Author Topic: Am I the only person that has a real big problem with software like this? (Read 58909 times)

wraith808 · « **Reply #75 on:** October 07, 2013, 10:22 AM »

My children know they have absolutely no expectation of privacy when it comes to the Internet, their phones, the television Etc. I monitor them, and then counsel them. After so long being monitored, it has actually had the effect of creating trust and respect between my children and I, as well as teaching right from wrong. When I was a child, we didn't have the devices and access we do now, yet I still was monitored and had no privacy. As a child it got under my skin due to the fact our maturing brains work that way, but taught me the right lessons. As an adult I see the benefits and reasons for monitoring.

I can honestly say, after watching what they do for so long, that I monitor them now more for keeping them away from links or people that specifically prey on children. Whether it be for monetary reasons or for other, more sick reasons.
-y0himba (October 07, 2013, 08:36 AM)

You have said it a lot better than I apparently have. This is exactly what I'm talking about.

While it may "take a village" to raise a child (and I have my doubts about that ~~theory~~ folk mantra as well) it certainly doesn't require software and an electronic device to do it.
-40hz (October 07, 2013, 09:25 AM)

I hate that saying.
-Renegade (October 07, 2013, 09:50 AM)

I hate the fact that it is a saying and a quip.. but I can agree with the sentiment.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #76 on:** October 07, 2013, 11:59 AM »

When I was a child, we didn't have the devices and access we do now, yet I still was monitored and had no privacy. As a child it got under my skin due to the fact our maturing brains work that way, but taught me the right lessons. As an adult I see the benefits and reasons for monitoring.
-y0himba (October 07, 2013, 08:36 AM)

I believe that's referred to as a behavioral cycle, where certain patterns of activity are experience over an extended period of time so that they become perceived as "normal" and are then repeated as opportunity presents.

Just because something starts with the best and purest of intentions doesn't mean it is going to end well. Because these are precisely the type of intentions the road to hell is paved with.

People who are taught the benefits of monitoring and being monitored will be more receptive to additional protective steps. Little Sally had a tracker and it helped find her in the woods. Grandma had a tracker and it helped us finder her when she wandered of in a snow storm ... Maybe I should have a tracker so I could get help faster if I ever have a flat! ...Because it always safest for anyone if people know where they're at. And since it's so hard to remember to carry and charge a cell phone, we can just have ourselves chipped so the beacon can always be on as it's powered by our bodies...and can keep track of our health too! Hell we should just let the police handle the whole thing because they're good at things like that, and are already equipped for rapid response ... After all they're here to help us ... Right?

Sure looks like a frog in a pot to me.

40hz · « **Reply #77 on:** October 07, 2013, 12:17 PM »

You can teach a child to accept anything as "normal" if you get to them early enough, pound it into their heads long enough, and make it clear to them that they are constantly being watched and can expect punishment if the slightest show of reluctance or disobedience is detected.

The travesty of "child soldiers" is proof enough of that, as are those state sponsored "youth movements" that crop under most repressive regimes shortly after they attain power.

Electronic monitoring is a tool. As is the taking away of "any expectation of personal privacy." While it may make some people feel "safer" or "more responsible" in their duty to society and family, it is also instilling a potentially hazardous meme in the mind of someone who is too young to question it before it becomes a part of their accepted "reality.".

Slippery slope indeed.

wraith808 · « **Reply #78 on:** October 07, 2013, 12:58 PM »

Electronic monitoring is a tool. As is the taking away of "any expectation of personal privacy." While it may make some people feel "safer" or "more responsible" in their duty to society and family, it is also instilling a potentially hazardous meme in the mind of someone who is too young to question it before it becomes a part of their accepted "reality.".
-40hz (October 07, 2013, 12:17 PM)

Not if done correctly. I had very little privacy when I was a child from my parents, but I had it from everyone else. In fact, was a private child and am a private person. These things had no bearing on each other.

40hz · « **Reply #79 on:** October 07, 2013, 01:14 PM »

Not if done correctly.
-wraith808 (October 07, 2013, 12:58 PM)

That's a pretty big qualifier IMHO!

Sorry. I'm not that sanguine an individual.

wraith808 · « **Reply #80 on:** October 07, 2013, 03:06 PM »

What bloody?

But seriously, after all I've told you about how I handle things, after all that y0himba told you about how he handles things, after valuing the ability of the parent to make a decision for good or bad and do what they are supposed to do...

...you're willing to just discard it out of hand based on possibilities?

Hmmm

40hz · « **Reply #81 on:** October 07, 2013, 03:45 PM »

^I think you're taking what I said personally.

