Thoughts on "Piracy".

[KynloStephen66515]

Hey guys,

For a long time, I have been wondering what you guys think on the subject of piracy.

Personally I DO pirate Movies, Games, Software etc...but I have a logical reason behind it, and I will explain this now:

Quite simply, I do not have the money to splash out on Software I may not fully utilize, Games I might not enjoy or Movies that might suck so badly the DVD is worth nothing more than to play Frisbee with.  Coupled with this, and the fact that most "Demos" or "Trials" are...well...useless and usually  constrained in terms of features...how can one really judge if something is worth spending money on?

This is where piracy comes into play for me...I can simply download the full versions of whatever...and then decide if it is worth me paying out for...I wouldn't have bought nearly 3/4 of the games on my Steam if I didn't pirate them first...I wouldn't own the movies I own if I had not have pirated them and watched them first...and I certainly wouldn't own most of the (Payware) software I own if I had not tried the full versions via piracy first.

I do understand that my situation and reasoning for piracy may be different to most...but for me...those developers would never have got a penny from me, had I not been able to pirate their stuff first...so...they have GAINED by me "Breaking the law".

So...My question on this is, what do you guys think...I know a lot of you hate piracy, but a lot of you will also (whether publicly, or secretly) download things...so it would be nice to hear your thoughts!

[Stoic Joker]

I have always gone by my own definition of what is to be construed as 'Fair and Reasonable'. If I'm going to be deciding on the purchase of an application that is hundreds or thousands of dollars...then my 'Trial Period' will be just as long as it takes for me to be comfortable with said applications fitness to preform said task.

I've been hustled through demos by ISV reps far too many times to fall for the slick sales tactic of saying "Oh Sure It'll Do That"...only to find out later that the list of caveats - oddly enough - is a mile long.

So yes, there is - quite literally - a pirate flag hung proudly above my desk ... Because before I parts with any of me Spanish gold I'll be damn sure Ye's not foolin' me. Or the plank it will be with yer carcass for sure..

[MilesAhead]

One thing to keep in mind with music and movies downloaded, the stuff is released on the sly by the marketing apparatus of the content makers.  I know when I was buying Jazz CDs I was very skeptical of tjiis new fangled MP3 stuff and buying music or movies as files only.

I think most people were.  So they needed a way to get people to try the stuff and become accustomed to the packaging(as in none other than the file container format.)  The answer, let people "steal" it.  But since copyright requires you use due diligence to protect said copyright or lose it, another arm of the content providers has to constantly complain about the fact that so much content is stolen.

After the file only content and streaming mediums became excepted as shown by the willingness of people to pay, then those complaining crack down(or stop posting) on free content.

As soon as it became obvious that the content providers were going to go after those getting "free samples" I gave a wide bearth to the whole business.

( Beside I don't have a living room with HDTV to watch the stuff anymore anyway.  Watching movies on a Laptop screen just doesn't appeal somehow.)

Short version, now that they have us buying the stuff they are going to make sure we pay for it.

I rarely buy software since just about anything I need there's a free software that does it.

[Renegade]

I don't use any pirated software at all. My primary reason is that it's too risky. Writing malware is just too easy to do.

So...My question on this is, what do you guys think...

-Stephen66515 (November 23, 2014, 10:23 AM)

I have nothing against piracy. I think more piracy would do the world a lot more good. Particularly in the world of patents.

I'm still fence sitting a bit, but my current overall leaning is that IP should simply be done away with entirely. It causes far too many problems and simply isn't worth it.

But, my leanings there are stronger against patents than against copyright, and in particular against any patent related to life, e.g. seeds, medicine, genes, etc. The harm caused by the patent system is immeasurable.

I think my biggest problem is that I'm having a hard time coming up with a universal principle (or accepting a universal principle), which is keeping me on the fence. For example, it's inconsistent to be against patents for life and not against software patents, etc., and it's inconsistent to be against patents, but not copyright.

