Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage. (Read 388875 times)

app103 · « **Reply #50 on:** June 28, 2013, 03:44 PM »

Maybe, but I'll go and say it's not even the nukes anymore - those are so "old and busted" via mutual destruction.

More dangerous is the crispy new trend to through out the laws we have, invent new ones, and then break those* to get whatever the desired result is!

(Seen what Scalia's been up to on the Supes-Court lately!?)
-TaoPhoenix (June 28, 2013, 03:08 PM)

A country that would use nukes against an enemy is a country that will do anything to get their way, with no regard for the lives of innocent civilians. Does a small country with not much in the way of defense really want to find out what "anything" means?

Sometimes you don't stand up to a large, strong bully. Sometimes the best course of action is to give them your lunch money or whatever else they ask for, especially when you don't have a bunch of strong friends around to back you up.

wraith808 · « **Reply #51 on:** June 28, 2013, 04:13 PM »

A country that would use nukes against an enemy is a country that will do anything to get their way, with no regard for the lives of innocent civilians. Does a small country with not much in the way of defense really want to find out what "anything" means?
-app103 (June 28, 2013, 03:44 PM)

That was a different time, with different stakes. The geopolitical arena is much different now, and with the advent of the fact that the US is not the only nuclear power, there is definitely a different playing field. And, nuclear weapons are really a weapon whose time has past as has been correctly stated. The difference in conventional and non-conventional weapons is not as much as it was at the end of WW2.

app103 · « **Reply #52 on:** June 28, 2013, 04:41 PM »

A country that would use nukes against an enemy is a country that will do anything to get their way, with no regard for the lives of innocent civilians. Does a small country with not much in the way of defense really want to find out what "anything" means?
-app103 (June 28, 2013, 03:44 PM)

That was a different time, with different stakes. The geopolitical arena is much different now, and with the advent of the fact that the US is not the only nuclear power, there is definitely a different playing field. And, nuclear weapons are really a weapon whose time has past as has been correctly stated. The difference in conventional and non-conventional weapons is not as much as it was at the end of WW2.
-wraith808 (June 28, 2013, 04:13 PM)

So, you are saying that the US is not a big bully that will do anything to get its way?

I never said the US would consider using nuclear weapons today. And I never said that they wouldn't. And I am fully aware of the difference between the conventional and non-conventional weapons of today and those of the past. But look at more recent history to see what happens when the US doesn't like you, or you have something they (or their corporations) want. The US gets what it wants, by whatever means necessary, with little to no regard for civilian life. This was first demonstrated with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and in many other ways, since. Who really wants to set themselves up to be the next small country to get bullied by the US?

And yes, the US is still a bully. If they were not, this thread (and some others) would not exist.

wraith808 · « **Reply #53 on:** June 28, 2013, 05:17 PM »

So, you are saying that the US is not a big bully that will do anything to get its way?

I never said the US would consider using nuclear weapons today.
-app103 (June 28, 2013, 04:41 PM)

Those two are opposed. If they would do anything, they would consider using nuclear weapons.

But your statement made it seem as though because they had used nuclear weapons that is what the intimidation factor is. My disagreement is based on that.

And truthfully, there is no country that is purely internal facing and that doesn't act in its own best interest. It's a matter of leverage. When the UK had the position of power, they used it. Russia has done the same. It doesn't excuse the actions of the US, but to single them out such pejoratives makes it seem like they are the perpetrators and the others are innocent. That's unfortunately not the way the world works.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #54 on:** June 28, 2013, 07:15 PM »

Doesn't alter the fact that the US has been continuously at war somewhere in the world since the second world war - and only ever to further their own financial needs - there is very little ideological content these days just economics. ut note those economic considerations don't benefit the American people - only the uber-rich puppet-masters.

The sensible thing to have done after Snowden's revelations would have been for the administration to through their hands up in horror and start a genuine investigation into illegal surveillance. At least then they wouldn't have shown their hand as the designers of all this crap. They should have given Snowden a reward, patted him on the back, put him on the dollar bill as a national standard for honesty and democracy and then quietly go back to business as usual.

Instead their petty minded, corrupt lying ways means that ultimately at best he will spend the rest of his life under voluntary house arrest and at worst they may even execute him through legal trickery or more likely covertly. It is now a matter of pride not to let his public service be seen for what it is.

