Author Topic: What’s this "Linux" thing and why should i try it? (Read 39089 times)

urlwolf · « **Reply #25 on:** March 20, 2008, 05:36 AM »

Ok, with people who *fear* the drivers hunting and spotty hardware support of linux... I really think that andlinux.org is the fastest way to test this OS. This is a linux kernel compiled for windows (!). It runs at almost native speed (that I can see; I don't have stats). It uses the windows drivers, so if your hardware works on windows, you are covered.

It's a fully working linux runing on windows. Not a VM (like VMware).

If you have 2GB HD and can spare 256mb of memory (or more) you have all you need to test linux.

The distro they use is ubuntu.

Often, being spared of the time-waste chasing drivers is the only thing people need to spend time on linux. This is much better than live-CDs (that, after all, are limited in speed by the constant reads of the CD).

urlwolf · « **Reply #26 on:** March 20, 2008, 05:38 AM »

and if you were planning to use linux on a laptop, then you are right fearing drivers hunt!

wraith808 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 20, 2008, 03:31 PM »

I wasn't complaining about people trying GNU/Linux. I was complaining about people who don't have the time to spend to learn a new way of doing things, and instead of just saying they are just used to the OS they have been using and don't have the time to learn something new, they immediately dismiss the alternative as 'crap' because they aren't used to it.
-Gothi[c] (March 19, 2008, 11:48 PM)

Well, I don't dismiss Linux as crap, I just put it in the category of things I want to have time to do but don't. The very real situation (at least for me) is that I run my own business, which includes going to work at client locations, drumming up new business, and working on what I didn't get to finish at the client site at home. Then, I still have to refresh my skills/learn new things as they come out, write articles, and then maybe get a little while to get off the computer and do something social. I just don't have the extra hours in the day to learn it. I suppose I should look for some kind of dummies book- don't laugh. They are a great way to learn new things as you don't have to dig to find out the basics; you can then learn the rest as you use it. But I just haven't been able to justify spending the time on it when I can be doing things that are more closely related to my earnings potential.

zridling · « **Reply #28 on:** March 21, 2008, 12:40 AM »

Point taken, wraith808 — there's a learning curve for everything not immediately familiar. 2008 will see consistent strides towards overall Linux usability for us Windows users who either make the switch or just want to learn something new. But if you do venture to try it, stick with the more popular distros at first, such as:

This way, you're computing among the crowd.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #29 on:** March 21, 2008, 06:10 AM »

I tried RedHat (now Fedora) back when and it installed and ran fine, without incident, and worked...which was kind of ...boaring. So I flattened the box and took a crack at Slackware 9, which then proceeded to be much more of a challenge (which is what I was actually after).

My situation is much like wraith808's (While I don't own the company, I do tend to work 16hr days and dance on the edge of burnout constantly). But I still enjoy a good challenge.

I'm barely beginning to scratch the surface of understanding exactly how Linux of put together...so I'm not about to even attempt to form any opinions about how the OS is put together. I will however unequivocally state that their documentation is pathetically lacking in concise information. But that's OK ... I'm having fun!

The Slackware VPC is still sitting here, running on my desktop, taunting me, I swear I can hear it laughing. I could just delete it, but that would be admitting defeat ... Which I can not do. I will continue the fight until I force the evil beast to bend to my will, and only then will I decide if the fight was worth it.

Edvard · « **Reply #30 on:** March 21, 2008, 12:40 PM »

Tip:
More often than not, I have found answers to many problems on the Gentoo Wiki. Very good documentation at that.

It's not just applicable to Gentoo, these answers apply to most distros, with the only thing to watch being whether yours uses /usr/local (Red Hat, Mandriva, etc.) or /usr (almost everybody else...) for user-installed apps.

Lashiec · « **Reply #31 on:** March 21, 2008, 01:03 PM »

Talking about tips sites, the Linux section of the Scot's Newsletter forums has a really nice list of useful tricks for those approaching Linux for the first time authored by the resident Linux expert there.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #32 on:** March 21, 2008, 11:14 PM »

Update: I now have file sharing working. I got a chat session going with an old friend (who's a Linux guy) from Iceland and he got me far enough to get the blasted thing to throw an error (Yahoo - finally something to work with) ... seems I'd managed to get smb.conf saved in the wrong location.