So, I don't pretend to be consistent, but I do know where my leanings are at least.

Copying is natural. Even parrots do it.

[40hz]

I don't know where the notion of 'piracy' leaves off and 'entitlement' begins.

I decided it was better for my inner self if I just didn't go there.

• If I want something, or use something, I'll buy it.  Always.
• I'll always prefer to sample or trial some things first. But if that's not possible, the burden of my satisfaction rests entirely on the shoulders of the seller.
• If I don't like it - or feel it was misrepresented by the seller - I'll return it and ask for my money back.
• If I can't have a refund, the person I paid is welcome to what they got. It's the last they'll ever get from me - and I'll  bad mouth them to everyone I know plus anybody else who will listen.
• Conversely, if I do like what I get (and the way I was treated) I'll freely recommend them and their product(s) whenever asked, or when it's otherwise appropriate.

I make it a point to always act in good faith. And I make a far better friend and admirer than I do an adversary.

I think the same can be said of most of us here at DoCo.

Wise businesses know that.

[superboyac]

I don't know where the notion of 'piracy' leaves off and 'entitlement' begins.

I decided it was better for my inner self if I just didn't go there.

• If I want something, or use something, I'll buy it.  Always.
• I'll always prefer to sample or trial some things first. But if that's not possible, the burden of my satisfaction rests entirely on the shoulders of the seller.
• If I don't like it - or feel it was misrepresented by the seller - I'll return it and ask for my money back.
• If I can't have a refund, the person I paid is welcome to what they got. It's the last they'll ever get from me - and I'll  bad mouth them to everyone I know plus anybody else who will listen.
• Conversely, if I do like what I get (and the way I was treated) I'll freely recommend them and their product(s) whenever asked, or when it's otherwise appropriate.

I make it a point to always act in good faith. And I make a far better friend and admirer than I do an adversary.

I think the same can be said of most of us here at DoCo.

Wise businesses know that.

-40hz (November 23, 2014, 06:30 PM)

Very nicely said.  clipped.

[KynloStephen66515]

I don't know where the notion of 'piracy' leaves off and 'entitlement' begins.

I decided it was better for my inner self if I just didn't go there.

• If I want something, or use something, I'll buy it.  Always.
• I'll always prefer to sample or trial some things first. But if that's not possible, the burden of my satisfaction rests entirely on the shoulders of the seller.
• If I don't like it - or feel it was misrepresented by the seller - I'll return it and ask for my money back.
• If I can't have a refund, the person I paid is welcome to what they got. It's the last they'll ever get from me - and I'll  bad mouth them to everyone I know plus anybody else who will listen.
• Conversely, if I do like what I get (and the way I was treated) I'll freely recommend them and their product(s) whenever asked, or when it's otherwise appropriate.

I make it a point to always act in good faith. And I make a far better friend and admirer than I do an adversary.

I think the same can be said of most of us here at DoCo.

Wise businesses know that.

-40hz (November 23, 2014, 06:30 PM)

Don't get me wrong...if I could afford to purchase software or games or whatever on the basis that I "may" like them...then I would...but quite simply, I do not have the money to do that, nor can I say that I could check all the features of Software within however long they are willing to give me a refund for...hell...Half the time I will install something and not even use it for 3 months...by which point I would be completely screwed.

I am not trying to advocate piracy..more...give my reasoning behind why I do it

[Renegade]

I am not trying to advocate piracy.

-Stephen66515 (November 23, 2014, 08:26 PM)

Hehe! I am advocating it.

Here's why some pirating isn't "piracy"...

If you want to keep a secret... don't tell anyone.

If you broadcast a signal that anyone can receive, don't be surprised when they copy that signal.

If you broadcast radio waves through someone's home, you really have no right to complain about what they do with that unless you've taken precautions to encrypt the signal to keep people from accessing the content.

If you have a broken business model, fix it.

