Author Topic: Does anyone here use Bitcoins? (Read 598373 times)

Renegade · « **Reply #250 on:** August 08, 2013, 11:36 PM »

But Bitcoin still isn't under government or central bank CONTROL. Sure they can try to regulate it... try. But where are the teeth?

Interest rates for bitcoins can't be controlled by TPTB. They are still a free market currency.

From the article:

but one thing is clear: If Bitcoins are the currency of choice for a computerized Wild West, the sheriff is pushing hard to impose some order amongst the ~~chaos~~anarchy.

Needed a correction. Anarchy is not chaos.

Vurbal · « **Reply #251 on:** August 08, 2013, 11:53 PM »

Needed a correction. Anarchy is not chaos.
-Renegade (August 08, 2013, 11:36 PM)

Definitely not. Constructive anarchy is the natural state for human society. Unfortunately there's always some douchenozzle waiting to take advantage of it and we haven't worked out a solution to that yet which doesn't involve a government.

Renegade · « **Reply #252 on:** August 09, 2013, 02:02 AM »

The only truly secure way to use bitcoin, from a long time computer security expert.

http://www.reddit.co..._use_bitcoin_from_a/

I've worked in the computer security industry almost since it was created, and I've heard a lot of misconceptions on this subreddit about how to securely use bitcoin. I thought it would be helpful to provide a few common sense steps anybody can use to safely secure their bitcoins.

You simply cannot trust computer hardware manufacturers. Hardware Backdoor's are real and more prevalent than you can imagine. The only way to be sure you aren't susceptible is to design and build your own CPU and computer system. Fabricating your own silicon chips is a surprisingly simple process, as all you really need is some sand.
Once you've hand manufactured your CPU, Motherboard, RAM, and IO devices, you'll need to write a C compiler that will compile down to your CPU's native language. Writing your own compiler will keep you safe from the Ken Thompson Hack.
Create a simple OS that you can use to access the internet. Some people might suggest using Linux, but there are 9,868,933 lines of code in just the Kernel, most of which you won't need, and personally verifying every line for rootkits might take a bit longer than you have the patience for.
Create your own bitcoin client. Satoshi's client could possess hidden back doors, or they could have been introduced since his departure. The classic create-a-currency-to-compromise-a-users-computer-attack is devastating, and we can't rule Satoshi out. Bottom line is that you cannot be sure.
Dig a very deep hole into the earth, and surround it with at least three feet of re-enforced concrete. Place your custom PC in there. Thermal imaging attacks can easily penetrate the walls of your home, and reveal your private keys to any wayward onlooker, or high tech peeping tom. A sufficiently deep hole will also protect you against common keystroke sound vibration attacks. Also, if you've had any help so far, this hole will double as their grave.
Before generating your public private key pair, carefully run your hands over your head to ensure that you don't have any suspicious electrodes attached to your skull. Mind Reading technology is real.
Once your wallet is setup, Quantum Encrypt it so that any attempts to access it will immediately destroy the information.
This is the most important: Never leave your re-enforced hole in the ground. Leaving your hole makes you susceptible to the highly effective (despite what Bill O'Reilly would have you believe) water-boarding-private-key-extraction-attack.

So long as you follow these simple 8 steps, you'll be reasonably safe against any would be attacker, assuming of course the entire universe isn't just a simulation running on Satoshi's computer.

[/list]

40hz · « **Reply #253 on:** August 09, 2013, 03:59 AM »

Sure they can try to regulate it... try. But where are the teeth?
-Renegade (August 08, 2013, 11:36 PM)

Ask Manning. Ask anybody who is a detainee (who doesn't exist, being held by any government in places that don't exist, having things done to them that aren't done, courtesy of laws they're not allowed to know about) where the teeth are.

People are amazingly unaware of just how mind-numbingly powerful modern governments are. There's plenty of teeth to be seen once the decision to bare them gets made.