"Land of the free, home of the brave" not for a long time outside the usual political doublespeak.

I don't dislike American's - every American I have met has been friendly, kind and considerate (and mostly appalled at what the US political system has become) - but your democracy is as dead as Europe's. All this taking democracy to the world is nothing but horseshit to cover up the real smell.

Tinman57 · « **Reply #55 on:** June 28, 2013, 08:03 PM »

Us Americans aren't too happy with our government either. In fact, most Americans KNOW that our government has lost it's way and caters to the almighty dollar (Corporations). A lot of us know that the U.S. isn't as "free" as it claims to be, but then there's all the sheeple that think the U.S. is protecting them from all the bad guys with all the spying laws and it's a good thing. You know, idiots..... We vote what we think is going to be a good, honest politician, and as soon as he/she gets into office they start making the wrong decisions just like the rest. Sometimes I think they get brainwashed shortly after they are sworn into office.

For the most part, Americans are good people, but we have way too many bad people as well. What really hurts the American image is our ambassador's in uniform, the military. I've seen all too well how a lot of the military troops (inner city types) go to other countries riding down the street chanting "America is #1" and basically acting like school kid bullies. I've seen them drunk in the streets taking a piss on the sidewalk and talking trash to any female that happens by. This is where most foreign (to the U.S.) people get their first in-person impressions of Americans, and it's not a very good first impression.....

40hz · « **Reply #56 on:** June 28, 2013, 09:22 PM »

To be perfectly blunt, I haven't seen where any of the so-called "Western Democracies" have behaved in any manner so exemplary that they are now in a position to honestly point fingers at anyone other than themselves.

From my perspective, the entire "grand experiment" that began with the European Enlightenment and arguably culminated with the creation of the United States, which was AFAIK the first nation that was consciously designed to be a society that derived the authority for its very existence from the will of its people alone.

It was a beautiful and lofty idea.

Unfortunately, all the old demons from our past: the will to power; greed; provincialism; superstition; ignorance; hatred; cruelty...the list is long, weren't abolished just because some individuals began to look up from what was directly in front of them and try get us to elevate our awareness, as a species, up a notch or two.

I think it's still too soon to say that this experiment has definitely and conclusively failed. But it's certainly at a crisis point. One where decisions are going to need to be made - and painful lessons learned -if it is going to continue.

I'd like to think the widespread loathing and anger many are feeling towards our key social institutions (i.e. state, church, business, family) over their absolute betrayal of principle, and the people they are supposed to serve, is the start of a large scale social 'correction.' One that is going to play out primarily in North America and Europe. But whose ramifications are going to be felt globally.

Time will tell if it is a rebirth or not.

There is (supposedly) an old Chinese curse that goes: May you live in historically "interesting" times.

Well...we do. And I intend to make the most of it.

I plan on making a career out of being a royal pain in the ass.

wraith808 · « **Reply #57 on:** June 28, 2013, 09:58 PM »

To be perfectly blunt, I haven't seen where any of the so-called "Western Democracies" have behaved in any manner so exemplary that they are now in a position to honestly point fingers at anyone other than themselves.
-40hz (June 28, 2013, 09:22 PM)

This is my point. To call someone a bully implies that there is a victim in the situation. The only victim in these situations are the people. The governments themselves would do EXACTLY THE SAME if they had the power. And to lose sight of that is to lose sight of the fact that they are all playing games. That's it and that's all.

40hz · « **Reply #58 on:** June 29, 2013, 11:47 AM »

Just imagine how much we'll know tomorrow...

...if we're strong enough.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #59 on:** June 29, 2013, 01:07 PM »

"A person is smart, people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals." Was my favorite quote from the whole movie.

wraith808 · « **Reply #60 on:** June 29, 2013, 03:20 PM »

And as we talk about games: Biden asks Ecuador president to nix Snowden asylum

Note this quoted part:

At the same time, Correa rebuked the Obama administration for hypocrisy, invoking the case of two bankers, brothers Roberto and William Isaias, whom Ecuador is seeking to extradite from the U.S.

