Flexible List (data) Management - ListPro and the Alternatives

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

In this thread we were discussing "flat-file" list management of serial #s.
   
Serial Key Storage for Windows
https://www.donation...ex.php?topic=25868.0

TucknDar and I mentioned :

ListPro by Ilium
http://www.iliumsoft.com/listpro

And I realized that the reason I liked it for the purpose is that it is able to function:

*** not with the specialty of a task manager or a planner or project manager ..***

 but simply as a "FLEXIBLE LIST MANAGER" -- which is a type of flexible database function.

ie. It is strong on the database idea of quickly designing your own fields to meet the needs. And heads-up data entry.  I went back and looked at the traditional "ToDos" such as ToDoList of AbstractSpoon and TaskCoach and realized that they would have great difficulties in this type of flexible list management. They are really very different. They are "thinking" in their terms of dates and times and categories ... and have a hard time giving you a tabula rasa ... and building up many different types of lists.

The point is that field design, and placement, and sorting, in ListPro is flexible, powerful and extremely quick.

ListPro can do some minor calendar and reminder and planning and project functions, but if you really look for that, then the other programs are better, as are various PIM and Calendar paradigm programs.

So the question comes, is ListPro the leader of the pack ?  Short of the one alternative .. your own custom design with MySQL or Alpha5 or some some database project.  The database idea is fine if you want to tie tables together, but if you are not doing that, it could be slower and overkill and harder to establish and quick-launch.

So I wondered if some of the other List management software was similarly capable to ListPro.  
 (this is quick, local heads-down data entry, not web entry).

Quick To-Do (Capstralia) mentions flexible printing and
Swift To-Do (Dextronet-sometimes on Bits) came to mind
-------------

MyBase
MyLifeOrganized (these two may be two bulky)

Maybe InfoQube ?

================

Others like:

Priorganizer  
AgendaAtOnce - seem pre-designed too much for Task and PIM rather than for flexible list management.

With most, I tend to doubt that their design is as flexible and quick for dozens of lists.  
The point is you have to be able to end up with many totally different table designs.  
Without going through any hoops.

================

LISTPRO

Folder (multi-level .. by drag-and-drop)
  Lists (the individual designed tables)
    Items - (columns within the table .. with flexible and quick field creation and sorting within the Item.)
      Fields - String, Category, Number, Yes/No, Date. 3-State, Linked (hot link)
               - Notes fields

The category field functions as an auxiliary table where you quickly choose an existing category or create a new one.

===

The design idea is superb.  

You end up tweaking your list (data base) super-quick.  The list can be some type of todo or calender, or your accounts or expenses, or your books or the posts you plan to answer or just about anything.  You get a real confidence that you will design quickly, without headache, and data entry is fast.

It does work very nicely as a "ToDo" list when you design a table for that. (They have templates too.)

*** The one big lack is that the printing is only servicable.  ***

And one important point of lists is to print them out. You can landscape, but you can not quickly say .. print those eight fields.  It breaks the fields off to a second page on overflow.  Since you are able to use the scroll bar on data entry .. wide -- you can end up with long rows.

Flexible printing is a real need. Possibly the workaround is FinePrint or PriPrinter and making sure the 1st page is what you want and deleting the other when it is wide-field. 

================

LISTPRO MAJOR LIMITATION
1) Flexible Printing --> along with
2) Automated Printing - saving a print procedure of various lists.

(1) is the big lack.

LISTPRO MAJOR IMPROVEMENT
Tab structure would help, - giving another dimension to your overall view.

Also, no web forum, no immediate developer response.
Email goes to somebody who sends it to the developers.

================

So, are there any List management softwares that are similarly capable, with good printing ?

DATABASE
Short of database programs (or if you use a database, which one and why ?)

How about InfoQube and others that are unique ?

Your thoughts appreciated.

Steven

[steeladept]

Upon reading this, my first thought is "Why not Excel?" (or other spreadsheet program).  It sounds like you want the 'smartness' of a database, with the flexibility of a spreadsheet, and perhaps, some codability.  That describes Excel exactly.  I sit here complaining at work all the time about people constantly using Excel for a database's job, but it is, in fact, a lightweight, flexible database itself.  Moreover, many PIM's/Task Management/List Management programs can import/export Excel file format; or at least csv, which can then be used for/from Excel.