This isn't to say it's hopeless to buck the system. But it's important to realize that if you think any government is just going to roll over - or follow its own rules should the going get tough - you are setting yourself up for very harsh lesson in realpolitik.

Renegade · « **Reply #254 on:** August 09, 2013, 06:20 AM »

Sure they can try to regulate it... try. But where are the teeth?
-Renegade (August 08, 2013, 11:36 PM)

Ask Manning. Ask anybody who is a detainee (who doesn't exist, being held by any government in places that don't exist, having things done to them that aren't done, courtesy of laws they're not allowed to know about) where the teeth are.

People are amazingly unaware of just how mind-numbingly powerful modern governments are. There's plenty of teeth to be seen once the decision to bare them gets made.

This isn't to say it's hopeless to buck the system. But it's important to realize that if you think any government is just going to roll over - or follow its own rules should the going get tough - you are setting yourself up for very harsh lesson in realpolitik.
-40hz (August 09, 2013, 03:59 AM)

Well, yes. It depends on if you can fly under the radar. Unfortunately, the radar is getting lower and lower.

For the moment, I think most of us can skate by. (crossing fingers)

Quoting one of the top advisors in the US that most people have never heard of:

http://www.scribd.co...peech-November-2008-

Namely in earlier times it was easier to control an million people literally it was easier to control an million people than physically, to kill a million people. Today it is infinitely easier to kill a million people, than to control a million people.
-Zbigniew Brzezinski Chatham House Speech November 2008 Part 1

People are amazingly unaware of just how mind-numbingly sinister modern governments are. Absolute power & absolute corruption and all that jazz. Still, I'm hopeful. Zbigniew even gives hope:

Their capacity to oppose control over the politically awakened masses of the world is at A historical low.

There is hope. While they may regulate bitcoin, they can't police every single person for every transaction, unless they go full on Khmer Rouge psychotic democide spree or flat out Nazi concentration camp. Given that "cold eggs" (literally - not a joke) is an offense along with collecting rain water and planting tomatoes (both again quite literally), I wouldn't rule that out. Just hoping... And bitcoin can be a good tool to help undermine the power of the all-powerful state.

40hz · « **Reply #255 on:** August 10, 2013, 07:22 AM »

While they may regulate bitcoin, they can't police every single person for every transaction,
-Renegade (August 09, 2013, 06:20 AM)

From recent news reports there's every good indication that they actually might be able to do just that.

That said, they don't need to come down on individuals. All they have to do is cripple the exchanges. Because there's no getting around the need for some type of exchange mechanism to make it work.

Most people also aren't so motivated about something that they're willing to become criminals to show their support of it. True, what constitutes "criminal" is in the eye of the beholder - or drafter of the law in this particular context. But even so, most people aren't willing to go through their entire lives with a 'siege mentality.' We don't wish to engage in protracted wars - either the shooting kind, or the the moral variety. The victory conditions need to be achievable within a relatively short time frame in order to get broad public buy-in.

Easiest thing to do to torpedo Bitcoin would be to just issue a law forbidding the use or exchange (along with facilitating same) of any unregistered currency or currency equivalent.

Once that's done, lean on the ISPs and search engines (who are largely cooperative anyway) to clamp down on access to the exchanges.

And finally, have government just go in scoop or nuke the data (funds) whenever they find any. Law enforcement has learned that two of the most effective tools in the battle with so-called wrongdoers are confiscation and forfeiture. Cash is the lifeblood of most human activities. When "crime doesn't pay" (or can be made not to) it usually stops being committed.

People who loose the wallets that way have no recourse. You're out the money - and likely ID-ed in the process. And then what are you going to do? File a complaint in court? That's the equivalent of saying: "I want to report a theft. I had $5k worth of crack hidden in my house...and I just got robbed!"

That's the problem with operating outside the law. You're completely on your own - and competing on a field where the biggest thugs will almost always win.

bitcoin can be a good tool to help undermine the power of the all-powerful state.

Yeah, it's good to have a dream...

