Author Topic: Knight to queen's bishop 3 - Snowden charged with espionage. (Read 388945 times)

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #75 on:** July 03, 2013, 01:48 PM »

I'm betting he'll be in US custody in less than six weeks.
-40hz (July 03, 2013, 01:30 PM)

You're probably right ... But it just infuriates me that people can't get together and behind this thing and force the government to blink. WTF is it gonna take to get people off their asses?!? Christ we had more outrage expressed in the MSM when Janet Jackson's titty popped out FFS.

If the overlords can't be made to blink now, with something this mind-blowingly blatant...they're never going to. We might as well pack up the flag -- I'm sure they'll be making a new one soon anyhow ... Something with more red, and a scepter. -- and leave.

wraith808 · « **Reply #76 on:** July 03, 2013, 01:58 PM »

Truthfully, I don't think that he has the documents that would help get leverage. The fact that he rebuffed Russia's offer makes me think that he might be truly doing this for the reasons that he says. But even with that, at some point you have to realize that all the moves you have are bad... he really should have taken their deal once he was trapped. Their "we can't touch him... he's not in Russia" is complete fiction, and he should know that. He's at their mercy already...

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #77 on:** July 03, 2013, 11:17 PM »

I wonder who he's got advising him? Surely he can't just be doing this all alone and guessing.

But it's interesting if you rule out Russia and China and most of the Euro bloc the options get a bit thin.

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #78 on:** July 03, 2013, 11:18 PM »

...
You're probably right ... But it just infuriates me that people can't get together and behind this thing and force the government to blink. WTF is it gonna take to get people off their asses?!? Christ we had more outrage expressed in the MSM when Janet Jackson's titty popped out FFS.

If the overlords can't be made to blink now, with something this mind-blowingly blatant...they're never going to. We might as well pack up the flag -- I'm sure they'll be making a new one soon anyhow ... Something with more red, and a scepter. -- and leave.
-Stoic Joker (July 03, 2013, 01:48 PM)

But exactly how do we make them blink? They're pretty close to a lockdown.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #79 on:** July 03, 2013, 11:49 PM »

...
You're probably right ... But it just infuriates me that people can't get together and behind this thing and force the government to blink. WTF is it gonna take to get people off their asses?!? Christ we had more outrage expressed in the MSM when Janet Jackson's titty popped out FFS.

If the overlords can't be made to blink now, with something this mind-blowingly blatant...they're never going to. We might as well pack up the flag -- I'm sure they'll be making a new one soon anyhow ... Something with more red, and a scepter. -- and leave.
-Stoic Joker (July 03, 2013, 01:48 PM)

But exactly how do we make them blink? They're pretty close to a lockdown.
-TaoPhoenix (July 03, 2013, 11:18 PM)

Flood every Email server in Washington DC with messages from "We the People"... What say let Edward Snowden go, he's a true patriot and deserves a medal for reporting rampant corruption in our government.

Give Snail Mail the same treatment.

Put it on banners, billboards, and bumper stickers to make triple thick friggin sure that can't get away with saying they didn't notice.

White people suck at protesting (seriously, we do - Occupy Wall Street...Fail!), so get the African American population on board, and put them in charge (Million Man March...Hello!). The rest of us will just have to stay quiet, follow them up to the white house, and try not to do anything stupid (Occupy Wall Street - Yes I'm harping on that train wreck again.).

Now if the overloads look out the window and see several million of all of us (black/white/red/brown/yellow) together standing on the same singular point.

I'm thinking they just might blink ... or shit their pants ... either is acceptable.

dr_andus · « **Reply #80 on:** July 04, 2013, 06:55 AM »

Flood every Email server in Washington DC with messages from "We the People"... What say let Edward Snowden go, he's a true patriot and deserves a medal for reporting rampant corruption in our government.
-Stoic Joker (July 03, 2013, 11:49 PM)

Something is happening today along these lines: Mass protests planned over web NSA spying revelations

Some of the web's biggest names have backed mass protests over internet surveillance carried out by the US National Security Agency (NSA).

The Restore the Fourth movement - referring to the US constitution's fourth amendment - said it wants to end "unconstitutional surveillance".

Reddit, Mozilla and Wordpress are among the big web names backing the action, due to take place on Thursday.

Almost 100 events have been planned across the US.

Oh, how come Google and Facebook are not on that list?