I have no problem with you or any of the others here. But thats a small percentage of the how many million parents out there?

But even with that, I think bugging a kid's or personal acquaintance's phone is a big mistake and sends the entirely wrong message.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #82 on:** October 07, 2013, 05:28 PM »

But seriously, after all I've told you about how I handle things, after all that y0himba told you about how he handles things, after valuing the ability of the parent to make a decision for good or bad and do what they are supposed to do...
-wraith808 (October 07, 2013, 03:06 PM)

Hay man, it's all good if it's working for you, but there are 2 sides to everything. I can think of half a dozen or more names of kids that I died while I was growing up as they finally got out of a repressive monitoring oriented culture that encouraged strict child control. Because when they (the children) finally realized that for the first time...there really was nobody "watching" ... They handled it badly.

So you have my sincerest wish that this does indeed work as well as you have it planned. But please understand that I have seen first hand just how badly it can go.

wraith808 · « **Reply #83 on:** October 07, 2013, 06:52 PM »

^I think you're taking what I said personally.

I have no problem with you or any of the others here. But thats a small percentage of the how many million parents out there?

But even with that, I think bugging a kid's or personal acquaintance's phone is a big mistake and sends the entirely wrong message.

-40hz (October 07, 2013, 03:45 PM)

No... that's why I started with a joke

But it seems that with counter-examples it's rather strange that there is *no* give... sort of like the people on the other side of other arguments.

wraith808 · « **Reply #84 on:** October 07, 2013, 06:54 PM »

But seriously, after all I've told you about how I handle things, after all that y0himba told you about how he handles things, after valuing the ability of the parent to make a decision for good or bad and do what they are supposed to do...
-wraith808 (October 07, 2013, 03:06 PM)

Hay man, it's all good if it's working for you, but there are 2 sides to everything. I can think of half a dozen or more names of kids that I died while I was growing up as they finally got out of a repressive monitoring oriented culture that encouraged strict child control. Because when they (the children) finally realized that for the first time...there really was nobody "watching" ... They handled it badly.

So you have my sincerest wish that this does indeed work as well as you have it planned. But please understand that I have seen first hand just how badly it can go.
-Stoic Joker (October 07, 2013, 05:28 PM)

I guess my thing is what Ren said earlier- it varies based on the child and the situation. And for as many instances as I've seen, and as many as you've seen, it's just a drop in the bucket.

40hz · « **Reply #85 on:** October 07, 2013, 07:15 PM »

But it seems that with counter-examples it's rather strange that there is *no* give... sort of like the people on the other side of other arguments.
-wraith808 (October 07, 2013, 06:52 PM)

Oh...well...that's probably because I think the entire premise behind this product is fundamentally wrong on so many levels that I can't see a ray of light anywhere in it.

But I'm a child of the counter-culture era (even if I never really was a part of it) so I guess an occasional lapse into intransigence is to be expected from my kind.

Let those who can understand this, understand this.

Renegade · « **Reply #86 on:** October 08, 2013, 05:23 AM »

Y'know... I was brain farting, and it occurred to me that there's a bit of a disconnect in this thread (maybe more than 1).

Specifically, the difference between "monitoring" and "logging".

From the techie-type perspective, if I'm monitoring something, I've got that piece of software running and I'm consulting it every so often.

Logging on the other hand is completely different. I just log stuff and forget about it. Then, if there's a problem, I go back and check to find out a bit about the problem and hopefully get some idea about how to solve it.

Does that make any sense? I don't feel like typing anymore.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #87 on:** October 08, 2013, 06:45 AM »

But seriously, after all I've told you about how I handle things, after all that y0himba told you about how he handles things, after valuing the ability of the parent to make a decision for good or bad and do what they are supposed to do...
-wraith808 (October 07, 2013, 03:06 PM)

Hay man, it's all good if it's working for you, but there are 2 sides to everything. I can think of half a dozen or more names of kids that I died while I was growing up as they finally got out of a repressive monitoring oriented culture that encouraged strict child control. Because when they (the children) finally realized that for the first time...there really was nobody "watching" ... They handled it badly.

So you have my sincerest wish that this does indeed work as well as you have it planned. But please understand that I have seen first hand just how badly it can go.
-Stoic Joker (October 07, 2013, 05:28 PM)

I guess my thing is what Ren said earlier- it varies based on the child and the situation. And for as many instances as I've seen, and as many as you've seen, it's just a drop in the bucket.
-wraith808 (October 07, 2013, 06:54 PM)

Now that one I'll give you.