Renegade · « **Reply #256 on:** August 10, 2013, 10:42 AM »

^^

For the PSA, you're probably right. But they don't have infinite power. Some countries still have the shadows of the vestiges of principles. Some just like to buck the PSA when they can.

I'm still not going to give up hope.

40hz · « **Reply #257 on:** August 10, 2013, 01:18 PM »

Never abandon hope.

But:

quote-if-at-first-you-don-t-succeed-try-try-again-then-quit-there-s-no-point-in-being-a-damn-fool-w-c-fields-61752.jpg

When it all goes south and you're faced with overwhelming odds against, do what the pros do: fold the 'op' and bugger out of there pronto. Next: regroup. Then sneak up and hit them from behind while they're still laughing about it.

There's plenty of things you can lose your freedom or life over. Nothing is easier than throwing yourself on the nearest sword. But the last thing the world needs right now is another dead hero. So pick your venues. Always make it worth the price that's paid.

Renegade · « **Reply #258 on:** August 10, 2013, 08:40 PM »

Quit? Like this?

http://www.businessw...s-tougher-rules-loom
http://www.zerohedge...citizenship-surge-66

???

They're even making quitting hard!

Tinman57 · « **Reply #259 on:** August 11, 2013, 04:59 PM »

It's pretty damned bad when a country tries to trap rich people into staying in the U.S. But if your in Germany and become a German citizen, I think it would be pretty hard for the U.S. to collect a tax on you when you turn in your pass-port and expatriate yourself. I don't think Germany or any other country would allow the U.S. to extradite one of it's own citizens over their U.S. taxes. But of course, I could be wrong....

Renegade · « **Reply #260 on:** August 12, 2013, 09:15 PM »

Looks like once again we have the good people of Iceland setting an example for the rest of us:

https://lamassu.is/

This is the Bitcoin Machine. Here's how it works:

Scan your Bitcoin QR code.
Insert cash.
You have bitcoins! Buy yourself something pretty.

But, as you would expect, problems for those in the US:

If you are located in the US, we require a signed due diligence questionnaire prior to shipping.

Still, it's encouraging to see more people innovating in the alternative crypto-currency space.

Renegade · « **Reply #261 on:** August 13, 2013, 12:26 PM »

It mostly speaks for itself. More nonsense and silliness.

http://www.forbes.co...financial-regulator/

Every Important Person In Bitcoin Just Got Subpoenaed By New York's Financial Regulator

Things are getting serious for Bitcoin this month: a federal judge declared it real money, Bloomberg gave it an experimental ticker (XBT), and New York’s financial regulator announced an interest in regulating it. Declaring Bitcoin “a virtual Wild West for narcotraffickers and other criminals,” the New York State Department of Financial Services is stepping into the sheriff’s boots.

“We believe that – for a number of reasons – putting in place appropriate regulatory safeguards for virtual currencies will be beneficial to the long-term strength of the virtual currency industry,” said NYSDFS superintendent Benjamin Lawsky in a statement.

...

List of companies subpoenaed by the New York State Department of Financial Services

BitInstant
BitPay
Coinabul
Coinbase Inc.
CoinLab
Coinsetter
Dwolla
eCoin Cashier
Payward, Inc.
TrustCash Holdings Inc.
ZipZap
Butterfly Labs
Andreesen Horowitz
Bitcoin Opportunity Fund
Boost VC Bitcoin Fund
Founders Fund
Google Ventures
Lightspeed Venture Partners
Tribeca Venture Partners
Tropos Funds
Union Square Ventures
Winklevoss Capital Management

"Bloomberg gave it an experimental ticker (XBT)" - Huh? Does anyone happen to know what "X" means there? They're full of it. It's a mockery.

"We believe that..." blah blah blah. It would have been more intelligent to start vomiting half-digested horse manure after that point.

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #262 on:** August 13, 2013, 01:43 PM »

Hmm. This feels different.

So it really kicked off about 2010 after a couple of years of concept demos etc.

