Author Topic: 3Tb Drives are Here! That's 500,000 songs. Enough yet? (Read 14107 times)

zridling · « **on:** February 17, 2011, 06:26 AM »

I'm going to need a lot of floppies to back that up. No seriously, I could use that for my various "collections." Price expected to be about $240.
http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7897/

Renegade · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2011, 06:33 AM »

Jeez...

I put a Blu-ray burner in my desktop for optical backups. Now, to back up that drive, it would only take, oh, 60 dual-layer discs or 120 singles... Yikes...

Now if only we could get 3TB SSDs for $240~!

Renegade · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2011, 06:33 AM »

That's going to sound like soooo dated in like a few months...

f0dder · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:31 AM »

I put a Blu-ray burner in my desktop for optical backups.
-Renegade (February 17, 2011, 06:33 AM)

What, there's still people using optical media for backups? O_o

Renegade · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:50 AM »

I like having optical backups. I backup to other external drives, but optical are great as they are cheap and discrete.

superboyac · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2011, 08:35 AM »

Jeez...

I put a Blu-ray burner in my desktop for optical backups. Now, to back up that drive, it would only take, oh, 60 dual-layer discs or 120 singles... Yikes...

Now if only we could get 3TB SSDs for $240~!
-Renegade (February 17, 2011, 06:33 AM)

Renegade, what do you use for discs and how much do they cost?

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:32 AM »

I put a Blu-ray burner in my desktop for optical backups.
-Renegade (February 17, 2011, 06:33 AM)
What, there's still people using optical media for backups? O_o
-f0dder (February 17, 2011, 07:31 AM)

I see a lot of SOHO/SMBs doing optical backups ... I've yet to see any of them do a successful restore... *Shrug* ...But at least they're trying.

superboyac · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2011, 11:40 AM »

holy shit, 3 tb is a lot. But if you think about it, backing up a bluray disc will be about 50GB. So a 3TB drive will <only> hold 60 bluray movies. That's not a lot. I plan on transferring my entire collection within the next year or two, i should probably plan ahead on how much space I'll need. i don't know about you guys, but I'm damn excited for the day when I can watch all my stuff without flipping dvd's in and out. Oo baby. I'm also closely monitoring Java's HTPC front end journey.

f0dder · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2011, 12:50 PM »

I put a Blu-ray burner in my desktop for optical backups.
-Renegade (February 17, 2011, 06:33 AM)
What, there's still people using optical media for backups? O_o
-f0dder (February 17, 2011, 07:31 AM)

I see a lot of SOHO/SMBs doing optical backups ... I've yet to see any of them do a successful restore...
-Stoic Joker (February 17, 2011, 11:32 AM)

Exactly.

But if you think about it, backing up a bluray disc will be about 50GB. So a 3TB drive will <only> hold 60 bluray movies.
-superboyac (February 17, 2011, 11:40 AM)

Convert to mkv/x264 and you're down to ~8gig apop with very little visible quality loss - if your main reason is backups and ease of use, that's good enough, and you can store the original discs in a safe and humidity-controlled environment

superboyac · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2011, 12:59 PM »

But if you think about it, backing up a bluray disc will be about 50GB. So a 3TB drive will <only> hold 60 bluray movies.
-superboyac (February 17, 2011, 11:40 AM)
Convert to mkv/x264 and you're down to ~8gig apop with very little visible quality loss - if your main reason is backups and ease of use, that's good enough, and you can store the original discs in a safe and humidity-controlled environment
-f0dder (February 17, 2011, 12:50 PM)

See, I don't understand that at all. How can you go from 50GB to 8GB and see no visible loss? i don't understand. Is the other 40GB just waste? If I convert it using makemkv, how big will the file be? I've always assumed that it would be the full 50GB since makemkv doesn't compress. But I really don't want to compress if I can help it. however, if what you say is true, why should I waste that much space for no reason?

f0dder · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2011, 01:32 PM »

If you sit down and watch each and every still frame of your movie, spending several seconds analyzing each one, you'll sure see a lot of difference - the compression algorithm isn't magically ~7x better (oh, and the size is going to be larger for 1080p, I'm used to 720p

).