But I'm also in the same boat with 40hz, because we're both from the same - Screw the man - generation.

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #88 on:** October 08, 2013, 08:33 AM »

But I'm also in the same boat with 40hz, because we're both from the same - Screw the man - generation.
-Stoic Joker (October 08, 2013, 06:45 AM)

Haha! Yay linkages!

Because see my "concept posts" in NANY! I'm designing the software that will do that for us!

"Don't make the Voters angry. You wouldn't like them when they share votes when they are angry!

Heh sorry if I'm a little chattery about this, but it is my Million Dollar Dream for next year! Because it also changes all forum discussions (for me at least!) forever.

Because for any topic, you get opinions. So then maybe with a shorthand and/or attachment files, you can ask "so what does your opinion mean on who you want to vote for?" It brings back any concept ever into the people's hands of what one power that hasn't been taken away yet!

It's also a filter. If you're busy you can skip 35 posts and watch for someone's Projected Vote notation. So of course y'all have great points. But in a busy moment the Projected Votes are *numbers*.

-0.2368% Ted Cruz! : )

40hz · « **Reply #89 on:** October 08, 2013, 08:39 AM »

Logging on the other hand is completely different. I just log stuff and forget about it. Then, if there's a problem, I go back and check to find out a bit about the problem and hopefully get some idea about how to solve it.

Does that make any sense? I don't feel like typing anymore.
-Renegade (October 08, 2013, 05:23 AM)

Umm...

I think it makes complete sense to the people behind PRISM over at the NSA. That's pretty much been their argument all along.

They keep insisting they're not spying on Americans. They're just collecting metadata - and they only really look at what they collect if they think there's a problem.

Spying...monitoring...collecting...logging...

It's all word games that try to make exceptionally fine grained (and often wholly imaginary) distinctions based on the intent behind the act. But the mechanisms behind the act itself are the same no matter what the original intent. Which is why I consider what this product does to be categorically wrong.

The mere existence of a technology argues for its use. And justifications (limited only by our imagination to concoct 'what-if' scenarios) soon follow.

So while it's true that technology can be used for good or ill, some technologies have a greater potential to commit harm. And more to the point, some technologies provide capabilities that almost beg to be abused.

Surveillance technologies beg to be abused. And if the Snowden revelations have shown anything about this technology, they've shown us that the temptation to 'abuse and extend' is apparently too great to resist. Especially when it comes to the people most entrusted not to abuse these capabilities.

Surveillance technology is a drug. And addiction, in the guise of "mission creep" (that clever euphemism for abuse and violation of trust) inevitably follows. My company made a conscious decision not to get involved in any of this technology several years ago. But we have worked in places where it was heavily employed so we have direct experience in seeing where it all too often leads.

We may have lost some business because of that decision.

But we also saved our company's soul.

Worth it IMHO.

wraith808 · « **Reply #90 on:** October 08, 2013, 09:19 AM »

Surveillance technologies beg to be abused. And if the Snowden revelations have shown anything about this technology, they've shown us that the temptation to 'abuse and extend' is apparently too great to resist. Especially when it comes to the people most entrusted not to abuse these capabilities.

Surveillance technology is a drug. And addiction, in the guise of "mission creep" (that clever euphemism for abuse and violation of trust) inevitably follows.
-40hz (October 08, 2013, 08:39 AM)

Power corrupts and such?

But that's given as a truism (as you did here), and I think it still hinges on something that hasn't been addressed as the difference between monitoring such as the NSA and outside forces and monitoring that some people are advocating here.

Respect vs. Disrespect
Interest vs. Self-Interest

If you respect the person, and have their interests at heart, then the corrupting influence won't come into play. That comes into play when there is a measure of control rather than guidance needed. At this point in my son's life, the only thing I do is ... nothing. There's a GPS in his cell phone, but I've only accessed it once in the situation that I described- the first time he rode with someone else (also a minor) to a city about 1.5 hours away. And that was just to make sure that he was in the area since he hadn't called and not hung up half-way there since the phone went straight to voicemail. And we had a talk about it when he got home, and he knew that I'd used the GPS and why, and what he could do in the future to mitigate the circumstances.

This is down from having all sorts of things in place from internet filtering to keeping track of the games that he played and the videos and music he was exposed to and limiting his xbox and computer playtime and all sorts of things. As he began to be able to make those choices, those things fell away. Why? Because he was getting older, and has the right to make those decisions and they won't interfere with our primary goal- to make sure that he is equipped to be able to assess and make his own choices, and deal with the consequences of those choices.