Since printing is so critical a consideration, consider that Excel prints almost everywhere without issue.  Want just a few fields?  Use the hide row/column function then print.  What about field size?  You can adjust them on the fly.  Multiple pages with column header?  No problem.  Print option to repeat top x rows.  Tabs are in there as well.  In other words, I think this is really what you want, now you just need to learn to use it completely if you don't already know how.

From my experiences, I would say there is only 1 drawback to Excel in your situation.  Price.  It isn't cheap if you have to buy it, though there is the Office 365 option that *MAY* fit your needs and is far cheaper.  It is far less capable, but may work for you.  If you consider a cloud-based solution such as this, however, I suggest starting with something such as Zoho or one of the other offers.  Office 365 includes Excel functionality, but it is the new kid on the block comparatively and may not be as feature rich even compared to the competition.

[Armando]

[Disclaimer: my point of view might be partial : I now work for Pierre from time to time and... I work with InfoQube everyday. I'm trying to be as objective as possible, however.]

IMO, InfoQube would be perfect for what you describe, while not being the same as ListPro. You can use IQ for very very simple lists, and much more complex tasks like project management (with all the associated calculations and graphical representations) and the like. This is exactly why I use IQ : I don't want an application to force me to think in a specific way when I'm managing information. I want my items to be able to be/do anything I want depending on the usage context. I.e. : 1-I create an item as a task, 2-then I want it to also be part of a contact list, 3- I "move" it into a project, 4- then I have it appear also in my calendar with the appropriate fields added to it, etc.

If you search the forum here or on InfoQube forum, you'll get the idea of what it can and can't do. The best is to just download and try the portable version (version "W" is right around the corner)... It's free while in beta.

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

It is fun to work with InfoQube. I think there needs to be a little tutorial about setting up a item quickly in a grid and defining the fields, etc. for heads-down data entry, record by record. To the beginner it could be rather daunting.

===========

As for Excel and its equivalents, I simply have an innate aversion.  I realize that it can fake out a lot of stuff (we use it with information downloaded from the iSeries mini data to do user-defined reports on inventory.  Maybe some day I will play with it for simple list stuff, but it is only over a bunch of resistance .

Shalom,
Steven

[steeladept]

Understood.  I always cringe whenever I hear of people using Excel because more often than not it is the wrong tool for the job.  Still, Microsoft has heard from a lot of people and expanded it to fit those roles regardless of being right or wrong.  Because MS has done it, others emulated it and now it is there in all the clones, regardless of fitness of use.  The one thing I can say about Excel in it's current form though, right or wrong, it is extreamely flexible.

IQ may well fit the job as well.  In fact what I read and hear about it tells me it likely will work fine for this type of project.  I just have no experience with it and no desire to find a need for the solution (usually a bad sign anyway, unless you really want to learn the product for some reason).  I wish you luck on finding what you are looking for.

[Steven Avery]

Hi,

Afaik, Excel generally thinks of one spreadsheet at a time, and then navigating to another.  ListPro keeps your dozens of tables handy at one-click.  So that is a real conceptual difference.  Maybe you could emulate that a bit with an Excel add-on, but it is straining the bucket.

** The ListPro HTML Export I just tried and then looked at the resulting file in Firefox (simply by clicking the file). The results were impressive and that might really help with my printing concern on the more involved "lists" (tables). **

InfoQube is going to have a hard time getting into quick data mode.  
Maybe after some real careful, attentive learning.

I think my main curiousity is whether any other simple-moderate List programs compete with ListPro as flexible database design and quick data entry modules. Who are * close * in that regard yet better in printing.

So far I have not seen any List-ToDo-PIM that really relates to data as flexibly as ListPro.  Only database programs and in the long run InfoQube so far.  And database programs have the similar overhead-environment-cost issues as Excel.  Remember, ListPro starts with an Explorer folder-list function ready to go, like the note programs Keynote, RightNote, TreedbNote.  A big plus.

Shalom,
Steven

[criss]

Hi,

how about these (cheap, portable, easy to use):

GS-BASE http://www.citadel5.com/gs-base.htm
GS-CALC http://www.citadel5.com/gs-calc.htm

I used them for some weeks and was very content.