Thing is, when you watch a movie, you aren't spending several seconds per frame - iirc BluRay runs at ~24fps. So yes, while you do lose some information, you're unlikely to notice it while the movie is running. I'm the kind of guy that rips my music collection to FLAC instead of lossy formats, but for the most part I'm perfectly happy watching movies in 720p x264 rips. For my viewing distance and TV (a 1080p 32" Sony), the result is very nice

superboyac · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2011, 02:46 PM »

If you sit down and watch each and every still frame of your movie, spending several seconds analyzing each one, you'll sure see a lot of difference - the compression algorithm isn't magically ~7x better (oh, and the size is going to be larger for 1080p, I'm used to 720p ).

Thing is, when you watch a movie, you aren't spending several seconds per frame - iirc BluRay runs at ~24fps. So yes, while you do lose some information, you're unlikely to notice it while the movie is running. I'm the kind of guy that rips my music collection to FLAC instead of lossy formats, but for the most part I'm perfectly happy watching movies in 720p x264 rips. For my viewing distance and TV (a 1080p 32" Sony), the result is very nice
-f0dder (February 17, 2011, 01:32 PM)

Flac, eh? If you do that, I'm surprised you don't go lossless on the video also. But you justify it well. Heck, i don't even do flac yet. My collection is still mostly mp3. But I do intend to one day explore the whole audiophile experiment with the expensive headphones and headphone amps, etc. just to see if there's something to it. I'll be pissed if I need to redo everything in FLAC.

My plans for my HTPC is to have a HUGE projector, like 10' wide. So that's why I figured I'd just go lossless on the video. And makemkv makes it so easy to convert. I'm going to stick with that for now. Hard drives are so cheap anyway.

JavaJones · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2011, 03:04 PM »

Projectors will mitigate any compression artifact issues you'd see at reasonably high bitrates (e.g. 8-12GB files for 1080P, 4-8GB for 720P) because they inherently have some softening due to image enlargement in the projection process.

- Oshyan

superboyac · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2011, 03:28 PM »

Projectors will mitigate any compression artifact issues you'd see at reasonably high bitrates (e.g. 8-12GB files for 1080P, 4-8GB for 720P) because they inherently have some softening due to image enlargement in the projection process.
-JavaJones (February 17, 2011, 03:04 PM)

JJ, I'm a little torn on this issue. Would it be a better experience for me if I get a really big flat panel, or if I get a projector? Light is not an issue since I almost exclusively watch tv/movies in the dark. So I don't care how visible things are when there's a lot of light. I like the projector for being able to really get a HUGE screen, which is extremely appealing to me. But i don't want to regret a noticeably poorer picture quality. But then, i don't want to regret settling for a 50" TV when I could have a 10' TV. Size matters...that's what "they" tell me. So can you help me make a decision on this? You seem to have already gone down this whole HTPC path.

JavaJones · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2011, 03:52 PM »

Sure, I've got lots of thoughts on this subject.

I'll try to just make it easy for you though. IF light is not a concern *and* you don't care about 3D, *and* you have no interest in regularly using your HTPC as a "PC" (i.e browsing the web on it or something), then a projector will give you greater size with good sharpness. It is *not* pixel-level sharpness, which is what an LCD or Plasma will get you, so it's not ideal for reading small text, e.g. a website, but it *does* make movies look good.

In fact some would argue a projector makes movies look better than LCD or Plasma, at least in the right viewing conditions (darkness and a good projection surface, ideally a professional screen). This is because pure digital, pixel-level detail is actually not necessarily a good thing. What projectors and analog TVs do is kind of "fill in the details" a bit, at least in a sense (not literally; no *new* and "correct" information is generated). You may have witnessed this phenomenon yourself in fact where, for example, seeing old broadcast TV on an LCD TV of similar size to an analog TV somehow still looks way worse. Why? Because it is displaying *exactly what is in the signal and nothing more*. An analog TV is a bit "softer", but since there is not much resolution in a standard definition signal to begin with, the slight softening is actually a good thing; it makes things look better. Now when you have a good quality projector the resolution is much higher so detail *is* presented fairly clearly, but there is still a bit of "softening", especially on larger projection surfaces (e.g. 10'), and this again can actually enhance the viewing experience, *particularly* at those large sizes and/or with lower resolution source content. I'd rather watch crappy YouTube videos on a projector than an LCD for example.

Anyway all this does assume that you have a place in your house where you can effectively mount and project a 10' picture. If you do, you will be in love with the combination of size and quality it can create in a dark room. The majority of people do *not* have the luxury of that kind of space nor ability to dedicate a room more or less to media appreciation (i.e. a "theater room"), and a projector in a more mixed environment like a living room may not be ideal, unless you spend a bit of money to mount your projector recessed, along with your screen (because surely nobody wants a 10'+ space of blank wall in their living room, right?