The fact remains that more piracy leads to higher revenues. (In the content industry.)


The current state of IP is such a complete disaster that there's really nothing that can be done other than to tear the whole thing down.

Should people be compensated for creating things? Sure.

Who should compensate them? The people that use/consume the creation.

But that's not what happens now, even without piracy. The MAFIAA taxes blank media. That's not just compensation because it steals from people who aren't consuming MAFIAA creations.

One. Big. Mess.

Burn it down.

[KynloStephen66515]

The fact remains that more piracy leads to higher revenues. (In the content industry.)

Agreed...because...for me at least...If I didn't pirate first...then the chances of me buying a game, movie, or payware software...are close to zero

[40hz]

I am not trying to advocate piracy..more...give my reasoning behind why I do it

-Stephen66515 (November 23, 2014, 08:26 PM)

That's fine. I also appreciate the candor.

I'm just giving my reasons why I don't.

But here's the thing. If I want something I don't have the money for - and it's non-negotiable - I walk away.

Once you get clear of the hoarding/consumer "gotta have it now!" mindset, it becomes easier to just let it go. I'm constantly amazed how little I actually need - or really want.



I'm even more amazed how long it took me to realize that. Better to wake up late than never, right?

[eleman]

The current state of IP is such a complete disaster that there's really nothing that can be done other than to tear the whole thing down.

Should people be compensated for creating things? Sure.

Who should compensate them? The people that use/consume the creation.

But that's not what happens now, even without piracy. The MAFIAA taxes blank media. That's not just compensation because it steals from people who aren't consuming MAFIAA creations.

One. Big. Mess.

Burn it down.

-Renegade (November 23, 2014, 08:58 PM)

Today IP is abused to skew the distribution of wealth. Its primary purpose is to make commodities out of thoughts and ideas, so that capital can buy them, and subsequently sell them to consumers at a substantial profit. The "compensating artists" point is no longer relevant, for most, albeit not all, of them earn their living by appearing on events and shows, rather than through royalties.

From this thoroughly political perspective, my conscience is free with respect to downloading things released by billion dollar firms.
For shareware released directly by the programmer, however, I check out the trial version. If I like it, I write to the programmer and tell them $39.99 is a lot of money here in Turkey, and I'd be really happy if they would give me a discount. They often do. Regardless of the discount, in the end I buy the software.

[nosh]

I've pirated ever since my first PC in 1998 came pre-installed with a pirated copy of Win95, MS Office and whatever software I wanted from the seller's huge catalog (and could fit on the mammoth 1GB drive!). I pirate much less now- I need less and I also find it worthwhile paying for a good deal.

Music: I managed to get a Spotify premium membership. I had to go about signing up in a roundabout way and I pay nearly twice the official cost since it's not available in India. So I pay for my music now but technically am still on the wrong side of the law because I'm doing it without the content providers' blessings.

Software: I tend to buy apps that I think are good value for money even if they're available to pirate. Most mobile apps are surprisingly low priced compared to desktop apps. The only pirated app I have on my iPad costs $50 and it's something I use _maybe_ once a year.

Movies/TV shows: The broadband speeds and streaming services have a long way to go here - I see no reason to keep pirating once the situation improves.

I didn't start making the shift from pirating to paying because I woke up one lovely summer day with a different set of ethics. Arguments equating piracy with stealing physical items have never hit home with me. I've always known it's wrong on some level but it's too easy to come up with justifications. And it's easy to hide altogether if you don't talk about it.

In every single case that I've stopped pirating, I've done it for selfish reasons - the clean feeling you get when you're doing the right thing is a motivator but it's not enough to make most people make the change. I think that's a good sign, there's hope if you can get people to make a change appealing to nothing more than their own interests, when you go about things in a smart way. Lectures in morality may make people feel bad about themselves but usually don't change anything more than that.