[Dormouse]

I love listpro and used it a lot when I had a windows mobile. I kept looking for them to release an android version but there's never been any sign of them doing one so I've more or less given up using it. I've never seen anything similar that is just so simple to use but still powerful. I've ended up with mlo just to sync lists since I never liked any of the other alternatives I tried. Also works well as a way of getting my tdl lists onto the phone.

[Armando]

[...]
InfoQube is going to have a hard time getting into quick data mode.  
Maybe after some real careful, attentive learning.
[...]
So far I have not seen any List-ToDo-PIM that really relates to data as flexibly as ListPro.  Only database programs and in the long run InfoQube so far.

-Steven Avery (August 30, 2011, 02:15 AM)

Hi Steven,
what do you mean by quick data mode ?

Fields are created very quickly, and so are items and grids.
What can be long is to create you own complex set up from scratch.

So what's suggested is to start with a sample DataBase (new--> New IQBase with sample data), not a completely blank one. A completely blank one can be frightening, granted. And it's NOT a good idea.

In its current state, IQ can be "complicated" only when you start scripting, play with conditional formatting, conditional calculations, etc. Otherwise its principles are simple :
- you create items with fields
- items are displayed in grids depending on the items characteristics. Grids act mostly like filtering devices : you see the items which correspond to the various filters set in the grid.

That said, it could very well be that listpro is much better for your needs.

[xtabber]

I used ListPro when I had a Treo, but have stopped since I switched to an Android phone.  I still use their eWallet software to keep passwords and a wide variety of other sensitive information. eWallet uses the same database engine and is extremely flexible in that regard. It has limited auto-login capabilities, which is fine by me, but may be a no-go for others.

Unfortunately, while Ilium has good support for the iPhone, they don't seem to have much interest in Android.  They do provide a free eWallet viewer for Android, which is what has allowed me to keep using that program, but nothing for ListPro.

[Steven Avery]

Hi,

Ok, the sample mode helps.  An interesting way of working with fields globally, and checking off the ones that are being used in that grid (table). And then pulling them together with a sort toggle on top.  First time I've seen that type of global field idea in action.  

So for really unique fields in individual tables I can see that you might want to use field names like -
SNNUM - (serial #)
SNEXP  - (exp date)
etc.  
however if you have a Software company database you may be able to do a type of linking ?
SONUM -

Does InfoQube have any such relational views built in, where you are pulling from two grids ?
ie. Keyed relational lookups ?

Do you use the same field in multiple grids for inheritance?  But they really are simply two distinct fields with the same attribute.  

GRID1-NAME  
GRID2-NAME  

The idea being to have less field level definitions.
I understand that is the x-normal form idea these days .

Anyway I am ready to add a few tables.  

In the long run I can definitely see this as a part of a 3-tier approach if you are a data-person.

LISTPRO - Simple and Go (for PC, I use a clamshell phone and have no interest in IBerryDroidPads.
INFOQUBE - Dynamic Everything Centerpiece
(Programming Language) - the full-blown enchilada

By programming language I mean Alpha5, WinDev, Magic, NaviCat,etc. on MYSQL, etc.

Can we create any SQL databases in INFOQUBE for multi-access (access within INFOQUBE but also from external programs ?)

Anyway, the goal is that InfoQube is your central normative repository. The other two ideas are the extremes for special cases.  

Is that sort of clear ?

** Thanks for the Sample Suggestion. **

 I can see that many folks would simply build up or down from the Sample for their main PIM-ish Qube. Right ? I am tempted to go that route.  And then start fresh with a specialty project that really is unrelated later on its own Qube.

Steven

[Armando]

>however if you have a Software company database you may be able to do a type of linking ?

Yes. For instance, there's a a sample "Mantis" database pulling IQ Mantis bug info from the web and synchronizing with it.

I'm sure there are other use cases. Pierre would have to stop by and explain.

>Does InfoQube have any such relational views built in, where you are pulling from two grids ?

Yes. For instance you can see info from some other grid in a field, as a drop down menu
I realize there's no example in the sample. I'll have to suggest Pierre to add one.

But If you look at the "FileFullName" in the field properties dialog, go the "option" section : you'll see that this field is getting its data from another field using an SQL query.

Another section where you can place SQL queries is in the "Editor" section of the Field properties dialog.
Example: in my DB, I have a field called "Responsible". In the "Editor" section, "Pop up list" text box, I have added this :

SELECT FirstName,IDitem FROM adrsbook

What that does is get a list of first name from my address book when I click on the field/column in a grid (appears as a drop down list).