Only other issue was I was missing a package that controlled authentication.

zridling · « **Reply #33 on:** March 24, 2008, 02:55 AM »

[Lashiec]: the Linux section of the Scot's Newsletter forums has a really nice list of useful tricks for those approaching Linux for the first time

Wow Lashiec, thanks! That's a long-running 5-year old thread, but if you peruse it, you'll find tons of great links, right from the start. I appreciate you sharing that, since I'd given up on Scot since he went all Mac on everybody about three years ago.

whippy · « **Reply #34 on:** March 26, 2008, 03:36 AM »

Hi , I recently put Freespire on my second hard drive now windows doesn't recognize it . It shows up under disk management as a unnamed drive and "healthy and active " any ideas on what is wrong ? Thanks

Dirhael · « **Reply #35 on:** March 26, 2008, 08:24 AM »

Hi , I recently put Freespire on my second hard drive now windows doesn't recognize it . It shows up under disk management as a unnamed drive and "healthy and active " any ideas on what is wrong ? Thanks
-whippy (March 26, 2008, 03:36 AM)

Windows can't read ext*/reiserfs/whatever other file system your Linux installation is using. Windows will only recognize NTFS and FAT file systems, nothing else. There's not really anything you can do about it. I know there is a driver out there somewhere that lets Windows read Ext2/3 but it was so unreliable and caused so many BSOD's for me that I wouldn't bother looking it up. On the positive side though, *nix can both read and write NTFS using NTFS-3g (now used by default in most distros).

EDIT: I almost forgot, if you are using Total Commander on Windows, you can use this FS plugin to gain read access to Ext*/ReiserFS partitions. It's not 100% perfect, but it will let you read almost anything on said file systems.

f0dder · « **Reply #36 on:** March 26, 2008, 08:33 AM »

From benchmarks, NTFS-3g performance seems abysmal, though... and how full is it's support? Does it support $BadClus, for instance? Does it journal it's operations, and does it support journal playback?

Too bad that nobody wrote proper ext*, xfs and reiserfs drivers for windows, it would be interesting to compare those filesystems against native NTFS performance.

Dirhael · « **Reply #37 on:** March 26, 2008, 08:55 AM »

From benchmarks, NTFS-3g performance seems abysmal, though... and how full is it's support? Does it support $BadClus, for instance? Does it journal it's operations, and does it support journal playback?

Too bad that nobody wrote proper ext*, xfs and reiserfs drivers for windows, it would be interesting to compare those filesystems against native NTFS performance.
-f0dder (March 26, 2008, 08:33 AM)

I don't know how "full" the support is, but from my experience in just using it I have yet to encounter a single problem with corrupted files etc. Performance have also generally been quite good (certainly not abysmal) and have improved a lot since I first tested it back when it was brand new, even if it's not *as* fast as ext3 and friends. I wouldn't use it as my root filesystem (you can do so but...why?), but it's perfect for sharing files between the OS's when dual booting

f0dder · « **Reply #38 on:** March 26, 2008, 09:42 AM »

Thing is, if ntfs-3g doesn't have journal playback, it's dangerous to mount a NTFS partition that hasn't been cleanly unmounted (BSOD, whatever). And if ntfs-3g doesn't do journalling itself, power-loss or kernel crash is dangerous... I couldn't find mention of journalling on the ntfs-3g site, but their FAQ section does make me go ho-humm. At least it sounds like all the serious bugs are weeded out nowadays, even if the driver still isn't optimal

Dirhael · « **Reply #39 on:** March 26, 2008, 10:16 AM »

Thing is, if ntfs-3g doesn't have journal playback, it's dangerous to mount a NTFS partition that hasn't been cleanly unmounted (BSOD, whatever). And if ntfs-3g doesn't do journalling itself, power-loss or kernel crash is dangerous... I couldn't find mention of journalling on the ntfs-3g site, but their FAQ section does make me go ho-humm. At least it sounds like all the serious bugs are weeded out nowadays, even if the driver still isn't optimal
-f0dder (March 26, 2008, 09:42 AM)