Where's the victim, again? As a passingly famous Frenchman said when that particular country was on top, “We are either kings or pawns of men”

As an aside, I do believe this is one of the reasons that Snowden is still where he is. Let the so-called kings play their games, and watch. The waiting game won't serve him forever, but better to wait for a while than make yourself a pawn.

wraith808 · « **Reply #61 on:** July 01, 2013, 11:24 PM »

The next move has been made: WikiLeaks: Snowden requests asylum

And a statement from the man himself.

Statement from Edward Snowden in Moscow

Monday July 1, 21:40 UTC

One week ago I left Hong Kong after it became clear that my freedom and safety were under threat for revealing the truth. My continued liberty has been owed to the efforts of friends new and old, family, and others who I have never met and probably never will. I trusted them with my life and they returned that trust with a faith in me for which I will always be thankful.

On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic "wheeling and dealing" over my case. Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.

This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile. These are the old, bad tools of political aggression. Their purpose is to frighten, not me, but those who would come after me.

For decades the United States of America has been one of the strongest defenders of the human right to seek asylum. Sadly, this right, laid out and voted for by the U.S. in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is now being rejected by the current government of my country. The Obama administration has now adopted the strategy of using citizenship as a weapon. Although I am convicted of nothing, it has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person. Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum.

In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be.

I am unbowed in my convictions and impressed at the efforts taken by so many.

Edward Joseph Snowden

Monday 1st July 2013

4wd · « **Reply #62 on:** July 01, 2013, 11:47 PM »

The next move has been made: WikiLeaks: Snowden requests asylum
-wraith808 (July 01, 2013, 11:24 PM)

Is that a geo-locked site?

I just get this: http://hosted.ap.org...ecials/bluepage.html

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #63 on:** July 02, 2013, 05:51 AM »

The next move has been made: WikiLeaks: Snowden requests asylum
-wraith808 (July 01, 2013, 11:24 PM)

Is that a geo-locked site?

I just get this: http://hosted.ap.org...ecials/bluepage.html
-4wd (July 01, 2013, 11:47 PM)

I don't think so, I couldn't get it either. I'm betting they moved it!

Try this copy from the Wisconsin Journal Sentinel:

http://hosted.ap.org...amp;TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

dr_andus · « **Reply #64 on:** July 03, 2013, 05:55 AM »

Wow, it's an eye-opener how easily European countries can be cowed into compliance by the US, despite the synthetic outrage about being spied upon...

Bolivia has accused European countries of an "act of aggression" for refusing to allow its presidential jet into their airspace, amid suggestions US fugitive Edward Snowden was on board.

Bolivia said France, Portugal, Spain and Italy had blocked the plane from flying over their territory.

It was diverted to Vienna where it was reportedly searched.

This is incredible... How does this work? Was that simply legal compliance with some Interpol request or some behind-the-scenes political arm-twisting? I thought France didn't even have an extradition treaty with the US, so what was the big deal about letting a presidential plane pass through its airspace, even if it might have had a fugitive on board who France etc. have nothing to do with?

tomos · « **Reply #65 on:** July 03, 2013, 06:30 AM »

^I'm not sure that they're "cowed" - they've always pretty much just played along with most of what the US wants. But that *is* shocking - and they searched the plane in Vienna!!! Oddly, the Bolivians deny this

- I wonder do they consider it an embarrasment that it happened. I mean why would Austria say the plane was searched if it wasn't $:-\$

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #66 on:** July 03, 2013, 07:02 AM »

Any chance that this made President Evo Morales mad enough to grant Snowden asylum out of spite? Hell I'll stick a Bolivian flag in my front yard if he does that!

40hz · « **Reply #67 on:** July 03, 2013, 07:21 AM »

I'm not sure that they're "cowed"
-tomos (July 03, 2013, 06:30 AM)

No?

Hmm...

-------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Office of the President - United States of America

To: All Member Nations of the EU and South America

Subject: Snowden

Here's the deal:

The US would consider it a gesture of good faith that you neither offer nor assist Mr. Snowden in obtaining political asylum, nor grant him free passage through your airspace.

In return, our NSA agrees not to go public with all the information it has meticulously compiled on all the dirty dealings of your government - as well as the frankly criminal "activities" and questionable "lifestyles" of many of your elected officials.