>Do you use the same field in multiple grids for inheritance?  But they really are simply two distinct fields >with the same attribute.  
>GRID1-NAME  
>GRID2-NAME  

Not sure I understand exactly what you mean. But Grids aren't really database "tables". IQ isn't truly a relational DB. In fact it's more what you could call an Associative Database, although not exactly.

IQ can certainly "mimic" relational DBs features.

You can use the same field displayed in all grids, no problem.
If you have a look at the basic help file (F1), read the first intro sections to get a grip of what IQ is all about. The basic principles are really the most important to understand. There are not many (maybe 4 or 5), but it's important to understand them fully.

>Can we create any SQL databases in INFOQUBE for multi-access (access within INFOQUBE but also from external programs ?)

IQ is already multi-user enabled by design. But I can't expand on the subject at the moment as I don't have enough time.

>I can see that many folks would simply build up or down from the Sample for their main PIM-ish Qube. Right ?

Yup, that's the easiest approach. Leave everything as it is, explore IQ, see how fields relate to each other, look at the grid sources and filters (based on SQL queries) then create new fields and new grids to your liking and slowly build your data universe.

If IQ didn't exist, I'd have to create it !  

[Steven Avery]

Hi,

2 things come to mind.  There should be a full web help system.  Not the internal.  Since you do not want to divert your current position to read. Not sure how strong that is.

I created a new grid.  Added some fields to the field list (Tools-Field Properties), Check "shown" (for that grid) and save.  They do not show and the check is gone when I go back into Tools-Field Properties.  This seems odd, as I approached it intuitively.

Shalom,
Steven

[Armando]

Hi,

2 things come to mind.  There should be a full web help system.  Not the internal.  Since you do not want to divert your current position to read. Not sure how strong that is.

-Steven Avery (August 30, 2011, 08:27 PM)

The help file is actually a compiled CHM based on the web based help documentation.
The reason why there's also a compiled CHM is that it'S MUCH quicker.

I created a new grid.  Added some fields to the field list (Tools-Field Properties), Check "shown" (for that grid) and save.  They do not show and the check is gone when I go back into Tools-Field Properties.  This seems odd, as I approached it intuitively.

Not sure what you did as I just tried it (both with newly created grid, fields and with already existing one) and they show up in the grid.  

But there could be a bug for sure. I just can't reproduce it... That said I'm not using the current version but a special not yet released one for testing. I'll ask Pierre if he can put this one online ASAP.

[tomos]

I created a new grid.  Added some fields to the field list (Tools-Field Properties), Check "shown" (for that grid) and save.  They do not show and the check is gone when I go back into Tools-Field Properties.  This seems odd, as I approached it intuitively.

-Steven Avery (August 30, 2011, 08:27 PM)

Should work - I cant reproduce it either, using a clean 'install' of the portable version "V3" (on Win7 64bit)
Saying that, I have had a problem lately with grids occasionally not displaying their fields when opened (i.e. showing just the main item field). I havent yet been able to pin down why this is, and it hasn't happened me now since last week...
[IQ thread]

[Armando]

Thanks for chiming in Tom.

@steven
Note that there are other ways to display fields in a grid : 1- drag & drop fields from the properties pane (view-> properties, or F4 or shift+F4) to the grid column header space, 2- right click on column header space and select "add/remove columns"

[johnk]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that InfoQube is an alternative to simple flat-file list management programs such as Listpro.

I have tried a few times to become familiar with IQ, and while I admire its power, I don't think even IQ's greatest fan would describe it as simple and intuitive in the same manner as ListPro.

I think ListPro is the best of the simple list programs, and like xtabber, I've only considered moving away from it because they show no interest in providing an Android version.

Haven't found anything yet. Checkmark now has a desktop version in beta, so maybe worth keeping an eye on.

[Armando]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that InfoQube is an alternative to simple flat-file list management programs such as Listpro.

I have tried a few times to become familiar with IQ, and while I admire its power, I don't think even IQ's greatest fan would describe it as simple and intuitive in the same manner as ListPro.
[...]