[Renegade]

For shareware released directly by the programmer, however, I check out the trial version. If I like it, I write to the programmer and tell them $39.99 is a lot of money here in Turkey, and I'd be really happy if they would give me a discount. They often do. Regardless of the discount, in the end I buy the software.

-eleman (November 24, 2014, 12:24 AM)

This works.

I've had people email me before, and I never hesitate to offer them a steep discount. Those that ask for free licenses, well, sorry, but no. I want people to pay *something* because I want them to invest a bit in my software so that they value it and use it.

I also get the odd "I lost my license" email from people who never had a license. Not often, but every once in a while.

Now, before anyone jumps on me for advocating piracy above, my software has been on The Pirate Bay for YEARS and I have NEVER once complained. I've mentioned it, but that's not the same as complaining.

Arguments equating piracy with stealing physical items have never hit home with me.

-nosh (November 24, 2014, 03:21 AM)

Same. Because the argument there is just silly.

If you make something, let's say a movie, and I download it without paying you, you are no worse off than before I downloaded it. I have not inflicted any actual harm on you. I might be better off, but that's debatable - you might be a horrible film maker and I might lose an hour or 2 of my life.

I've always known it's wrong on some level but it's too easy to come up with justifications.

-nosh (November 24, 2014, 03:21 AM)

There are some very good arguments against copying being wrong, and they're good enough to deserve actual scrutiny.

So, whether copying is wrong is up for debate.

All too often we fall into politically correct traps set for us by vested interests. This is one topic where there is little honest debate.

Lectures in morality may make people feel bad about themselves but usually don't change anything more than that.

-nosh (November 24, 2014, 03:21 AM)

"Morality" is often used to bludgeon people. It's possible to frame things to uplift people, but that takes a lot of effort.

I've rewritten countless, scathing, profane rants to be polite (and sometimes uplifting), and I can tell you... even just being polite can take serious effort.

[40hz]

Arguments equating piracy with stealing physical items have never hit home with me.

-nosh (November 24, 2014, 03:21 AM)

Same. Because the argument there is just silly.

If you make something, let's say a movie, and I download it without paying you, you are no worse off than before I downloaded it. I have not inflicted any actual harm on you. I might be better off, but that's debatable - you might be a horrible film maker and I might lose an hour or 2 of my life.

-Renegade (November 24, 2014, 05:51 AM)

Seriously? That's such a sloppy bit of 'logic' (more like circular justification) that I'd think it was written by some government.



 

[Renegade]

Seriously? That's such a sloppy bit of 'logic' that I'd think it was written by some government.

-40hz (November 24, 2014, 06:55 AM)

Yup. That was completely sloppy. You're right. No argument.

But it's one of those topics that I'm willing to poke at, but not willing to be very serious about, and certainly not willing to actually argue in a meaningful way. It's a waste of time because people already have their minds made up. Simply saying that there is another side is more than enough for most people to handle, and too much for a lot of them.

[Renegade]

That's rather odd. Usually SMF gives an update warning. Have we discovered a race condition?

Anyways, regarding your edit:

Arguments equating piracy with stealing physical items have never hit home with me.

-nosh (November 24, 2014, 03:21 AM)

Same. Because the argument there is just silly.

If you make something, let's say a movie, and I download it without paying you, you are no worse off than before I downloaded it. I have not inflicted any actual harm on you. I might be better off, but that's debatable - you might be a horrible film maker and I might lose an hour or 2 of my life.

-Renegade (November 24, 2014, 05:51 AM)

Seriously? That's such a sloppy bit of 'logic' (more like circular justification) that I'd think it was written by some government.
 (see attachment in previous post)
 

-40hz (November 24, 2014, 06:55 AM)

How is it circular? Sloppy? Yes. But circular? No.

[40hz]

How is it circular?

-Renegade (November 24, 2014, 07:12 AM)

Umm...

You are not harmed because I have said: I have not harmed you?

 

[Renegade]

How is it circular?

-Renegade (November 24, 2014, 07:12 AM)

Umm...