So I think that (like many other things) it's not the technology that's to blame. It's the people.

(and it's sad that my joke fell flat on everyone! especially considering that there are some firefly aficionados here. And that firefly love of the themes should show where I come down on the fence in all reality...)

40hz · « **Reply #91 on:** October 08, 2013, 10:48 AM »

I think that with the direction US society and politics has taken post-911, it clearly shows the notion that "power corrupts" can hardly be characterized as a truism anymore.

At least not with a straight face

mouser · « **Reply #92 on:** October 08, 2013, 11:00 AM »

please keep politics out of this thread.

wraith808 · « **Reply #93 on:** October 08, 2013, 11:49 AM »

please keep politics out of this thread.
-mouser (October 08, 2013, 11:00 AM)

And i think that's the point. This thread is not about politics, nor about political abuses. This software is not even intended as such. But because of abuses by those in power, any uses of such things are conflated with the morass of political arguments about such issues.

Does this software (and others of its ilk) have potential for abuse? Well, the answer to that is pretty obvious. But does the existence of such software necessarily equate to it being abused in such a way in any given use case? I don't think that's as clear, nor true.

40hz · « **Reply #94 on:** October 08, 2013, 01:28 PM »

please keep politics out of this thread.
-mouser (October 08, 2013, 11:00 AM)

Whether by accident or (more likely) design, politics now permeates every facet of our lives. Even if we'd rather it didn't. I therefor think references to our political environment (since it factors so hugely into education, child rearing, privacy concerns, our legal environment, societal structure, and the pubic sense of morality, etc.) is unavoidable in a discussion like this one.

In light of that, I'll recuse myself from this discussion going forward.

Carry on!

wraith808 · « **Reply #95 on:** October 08, 2013, 02:05 PM »

In light of that, I'll recuse myself from this discussion going forward.
-40hz (October 08, 2013, 01:28 PM)

Well that's a downer since you're the one that started it.

Conversation ended more surely than the invocation of Godwin's Law.

40hz · « **Reply #96 on:** October 08, 2013, 02:35 PM »

In light of that, I'll recuse myself from this discussion going forward.
-40hz (October 08, 2013, 01:28 PM)

Well that's a downer since you're the one that started it. Conversation ended more surely than the invocation of Godwin's Law.
-wraith808 (October 08, 2013, 02:05 PM)

It shouldn't have to.

I tend to look at the larger societal picture every time I look at technology. Because in my mind, discussing a technology divorced from the user (and the society he/she lives in) is meaningless.

Just because I think about and see it that way doesn't mean everyone else has to.

And mouser has said he prefers political aspects be kept to a minimum unless you want take your discussion out on the back porch, away from the family dinner table.

I can respect that.

Renegade · « **Reply #97 on:** October 08, 2013, 03:32 PM »

I think it makes complete sense to the people behind PRISM over at the NSA. That's pretty much been their argument all along.

They keep insisting they're not spying on Americans. They're just collecting metadata - and they only really look at what they collect if they think there's a problem.
-40hz (October 08, 2013, 08:39 AM)

You do have a point.

I would only ask how much difference there is between the NSA/government and parents when it comes to actually caring. I somehow doubt that the former really cares about people, whereas the latter do care about their children. This for me is an important distinction. i.e. What are the motivating factors behind the behaviour? (Again, I'm coming out with my Kantian leanings.)

Renegade · « **Reply #98 on:** October 08, 2013, 03:36 PM »

I tend to look at the larger societal picture every time I look at technology. Because in my mind, discussing a technology divorced from its the user (and the society he/she lives in) is meaningless.
-40hz (October 08, 2013, 02:35 PM)

Again, more good points that I certainly wouldn't disagree with. You're quite correct.

But as I just mentioned above, are you divorcing the underlying motivations behind the behaviour and their intended purposes? (Well, I didn't mention purposes above, but hopefully it could be inferred.)

App103 made similar points as you about the slippery slope of Pavlovian conditioning (though she didn't phrase it as such).

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #99 on:** October 08, 2013, 03:57 PM »

I would only ask how much difference there is between the NSA/government and parents when it comes to actually caring. I somehow doubt that the former really cares about people, whereas the latter do care about their children.
-Renegade (October 08, 2013, 03:32 PM)

I'd say none. These things always start with a desire to care for/protect X. But than as circumstances extenuate more stringent measures are needed. So before anybody realizes what's happening an NSA class invasion is born.

Baby steps and good intentions...that, is precisely how anything goes to shit.