-johnk (August 31, 2011, 11:33 AM)

Of course, you're probably right. But Steven asked for an alternative addressing certain problems he has. That said, apart from the idea that IQ's grids display items in the database through filters, which IMO is a simple concept but not common enough, everything else can be ignored and IQ can simply be used to create simple lists (it's an outliner), and from there one can add complexity when the situation calls for it. But if one doesn't need any "expandability", then yes, IQ will feel like a bloated software. It's a bit (although not exactly) like wanting an alternative to notepad to be able to write chars on white page and getting MS Word instead.

[Steven Avery]

Hi,

I think ListPro is the best of the simple list programs,

-johnk (August 31, 2011, 11:33 AM)

It is impressive.  All my coupons, or accounts, or serial # or domains, or even things like an informal auto expense log with where the car and category is defined by you etc.  The fact is you can tweak design (e.g. add fields) while you do quick data entry in a way that I have not seen before.  A lot of the stuff like categories and key strokes are well designed. They probably won't enhance the windows version much (e.g. tabs, better printing, forum discussion) because of energy on mobile stuff.  Still, I am very impressed. And the expense, even without a discount, is a no-brainer.

Steven

[steeladept]

I know you are looking for ListPro + perfect printing, but I don't think anything will work *Exactly* the same with the same ease of use.  That said, have you looked at OneNote?  EverNote?  ListPro looks to me superficially at least, to be very much like these programs.  Maybe not as full featured as they are, but definitely equally flexible.  I don't have much experience with EverNote, but I know OneNote allows a lot of these things as simple as a Notebook.  Since it is often compared with EverNote, I am guessing it is similar (and EverNote has Android support for those looking for that).  Another route a coworker goes is using a personal Wiki.  I never could get into that workflow, but it might work for you.  Just other routes to consider.

[sword]

Re: Flexible List (data) Management - ListPro and the Alternatives
...field design, and placement, and sorting...
Flexible printing is a real need. Automated Printing - saving a print procedure of various lists...Tab structure would help....
So, are there any List management softwares that are similarly capable, with good printing
Short of database programs (or if you use a database, which one and why ?)

I recommend DataBase Professional by Avanquest (formerly Elibrium), commercial, about $50. USD. Highly customisable, easy (tabbed) data entry, view and print; data table view and print; powerful searching and filtering; form creation and printing; import data from several file types; provided and custom reports can be edited, saved, exported and printed as well as sorted and filtered. I got three license keys, the CD and manual for the 2003 version from Elibrium and it has been excellent. Any questions about how this early version prints?

[Steven Avery]

Hi Folks,

I recommend DataBase Professional by Avanquest (formerly Elibrium),

-sword (September 03, 2011, 02:19 PM)

You mention tabbed, so many they still enhance this ?  That would be a good sign, although surprising.

Alpha 4 and DataEase and archaic products theoretically could be pretty good, but they either perspired or were replaced with confusing Windows event-driven stuff. However, the environment of the programs tends to get in the way of ease of use (ListPro simple explorer folder type setup for dozens of lists.)

If there is a play or trial mode I might play with it.  It has to hold the hot-links in a special field too, (or recognize the syntax as linkable) one of the ListPro niceties that is 100% needed. e.g. I have a list of current forum posts throughout the net to check, and one of the fields is the url.

Overall, I remain quite happy with ListPro, although the printing is a bit unflexible, when you go to "print to HTML" (what I call it when you export to a HTML file) you can define fields.  However you cannot save the setup.

So far, though my daily use is mostly online access.

Shalom,
Steven

[Paul Keith]

I don't really understand the thread but it seems like this is what Brainstorm was designed for. Don't ask me how to use the program though.

[Steven Avery]

Hi Paul,

Here is a pic I took of my ListPro. Remember that I had a hard time uploading from my disk, I am trying zScreen and ImageShack (all free).

Flexible List (data) Management - ListPro and the Alternatives

======================

Notice how there are different headings and user-defined types of fields and they can be modified very quickly.
Somehow I did not get the part of the page that shows the URL .. a very important feature.

Everything is easy with ListPro.

a) design (and modification)
b) navigation (except for the lack of tabs)
c) data entry
d) sorting (any field)
e) searching (although I have not used that much)

It seems like there is a limit of 30 fields in a "List" .. a table. Which is generally more than sufficient for these types of purposes.

Steven

[Paul Keith]

Hi, unfortunately the image doesn't load for me. (Domain unregistered. The one with the frog.)