You are not harmed because I have said: I have not harmed you?

 

-40hz (November 24, 2014, 07:19 AM)

That's not circular reasoning.

THIS is great circular reasoning ;)

Let's outline this with a fictitious example.

First, let's imagine Stephen and he's seen my software, Guitar & Drum Trainer. He's working on a particularly difficult piece, and figures that he could use some help with it, so he downloads the trial. He uses it, then it expires. He goes to The Pirate Bay and downloads it so he can continue to use it.

Stephen wasn't going to buy a license anyways, so in what way have I been harmed?

Pretty simple. I haven't.

I haven't suffered any harm at all. None. Zero. Nadda.

Stephen hasn't taken anything from me. I still have exactly what I had before he downloaded GDT, and I'm no worse off.

Now, I'd surely love for Stephen to buy a license, as I'd love for anyone to buy a license.

Second, let's imagine that instead, Stephen downloads the trial, it expires, he doesn't buy a license (which he wasn't going to anyways), and then he goes out and downloads Audacity where he can get a small amount of the functionality of GDT with a lot of effort.

In that case, I doubt there's anyone (sane) that would say that Stephen has harmed me.

But what is the difference between the first and second scenario?

In both cases I don't get anything. So, that's easy.

In the first case, Stephen gets to work with highly functional software that let's him focus more on his music than on farting around with software settings.

In the second case, Stephen has to fart around with software settings and deal with distractions that take away from his music.

Stephen is better off in scenario 1 compared to scenario 2.

But neither scenario makes a lick of difference to me.

Or does it???

Scenario 1 may provide enough of an advantage for Stephen that he goes on to produce something that he wouldn't have in scenario 2. That may positively affect other people, and in a tiny way, my life might be better because of that "butterfly effect". But, that's just wild speculation.

Stephen does not harm me by downloading my software from The Pirate Bay and then using it.

[wraith808]

Stephen and he's seen my software, Guitar & Drum Trainer. He's working on a particularly difficult piece, and figures that he could use some help with it, so he downloads the trial. He uses it, then it expires. He goes to The Pirate Bay and downloads it so he can continue to use it.

Stephen wasn't going to buy a license anyways, so in what way have I been harmed?

Pretty simple. I haven't.

I haven't suffered any harm at all. None. Zero. Nadda.

-Renegade (November 25, 2014, 10:09 AM)

I think that's where the circular reasoning comes in, and is left out in your equation.  You say that you've not suffered any harm, which is correct from your perspective- but does Stephen have the right to determine that?  Though he says he wasn't going to buy... future need can coerce someone into buying something that they were not going to, i.e. he doesn't get it from pirate bay, comes across a real need for it that he doesn't have right now... and purchases it.

Not saying that I agree with anything in regards to the viability of the argument, just pointing out a big argument that's ignored in many discussions.

Also, for pirating for 'preview', what's fair use?  One of the arguments (and I've made it before) is that demos and such are *totally* different than gameplay.  That's one of the reasons I stopped even trying demos- the amount of effort on my side to see a marketing version of the software wasn't worth it- demos should be IMO time limited or progression limited versions of the true software.  But that's a different argument.... that doesn't speak to my root question... what's considered 'fair use'?  I play the whole thing and decide I didn't like it?  Or I didn't like the ending... and at that point, what real incentive do you have to pay after the fact?

I was a pirate in the old days... down to even cracking a few myself (though I never released them).  I didn't see anything wrong with it... after all, I wasn't stealing anything.  My change came because of getting into content creation when I realized more intimately that real effort was involved- this wasn't just some bits and bytes, but represented part of someone's life.

This isn't to say anything about piracy itself, other than I couldn't in good conscience continue the practice.  And in all truth, I haven't missed it.  I think that neither side has it completely right or completely wrong, truthfully.  And that's just like most things in life, I suppose.