More info on today's protests etc.:

Restore the Fourth FAQ

dr_andus · « **Reply #81 on:** July 04, 2013, 12:30 PM »

I think it went something like that.
-40hz (July 03, 2013, 07:21 AM)

That's classic And probably true
-wraith808 (July 03, 2013, 08:12 AM)

An alternative explanation is that they all know that they are as bad as each other...: France 'has vast data surveillance' - Le Monde report

France's foreign intelligence service intercepts computer and telephone data on a vast scale, like the controversial US Prism programme, according to the French daily Le Monde.

The data is stored on a supercomputer at the headquarters of the DGSE intelligence service, the paper says.

The operation is "outside the law, and beyond any proper supervision", Le Monde says.

40hz · « **Reply #82 on:** July 04, 2013, 02:34 PM »

An alternative explanation is that they all know that they are as bad as each other..
-dr_andus (July 04, 2013, 12:30 PM)

Precisely.

When the president Nixon visited China back in 1972, there was a great deal made of the extreme lengths China was going through to absolutely insure his safety while there.

When the question came up on the news, I remember one of the big anchormen (Cronkite? or Brinkley?) asking the reporter on the scene how security arrangements were progressing. The reporter made some comment to the effect that both China's state security agencies and the US Secret Service were cooperating closely, and that arrangements were proceeding with an amazing degree of speed and efficiency. The reporter also said that the security people from both nations seemed to hitting it off extremely well on both the personal and professional level.

That prompted the anchorman to say something along the lines of how secret services seem to have much in common and act the same - no matter which flag they serve.

I think the same rule applies here. Government spies behave like government spies the world over. About the only thing that seems to differentiate the deeds they do in service to their masters is the size of budget given them, and the degree to which their masters are willing to turn a blind eye towards violations of law committed under the guise of national security.

We all know that.

But we can't really "prove" it.

The NSA, however, is in the enviable position of being able to provide incontrovertible proof of exactly how - and to what degree - other nations are spying on their own citizens.

And that is not the sort of laundry any government is anxious to see aired out in public.

There's an old saying that goes: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And it's now being said again.

This time around, however, it's not being said by anyone who's anything like that first guy...

wraith808 · « **Reply #83 on:** July 04, 2013, 03:49 PM »

This time around, however, it's not being said by anyone who's anything like that first guy...
-40hz (July 04, 2013, 02:34 PM)

Zing! And +1

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #84 on:** July 06, 2013, 07:54 AM »

Here's an interesting article which lists several countries that Snowden applied to for asylum. A lot of them are using a nasty trick where "you must be inside our border to apply for Asylum". (Aka haha, we'll deport you first!)

http://edition.cnn.c.../nsa-leak/index.html

wraith808 · « **Reply #85 on:** July 06, 2013, 08:06 AM »

That's nothing new. For many years it's been standard in a lot of places that you have to be on their soil (either locally, or an extension, i.e. a consulate) before you can apply for asylum.

The ones that are talking asylum without him being there are doing it for their own purposes. It's all a game. Waiting, political, and other.

Ath · « **Reply #86 on:** July 06, 2013, 09:06 AM »

It seems like Venezuela is offering him asylum, probably just to irritate the us of a

wraith808 · « **Reply #87 on:** July 06, 2013, 09:33 AM »

It seems like Venezuela is offering him asylum, probably just to irritate the us of a
-Ath (July 06, 2013, 09:06 AM)

Exactly. That's what I was talking about. Nicaragua too. I'm sure that you will see other Latin American countries do the same. But in public addresses, rather than reaching out to him. Because... media.

It would actually make more sense if you really believed, and really wanted to help, to make it fait accompli. So why are they doing it this way? Because... yeah. Media. Tweaking the nose of the giant. And making a statement.

dr_andus · « **Reply #88 on:** July 06, 2013, 10:10 AM »

Tweaking the nose of the giant. And making a statement.
-wraith808 (July 06, 2013, 09:33 AM)

Even though the giant was exceptionally polite

The Embassy of the United States of America presents its compliments to the Ministry of Popular Power for External Relations of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela and has the honor to request the provisional arrest for the purpose of extradition of United States citizen Edward J. SNOWDEN...

wraith808 · « **Reply #89 on:** July 06, 2013, 10:14 AM »

Even though the giant was exceptionally polite
-dr_andus (July 06, 2013, 10:10 AM)

I think that's called the velvet glove...

dr_andus · « **Reply #90 on:** July 06, 2013, 10:46 AM »

Some interesting analysis by Ana de Palacio, a former Spanish foreign minister, Senior Vice President of the World Bank etc.