).

Anyway, I *do* use my 52" Plasma for computer activities, so I prefer it to a projector, but if I had the space and a dedicated "theater" room I'd probably go projector, especially with the costs of LCDs over 60". All that being said if I had the money I might just go for this:
http://gizmodo.com/#...ds-largest-plasma-tv

- Oshyan

Renegade · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:28 PM »

I put a Blu-ray burner in my desktop for optical backups.
-Renegade (February 17, 2011, 06:33 AM)
What, there's still people using optical media for backups? O_o
-f0dder (February 17, 2011, 07:31 AM)

I see a lot of SOHO/SMBs doing optical backups ... I've yet to see any of them do a successful restore... *Shrug* ...But at least they're trying.
-Stoic Joker (February 17, 2011, 11:32 AM)

Hahahah~!

I use optical for data storage. Not for system backups.

Something like Ghost works with optical for system backups though. However, I've not used Ghost for a long time. I don't even know if it's around anymore.

f0dder · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:29 PM »

What JavaJones said - it's a bit amazing that a poorer image actually looks better

If you do go for the projector, do make sure to get one with decent specs - 1024x768 is not going to look good. Last time I looked, decent-spec projectors (resolution as well as brightness and colors) were insanely expensive... but that's several years past.

f0dder · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:30 PM »

I use optical for data storage. Not for system backups.

Something like Ghost works with optical for system backups though. However, I've not used Ghost for a long time. I don't even know if it's around anymore.
-Renegade (February 17, 2011, 04:28 PM)

My guess is he didn't refer to "oh, how do I get the optical media working with this backup app" - but more along the lines of "shoot, I can't reliably get the data off this media because opticals are unstable pieces of crap"

Renegade · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:33 PM »

Renegade, what do you use for discs and how much do they cost?
-superboyac (February 17, 2011, 08:35 AM)

Not sure. I think they're like $1 a disc? Maybe $2?

I only use them for data backups. Mostly completed projects and my Visual Studio directories.

Renegade · « **Reply #19 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:35 PM »

I use optical for data storage. Not for system backups.

Something like Ghost works with optical for system backups though. However, I've not used Ghost for a long time. I don't even know if it's around anymore.
-Renegade (February 17, 2011, 04:28 PM)
My guess is he didn't refer to "oh, how do I get the optical media working with this backup app" - but more along the lines of "shoot, I can't reliably get the data off this media because opticals are unstable pieces of crap"
-f0dder (February 17, 2011, 04:30 PM)

Sigh... This is true... Which I why for anything important I make 2 discs, and occasionally 3 when my paranoia levels get higher.

f0dder · « **Reply #20 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:48 PM »

Sigh... This is true... Which I why for anything important I make 2 discs, and occasionally 3 when my paranoia levels get higher.
-Renegade (February 17, 2011, 04:35 PM)

I've moved away from optical entirely - harddrives are so much faster and more comfortable to use, and (knock on wood) more reliable as well

4wd · « **Reply #21 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:51 PM »

I've yet to see any of them do a successful restore...
-Stoic Joker (February 17, 2011, 11:32 AM)

I've done one sir!</Puts hand up>

...but it was when I used DVD-RAM for backups...nowadays it's to HDDs.

If they could design an optical equivalent to DVD-RAM, (ie. very reliable), with a much larger capacity then I might be tempted to use it again.

superboyac · « **Reply #22 on:** February 17, 2011, 05:05 PM »

Sure, I've got lots of thoughts on this subject. I'll try to just make it easy for you though. IF light is not a concern *and* you don't care about 3D, *and* you have no interest in regularly using your HTPC as a "PC" (i.e browsing the web on it or something), then a projector will give you greater size with good sharpness. It is *not* pixel-level sharpness, which is what an LCD or Plasma will get you, so it's not ideal for reading small text, e.g. a website, but it *does* make movies look good.