[KynloStephen66515]

Further to what I said above:

Piracy, for me at least, is something I do.  Yes I do pay for a lot of games, movies, music and software (I do enjoy having a physical collection) but (again, I can only speak for myself) 99% f those purchases have been made only after first pirating.  Some would call listening to music via Youtube as piracy...because the content creator isn't selling you the music and isn't getting any income from it (AbBlocker = No Revenue for that person).

That brings me to another point...

If we use Ad Blockers...is that classified as piracy?  I mean...These websites that serve ads see that as their primary form of income and a way of you paying them for seeing that content...but if I cannot see those ads...then am I technically stealing content?

[wraith808]

If we use Ad Blockers...is that classified as piracy?  I mean...These websites that serve ads see that as their primary form of income and a way of you paying them for seeing that content...but if I cannot see those ads...then am I technically stealing content?

-Stephen66515 (November 25, 2014, 12:09 PM)

I'd say that connection is sketchy at best, IMO.  Ads are not the price that the people are placing on content, it is the act of trying to monetize visits to the site.  If there was a paywall over the content- yes, getting past that would be removing the pay requirement to see the content, but in the other case, they're trying to get money from your visit, even as they attempt to direct you to visit (linkbait, etc).

[40hz]

@Ren - I know a lot of aspiring young musicians that could benefit greatly from your GDT app who either can't a afford (or can't be bothered) to buy a license for it. If I decided to broadband a cracked version of your GDT out to all and sundry - and encourage them to do the same - do you maintain you have not been harmed in any way? And if so, are you suggesting it's ok by you to do it? And that I should feel free to do so? (kidding)

Because if that's the case, why trial or license it at all? Why not just put it out there with a "donation requested" button and call it a day?

I'm missing something...

That, or you're the only person I know running a business who doesn't take opportunity cost/revenue factors into consideration. And more power to you if you can afford to do that. That's probably worth a Nobel Prize in economics if you can do a mathematical proof of how that's "a good thing."

(Provided it held up under peer review of course.  )

[40hz]

If we use Ad Blockers...is that classified as piracy?  I mean...These websites that serve ads see that as their primary form of income and a way of you paying them for seeing that content...but if I cannot see those ads...then am I technically stealing content?

-Stephen66515 (November 25, 2014, 12:09 PM)

FWIW some sites do say exactly that - and refuse to load if they detect an ad blocker at work.

I voluntarily disable ad blocking on many sites I visit where I know they're depending on ad revenue for their continued operation. However. I'd be happier paying a reasonable subscription fee and skip the ads since 'offer-acceptance-tender' is a lot cleaner a way to do business than a quid pro quo. That said, I'll also stop visiting them if their ad stream becomes obnoxious. There's an implied social contract to this arrangement. I'm good with that.

[KynloStephen66515]

If we use Ad Blockers...is that classified as piracy?  I mean...These websites that serve ads see that as their primary form of income and a way of you paying them for seeing that content...but if I cannot see those ads...then am I technically stealing content?

-Stephen66515 (November 25, 2014, 12:09 PM)

FWIW some sites do say exactly that - and refuse to load if they detect an ad blocker at work.

I voluntarily disable ad blocking on many sites I visit where I know they're depending on ad revenue for their continued operation. However. I'd be happier paying a reasonable subscription fee and skip the ads since 'offer-acceptance-tender' is a lot cleaner a way to do business than a quid pro quo. That said, I'll also stop visiting them if their ad stream becomes obnoxious. There's an implied social contract to this arrangement. I'm good with that.

-40hz (November 25, 2014, 02:42 PM)

Personally I also do unblock ads on some websites (Such as Imgur) which I use a lot and I accept that they have to cover the costs somehow.  I also actively click any ads that I find remotely interesting on order to send a few pennies their way.

I would do the same here at DC if ads were served if I am honest

[Renegade]

(Provided it held up under peer-to-peer review of course.  )

-40hz (November 25, 2014, 02:30 PM)

FTFY.