...the Snowden affair reinforces the perception that the US is losing its sway in South America. (...) The threat by US officials to cut off aid to Ecuador, which would amount to a measly $12 million in 2014, further evinces a clumsy approach. America's traditional sources of influence - its soft power, regional alliances, and financial leverage - appear to be running dry. The message to the world is clear: the US is not the regional power that it should be.

Obama's flippant attitude concerning alleged US surveillance of the European Union and its member states shows that American exceptionalism is alive and well. Instead of acknowledging the legitimacy of European concerns, he shrugged them off as a frivolity: "guarantee you that in European capitals, there are people who are interested in, if not what I had for breakfast, at least what my talking points might be should I end up meeting with their leaders."

The US certainly has an interest in gaining deeper analytical insight into its European allies' decision-making than can be gained by simply calling, say, German Chancellor Angela Merkel. Accepting that spying is realistically part of the US toolkit, we Europeans expect it to be conducted responsibly. By dismissing European concerns about how such surveillance is carried out, Obama has demonstrated one of America's worst habits - that of patronizing Europe.

P.S. I guess the point is that the Obama administration has been incredibly clumsy so far in its pursuit to catch this guy. It's stirring up all kinds of ill feelings with traditional allies and giving plenty of ammunition to its traditional critics, which probably could have been avoided. Perhaps this attests to the skills of Snowden or the Wikileaks people, or it's just simply an unfortunate occasion that exposed these inadequacies in the current US administration (though I'm not saying Bush would have handled it better...).

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #91 on:** July 06, 2013, 11:03 AM »

There's still something wrong with this whole story. All of it. It's something to do with "too much noise". Why don't they follow the plot of a third rate tv movie and give a hundred grand to a sniper team and pick him off? Who cares if he's in another country? A lot of us are cynical - these guys perjure to Congress, but now they're acting like the rules matter?!

dr_andus · « **Reply #92 on:** July 06, 2013, 11:52 AM »

There's still something wrong with this whole story. All of it. It's something to do with "too much noise".
-TaoPhoenix (July 06, 2013, 11:03 AM)

My guess is that this is uncharted territory because the world of spying and the world of media have changed beyond recognition (due to the capabilities of the technology involved), so no one knows how to deal with this. Orwell's 1984 has become possible, but with a twist - that the oppressed also have access to the "wire" and can channel their own messages, affecting public opinion and international relations.

While the US administration needs to punish Snowden to show what happens to spies that leak, at the same time if they overdo it, there is nothing they can do from preventing a 100 new Snowdens leaking even more information, especially if they turn him into a martyr (Spartacus and Jesus come to mind...). It could equally inspire left-wing liberals and far right people against an overbearing Federal government. US democracy and the world order are being tested at the moment...

Everyone just seems to be improvising...

40hz · « **Reply #93 on:** July 06, 2013, 12:13 PM »

There's still something wrong with this whole story. All of it...
-TaoPhoenix (July 06, 2013, 11:03 AM)

There is.

Despite all the international "outrage," it seems the game plan that gets everyone off the hook is to make it impossible for him to be granted asylum anywhere.

Ca'n't stay here! Ca'n't stay here!

This way you don't have any country helping or (technically) hindering him. Now everyone can continue to pretend outrage, claim to abide by international law and treaty - and most importantly, not force a showdown with the Obama administration or the United States government. (Note: I consider these to be two separate governments at this point.)

The end result will be Snowden will eventually return (or be returned) to the United States hoping to tell his full story in an open court.

That will never be allowed to happen.

At best, he'll wind up in front of some "special court" that deals with national security issues in a closed session, from which will emerge a heavily redacted and thoroughly 'slanted' series of "news" releases that will serve to convey the message that:

Snowden is either a traitor - or a delusional megalomaniac at best
whisleblowers, as a class, are not to be trusted
the concerns about any real and/or potential abuses of government surveillance systems are greatly exaggerated
this is all for your protection
we really need to have more trust our "elected government"
and just to allay any other concerns, some toothless additional safeguards and purely token review processes will be implemented going forward

Next, the mainstream media will do it's part to show Snowden to be a genuine threat to national security (Fox/CBS) - or - a misguided fool who caused irreparable harm to the US irrespective of his alleged good intentions (CNN/NBC). Possibly public television will also do one of it's usual "say nothing controversial or critical of the government" special reports where two dozen experts all weigh in and cancel each other's opinion out.

After which Mr. Snowden will disappear into some remote US federal "supermax" isolation unit such as ADX Florence for the rest of his life and mostly be forgotten. Not that it will matter much since the deprivation regimen a prisoner endures while being held in such a facility pretty much guarantees the average detainee's mind and spirit will be completely broken (by design) in less than 5 years.