In fact some would argue a projector makes movies look better than LCD or Plasma, at least in the right viewing conditions (darkness and a good projection surface, ideally a professional screen). This is because pure digital, pixel-level detail is actually not necessarily a good thing. What projectors and analog TVs do is kind of "fill in the details" a bit, at least in a sense (not literally; no *new* and "correct" information is generated). You may have witnessed this phenomenon yourself in fact where, for example, seeing old broadcast TV on an LCD TV of similar size to an analog TV somehow still looks way worse. Why? Because it is displaying *exactly what is in the signal and nothing more*. An analog TV is a bit "softer", but since there is not much resolution in a standard definition signal to begin with, the slight softening is actually a good thing; it makes things look better. Now when you have a good quality projector the resolution is much higher so detail *is* presented fairly clearly, but there is still a bit of "softening", especially on larger projection surfaces (e.g. 10'), and this again can actually enhance the viewing experience, *particularly* at those large sizes and/or with lower resolution source content. I'd rather watch crappy YouTube videos on a projector than an LCD for example.

Anyway all this does assume that you have a place in your house where you can effectively mount and project a 10' picture. If you do, you will be in love with the combination of size and quality it can create in a dark room. The majority of people do *not* have the luxury of that kind of space nor ability to dedicate a room more or less to media appreciation (i.e. a "theater room"), and a projector in a more mixed environment like a living room may not be ideal, unless you spend a bit of money to mount your projector recessed, along with your screen (because surely nobody wants a 10'+ space of blank wall in their living room, right? ).

Anyway, I *do* use my 52" Plasma for computer activities, so I prefer it to a projector, but if I had the space and a dedicated "theater" room I'd probably go projector, especially with the costs of LCDs over 60". All that being said if I had the money I might just go for this:
http://gizmodo.com/#...ds-largest-plasma-tv

- Oshyan
-JavaJones (February 17, 2011, 03:52 PM)

Thanks soooo much JJ!!! I think you have helped me decide right now. I'm going with the projector. I want to have the most badass theater experience around. I love watching movies almost more than anything. And I love watching it in as close to blackout conditions as possible. Oh baby! And yes, I am fortunate enough to have a large area to do this. The bottom floor of my house is completely open, so I have a 10' high wall and probably 30' wide area available. This is going to be great. I even have a nook area, where everyone wants me to put my tv, but I refuse to. I'm putting in the main living room area. Why should I watch movies in the corner when I can use the main area for it and have plenty of room for guests? That's a common syndrome in my family which I have railed against for years. They like to take the biggest room in the house, call it the "living room" and use it about 5 times a year. Then they take the "den" which is one of the smaller rooms available, and spend most of their lives there. No. I will not do that. I remember being so pissed about that as a kid in my parent's house. They have this huge room which is like half the house, and they only use it for Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.
I am so freaking excited about this. There's nothing better than a cold, rainy Friday night spent watching a movie on a big screen in your house in pitch black conditions, with a buzz and a nice girl. mmmm. Can't beat that.

Spoiler

(My guilty pleasure that I'm hoping is going to be a fun experience with this planned home theater makeover is to see what watching an opera on DVD will be like. If that turns out to be as good as I think, oh shit. People may have a hard time getting me out of the house.)

JavaJones · « **Reply #23 on:** February 18, 2011, 03:20 PM »

Hehe, sounds awesome. You'll probably want to get a proper screen, which may need to be retractable given this is a multi-use room. And f0dder is right on getting a good projector, you need to get a full 1080p model with sufficient lumens and designed for a throw distance and projection size equal to or greater than your room dimensions. This will be expensive but doesn't have to be insanely expensive. You can spend a *lot* on an amazing projector, but to make best use of it you really want a proper dedicated theater room. For your purposes I would think something in the range of $2000-4000 would give you awesome results. You might even be able to get away with something more budget friendly, depending on how visually picky you are. 3-4k is more than most large LCDs mind you, so keep that in mind (you can get a nice 60" for about $1500-2000 now).

You should know though that this all may be opening a can of worms (worms which you may no doubt enjoy

). If you spring for a decent projector, you'll want to properly calibrate it for example. You'll need a proper screen, not just projecting on your wall. You'll want a good 5.1 or better sound system (if you don't already have one). Etc, etc. In the end it could end up being a $10,000+ project, and that's *modest* for a "home theater", even a living room one. But it sounds like it's something you'd enjoy, and given the $500 alarm clock I suspect you can afford it.

Potentially useful info here: http://www.projector...-projector/index.php

- Oshyan

superboyac · « **Reply #24 on:** February 18, 2011, 03:30 PM »

Thanks JJ! You've figured me out!
Yeah, I'm interested in the whole home theater experience. $10k...hmmm, that's not the cheapest thing in the world, but not entirely out of the question. My other 2011 project is to buy a grand piano, which is also a big budget hit. And there's my home server project, geez...i shouldn't do all of these this year.