Do we have a deal? No need to directly respond to this offer. Actions speak louder than words.

We'll be watching!

Thanking you in advance for your understanding and cooperation.

P.S. Remember - what comes around goes around - and one hand washes the other!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think it went something like that. $:-\$

dr_andus · « **Reply #68 on:** July 03, 2013, 07:24 AM »

^I'm not sure that they're "cowed" - they've always pretty much just played along with most of what the US wants.
-tomos (July 03, 2013, 06:30 AM)

I guess you're right. Europeans didn't seem to have a problem with CIA planes zipping around in their airspace with "extraordinarily rendered" people on board, sometimes kidnapped from their own streets.

wraith808 · « **Reply #69 on:** July 03, 2013, 08:12 AM »

I think it went something like that.
-40hz (July 03, 2013, 07:21 AM)

That's classic

And probably true

dr_andus · « **Reply #70 on:** July 03, 2013, 11:40 AM »

Even UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon comes down on the side of the spymasters. It's as if the EU and the UN are also run by spies, whose no. 1 priority seems to be to make an example of Snowden to show what happens to spies that break the code of secrecy:

Speaking to a gathering of the foreign affairs committee of the Icelandic parliament in Reykjavik on Tuesday, Ban said that in his personal opinion "the Snowden case is something I consider to be misuse." The UN chief added that the opening up of digital communications should not be "misused in such a way as Snowden did".

wraith808 · « **Reply #71 on:** July 03, 2013, 11:46 AM »

Even UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon comes down on the side of the spymasters. It's as if the EU and the UN are also run by spies, whose no. 1 priority seems to be to make an example of Snowden to show what happens to spies that break the code of secrecy:
-dr_andus (July 03, 2013, 11:40 AM)

Bingo!

The first rule of spycraft is don't get caught. The second rule is don't play out the results in the media. Why else do you think that the conditions of Snowden's asylum in Russia were 'stop hurting the US'?

40hz · « **Reply #72 on:** July 03, 2013, 12:26 PM »

The first rule of spycraft is don't get caught.
-wraith808 (July 03, 2013, 11:46 AM)

Yes indeed. As fictional spymaster George Smiley said: You're a spy whose cover has been blown. As things stand you have only to decide whether you'd rather run to a country who will execute you, or merely put you in imprison for the rest of your life.

Spying is an ugly game. More often than not with equally ugly outcomes for its participants.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #73 on:** July 03, 2013, 01:00 PM »

Loved the - I'm sure quite accurate - letter, but..

In return, our NSA agrees not to go public with all the information it has meticulously compiled on all the dirty dealings of your government - as well as the frankly criminal "activities" and questionable "lifestyles" of many of your elected officials.
-40hz (July 03, 2013, 07:21 AM)

That has got to be a two way street. Snowden must have some of that type of info in his stash that he could use to move a bit of the leadership into his corner. He doesn't need to release it to the world ...(that could be strategically bad)... Just quietly let the key relevant people know that there are records of their last frolic...and that he'd like to help them out...'cause the seem like nice people ... But he's just, Ya know ... Needin' a bit of breathing room.

40hz · « **Reply #74 on:** July 03, 2013, 01:30 PM »

Needin' a bit of breathing room.
-Stoic Joker (July 03, 2013, 01:00 PM)

He won't get it.

As soon as they think public interest and support for Snowden has dropped enough, the US will make its move.

I'm guessing he'll be ordered to leave wherever he is very shortly. Then the plane he's on will experience "unexpected mechanical problems" that force an emergency landing in a country that either has an extradition treaty with the US - or has an "unimportant" enough local government that the SEALS can be sent in on a "T&T" (i.e. tranquilize & transport) mission.

Extra points (exchangeable for favorable trade deals and special immigration quotas) will be awarded to the nations participating in this choreography who express the best faux diplomatic outrage and/or most convincing 'human rights' hand wringing.

Breathing room?

More like a temporary stay of execution.

It's all "puppet theater" going forward. China and Russia are already out. The EU is largely cooperating with the Obama administration. South America is posturing and making a lot of noise - purely for their local politics - and not much else.

safe_image.php.png

Nope. I'm betting Mr. Snowden will be back, and in US custody, in less than six weeks.