being bullied when I was in school, and usually wound up getting my ass kicked in the process.  But you'll notice that the majority of the bullies hang out in a gang of bullies, they're too chickenshit to attempt it on their own unless the person is tiny and meek...

[wraith808]

Some laws have been added to the books since then so that case might be handled differently today if it came up today. But even so, it's different in that the harassment was primarily conducted by Lori Drew. Which is different than posting some things on the web and then see other people go into "Vanna White mode" on the victim.

I'll have to do some digging. I'm not sure you can be held accountable for everything that follows from something you said except under very extraordinary circumstances. Even advocates of vigilante action are seldom charged in cases where somebody took them at their word and actually went out and killed somebody. Some prosecutors have tried, albeit unsuccessfully so far. At least with the cases I'm familiar with.

Incitement perhaps?  The same thing as if your words to a person cause an action?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0395_0444_ZS.html

Of course, correlation would have to be proven, which would be problematic at best...

There does seems to be a feeling that blanket abridgment of free speech (just because somebody might "do something" because of it) doesn't seem to fly with the pubic or the courts. (Something I agree with BTW. I much prefer a surgical strike over carpet bombing when it comes to drafting criminal law.)

Well, I think there's a difference between reporting on what someone has done, and a call to act, or the supply of the means to act.  I do agree that abrogation of free speech is something that should be off the table.  But how do you draw the line?  What you say crosses the line, I don't... and vice versa.  It's not clear cut.  And truthfully, I don't trust our legislative branch to decide at this point.  I've become more (not less) cynical as time has gone on.  And in the case of our legislature, sometimes less is best.