Ah, that. Well, I have crashed both XP and Linux in the middle of write operations with the result that fsutil reported the file system as dirty. I have then tried booting into Linux and NTFS-3g would not mount the drive but instead told me to start Windows and scan the disk for errors. You can force it to mount anyway, but you will never accidentally do so...thankfully

Armando · « **Reply #40 on:** March 26, 2008, 09:47 PM »

[...] fsutil reported the file system as dirty. I have then tried booting into Linux and NTFS-3g would not mount the drive but instead told me to start Windows and scan the disk for errors. You can force it to mount anyway, but you will never accidentally do so...thankfully
-Dirhael (March 26, 2008, 10:16 AM)

Same experience here.

And I trust ntfs3g for "file sharing" with windows -- never had one problem, and never heard of file loss with it recently. Performance numbers might not look impressive, but in day to day usage, it's really not bad at all. Really.

(BTW : I thought ntfs-3g supported journaling... or at least partially...Just can't find where I read that... hummmm...)

zridling · « **Reply #41 on:** March 26, 2008, 10:15 PM »

[Gothi[c]]: Like I said before, if you're relatively new to GNU/Linux, or if you're not very proficient in it, and you don't have the time to spend to learn a new system, then just stick to what you're using, instead of trying it for 2 days and then coming back to complain.

Ah, the first and most difficult hurdle of all Windows users — myself included — face. Not to give up when it doesn't work at first or doesn't behave like Windows. (The second is the general confusion between Linux, the kernel, and its various desktop environments, such as Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Enlightenment, etc.)

Stoic Joker, I applaud you trying to use Slackware again, but I hope you understand that Slackware hasn't made the progress in usability that other distros have, and you're trudging up GNU/Linux's steepest hill with that choice. I don't know anyone who recommends Slackware except for advanced or highly experienced Linux users. Consider a Debian-based distro like sidux if you want a GNU/Linux experience where many of those challenges have been resolved by other people.

whippy · « **Reply #42 on:** March 27, 2008, 02:51 AM »

Hi , I recently put Freespire on my second hard drive now windows doesn't recognize it . It shows up under disk management as a unnamed drive and "healthy and active " any ideas on what is wrong ? Thanks
-whippy (March 26, 2008, 03:36 AM)

Windows can't read ext*/reiserfs/whatever other file system your Linux installation is using. Windows will only recognize NTFS and FAT file systems, nothing else. There's not really anything you can do about it. I know there is a driver out there somewhere that lets Windows read Ext2/3 but it was so unreliable and caused so many BSOD's for me that I wouldn't bother looking it up. On the positive side though, *nix can both read and write NTFS using NTFS-3g (now used by default in most distros).

EDIT: I almost forgot, if you are using Total Commander on Windows, you can use this FS plugin to gain read access to Ext*/ReiserFS partitions. It's not 100% perfect, but it will let you read almost anything on said file systems.
-Dirhael (March 26, 2008, 08:24 AM)

Ok so how should I have done it ? Do I have to reformat the linux hard drive ?

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #43 on:** March 27, 2008, 06:15 AM »

[Gothi[c]]: Like I said before, if you're relatively new to GNU/Linux, or if you're not very proficient in it, and you don't have the time to spend to learn a new system, then just stick to what you're using, instead of trying it for 2 days and then coming back to complain.

Ah, the first and most difficult hurdle of all Windows users — myself included — face. Not to give up when it doesn't work at first or doesn't behave like Windows. (The second is the general confusion between Linux, the kernel, and its various desktop environments, such as Gnome, KDE, Xfce, Enlightenment, etc.)

Stoic Joker, I applaud you trying to use Slackware again, but I hope you understand that Slackware hasn't made the progress in usability that other distros have, and you're trudging up GNU/Linux's steepest hill with that choice. I don't know anyone who recommends Slackware except for advanced or highly experienced Linux users. Consider a Debian-based distro like sidux if you want a GNU/Linux experience where many of those challenges have been resolved by other people.
-zridling (March 26, 2008, 10:15 PM)

Actually my intent was to go with the Baptism-by-Fire concept ... Which makes Slackware an ideal choice. To that end, I've had quite a bit of fun with it (swearing included...). I just need to get the sound working and it will be completely functional.