Amazing how advances in the study of human psychology have brought about such a humane and effective penal system in the United States beginning around 1980. More on that here.

wraith808 · « **Reply #94 on:** July 06, 2013, 01:32 PM »

Why don't they follow the plot of a third rate tv movie and give a hundred grand to a sniper team and pick him off?
-TaoPhoenix (July 06, 2013, 11:03 AM)

There's a reason why those are third rate tv movies.

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #95 on:** July 06, 2013, 06:08 PM »

Why don't they follow the plot of a third rate tv movie and give a hundred grand to a sniper team and pick him off?
-TaoPhoenix (July 06, 2013, 11:03 AM)

There's a reason why those are third rate tv movies.
-wraith808 (July 06, 2013, 01:32 PM)

Maybe, but I get the feeling that it would play out like that if it were a Russian whistle-blower. Just look at Alexander Solzhenitsyn's remarks about the bad old Gulag days. One tiny comment could get you "disappeared".

Instead it looks like we're tip-toeing all around this.

Tinman57 · « **Reply #96 on:** July 06, 2013, 08:54 PM »

It just don't seem right that the government can prosecute someone for reporting a crime. They just give it a different name, aka; Whistleblower, and then go about business as usual. Of course the government will argue that it's not his place to decide what's legal and illegal, to leave that up to the "professionals", ie; lawyers. Personally, I think they should pin a medal on his chest and call him a patriot.

40hz · « **Reply #97 on:** July 07, 2013, 06:31 AM »

Instead it looks like we're tip-toeing all around this.
-TaoPhoenix (July 06, 2013, 06:08 PM)

This.

40hz · « **Reply #98 on:** July 07, 2013, 07:03 AM »

It just don't seem right that the government can prosecute someone for reporting a crime. They just give it a different name, aka; Whistleblower, and then go about business as usual. Of course the government will argue that it's not his place to decide what's legal and illegal, to leave that up to the "professionals", ie; lawyers.
-Tinman57 (July 06, 2013, 08:54 PM)

Robert Anton Wilson summed it up this way: it's magic!

If magic is the ability to bend reality in accordance with will, then "law" is the ultimate form of magic. In 1924, about a half million hitherto harmless heroin addicts became federal criminals overnight due to an Act of Congress. In 1937, the same thing happened to a few million inoffensive marijuana smokers. How? Magic!

As Wilson pointed out, the people that make the laws are wizards and sorcerers in the truest sense of the word. Their view of reality and truth overrides any which opposes theirs.

And shold you think for one second that your view of reality is every bit as valid and real as theirs, Wilson proposed this experiment: Walk away from a police officer after you've been given a "stop order." You'll be amazed just how quickly and decisively that cop's reality overrides and becomes your reality.

And that, Mr. Potter, is real magic.

wraith808 · « **Reply #99 on:** July 07, 2013, 11:08 AM »

Instead it looks like we're tip-toeing all around this.
-TaoPhoenix (July 06, 2013, 06:08 PM)

This.
-40hz (July 07, 2013, 06:31 AM)

You know as well as I do, the thing about it is that it's playing out publicly. If relations between Moscow and the US were better in that regards, i.e. there hadn't been so many dust ups between them with the US pulling the superiority card on a former Superpower, then this might have been a lot different.

But the thing about it is that they're willing to be implicitly complicit, but not explicitly. Thus the fiction of the non-sovereign nature of the terminal. The fiction of the asylum request (they would have taken him... don't get me wrong. But they built in a poison pill for a reason).

And so the US is playing their position from a point that they usually play it from- strength. And they're getting played.

Despite all the international "outrage," it seems the game plan that gets everyone off the hook is to make it impossible for him to be granted asylum anywhere.
-40hz (July 06, 2013, 12:13 PM)

But they're doing the exact opposite. Their attempts to block asylum are making his case for asylum stronger, while making the US appear weaker. There are only a few places where appropriate pressure couldn't be taken to get Snowden in custody. Hong Kong was one (China could direct from behind the scenes and not tacitly get involved) and Russia is another. And with China muscling into the area, dueling with the US, which has an ugly covert history there, this is becoming more of a headache to the US, highlighting the decline of it's 'soft influence' in the area. From the ridiculous threats of withdrawing aid to the circus with the Bolivian president, the US is playing not just the wrong cards, but the wrong hand. And their 'allies' and 'partners' are enjoying the show. The Big Stick ideology isn't playing out so well anymore, especially when the US is already taxed, and cracks are beginning to show...