Dirhael · « **Reply #44 on:** March 27, 2008, 07:11 AM »

Hi , I recently put Freespire on my second hard drive now windows doesn't recognize it . It shows up under disk management as a unnamed drive and "healthy and active " any ideas on what is wrong ? Thanks
-whippy (March 26, 2008, 03:36 AM)

Windows can't read ext*/reiserfs/whatever other file system your Linux installation is using. Windows will only recognize NTFS and FAT file systems, nothing else. There's not really anything you can do about it. I know there is a driver out there somewhere that lets Windows read Ext2/3 but it was so unreliable and caused so many BSOD's for me that I wouldn't bother looking it up. On the positive side though, *nix can both read and write NTFS using NTFS-3g (now used by default in most distros).

EDIT: I almost forgot, if you are using Total Commander on Windows, you can use this FS plugin to gain read access to Ext*/ReiserFS partitions. It's not 100% perfect, but it will let you read almost anything on said file systems.
-Dirhael (March 26, 2008, 08:24 AM)
Ok so how should I have done it ? Do I have to reformat the linux hard drive ?
-whippy (March 27, 2008, 02:51 AM)

You haven't done anything wrong, it's just the way it works. Microsoft have their own file systems and Apple & *nix have others. Sure you can reformat your HDD if you want to access it from Windows again, but that means removing Linux. Technically it is possible to install Linux on an NTFS drive using the NTFS-3g driver but performance will suffer, you'll lose some rather important features that is very likely to stop your Linux installation from working as intended and I don't think you will find many (any?) distros that will set that up for you automatically in any case.

f0dder · « **Reply #45 on:** March 27, 2008, 09:03 AM »

Stoic Joker: I can't see much reason to use slackware these days, to be honest. If you want a relatively steep learning curve and enjoy getting your hands dirty, you should go with gentoo instead... it's more up-to-date and alive

dirhael: iirc Wubi uses NTFS root FS.

Dirhael · « **Reply #46 on:** March 27, 2008, 09:20 AM »

dirhael: iirc Wubi uses NTFS root FS.
-f0dder (March 27, 2008, 09:03 AM)

Indeed it does, but the problem still remains that some programs and utilities will still probably not work as intended due to file permissions and other things that are handled different by the various file systems. Also, I don't really understand why anyone would want to take the performance hit.

In any case, if you're just playing around and testing linux I think you would be better off just running it in a virtual machine seeing as there are several completely free alternatives out there today

urlwolf · « **Reply #47 on:** March 27, 2008, 12:59 PM »

dirhael: iirc Wubi uses NTFS root FS.
-f0dder (March 27, 2008, 09:03 AM)

Indeed it does, but the problem still remains that some programs and utilities will still probably not work as intended due to file permissions and other things that are handled different by the various file systems. Also, I don't really understand why anyone would want to take the performance hit.

In any case, if you're just playing around and testing linux I think you would be better off just running it in a virtual machine seeing as there are several completely free alternatives out there today
-Dirhael (March 27, 2008, 09:20 AM)

Or using andlinux.
I don't know how they do it, but you do have an ext3 FS. at least, it says so in /etc/fstab.
And you save the install process of Wubi.

Edvard · « **Reply #48 on:** March 27, 2008, 02:14 PM »

Actually my intent was to go with the Baptism-by-Fire concept ... Which makes Slackware an ideal choice. To that end, I've had quite a bit of fun with it (swearing included...). I just need to get the sound working and it will be completely functional.
-Stoic Joker (March 27, 2008, 06:15 AM)

Stoic Joker:
Remember to add yourself to the "Audio" group (I assume you've already installed OSS and/or Alsa)
In fact, while you're at it, check to see what groups you may or may not or should be part of.

I'm a former Slackware victi... uh, user. I've still got a few tricks up my sleeve...

Dormouse · « **Reply #49 on:** March 27, 2008, 02:22 PM »

I've still got a few tricks up my sleeve...
-Edvard (March 27, 2008, 02:14 PM)

Probably developed quite capacious sleeves too.