Three years is a long time. "Suboenas are "instant" - random bits of paper. Last I knew there isn't exactly a super-event in Bitcoin that signaled Things Must Change.

So after random round-tables, *now* they decide to basically do a tombstone piledriver on the entire industry?!

This really is the fight-back of the Jocks vs the Nerds again. Even with flaws, the concept of Bitcoin is brilliant. Subpoenas are Muscle.

40hz · « **Reply #263 on:** August 13, 2013, 03:20 PM »

This really is the fight-back of the Jocks vs the Nerds again. Even with flaws, the concept of Bitcoin is brilliant. Subpoenas are Muscle.
-TaoPhoenix (August 13, 2013, 01:43 PM)

Pretty much...

Thou shalt not create your own currency.

For whatever reasons (some bad and a few good) that's simply not the way it's done. Period.
It has been tried previously. And the official reaction was much the same.

This is just like watching any other summer rerun...

wraith808 · « **Reply #264 on:** August 13, 2013, 04:29 PM »

The questionnaire doesn't seem to over the top... except one question about consenting to a background check.

But I get it after doing a bit of research:

An ATM regulation from 2006 stems from the Patriot Act concerning background checks and money wire transfers. If someone has a felony on their record, they cannot operate an ATM in the USA because an ATM conducts wire transfers from a bank account. People with a felony record cannot legally operate or even legally fill an ATM with money.

A background check must now be run by the processing networks before an ATM is allowed on the network to make sure the law is followed. If someone thinks they may not pass a background check because of a felony record, maybe a spouse or business partner can. As stated above, anyone with a felony cannot own a machine or load money into the machine, this includes an individual performing administrative duties inside the machine. An ATM falls under the wire transfer regulations for banking which are part of the Patriot Act.

So I guess this would be considered an ATM machine, and we fall under the glorious Patriot Act.

40hz · « **Reply #265 on:** August 13, 2013, 05:01 PM »

There were regulations in place for US ATMs long before the Patriot Act.

The Patriot Act just added additional rules to the mix.

And the restriction against ownership and operation by someone with a prior felony conviction also isn't too unusual. There's lots of things (some quite arbitrary IMO) that people with 'priors' aren't allowed to be involved with. Lottery ticket sales or being issued a liquor permit in my state for example.

So it's not all the Patriot Act. This has been going on for years.

app103 · « **Reply #266 on:** August 13, 2013, 07:08 PM »

"Bloomberg gave it an experimental ticker (XBT)" - Huh? Does anyone happen to know what "X" means there?
-Renegade (August 13, 2013, 12:26 PM)

The X probably stands for eXperimental.

Tinman57 · « **Reply #267 on:** August 13, 2013, 07:12 PM »

He who controls the money controls the world, it's all about the bucks. The U.S. wants to regulate it so they can open the door to taxation and manipulation of the market.....

Renegade · « **Reply #268 on:** August 13, 2013, 07:14 PM »

"Bloomberg gave it an experimental ticker (XBT)" - Huh? Does anyone happen to know what "X" means there?
-Renegade (August 13, 2013, 12:26 PM)

The X probably stands for eXperimental.
-app103 (August 13, 2013, 07:08 PM)

It's a not-so-subtle "f*(& you, poser" to bitcoin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_4217

ISO 4217 includes codes not only for currencies, but also for precious metals (gold, silver, palladium and platinum; by definition expressed per one troy ounce, as compared to "1 USD") and certain other entities used in international finance, e.g. special drawing rights. There are also special codes allocated for testing purposes (XTS), and to indicate no currency transactions (XXX). These codes all begin with the letter "X". The precious metals use "X" plus the metal's chemical symbol; silver, for example, is XAG. ISO 3166 never assigns country codes beginning with "X", these codes being assigned for privately customized use only (reserved, never for official codes)—for instance, the ISO 3166-based NATO country codes (STANAG 1059, 9th edition) use "X" codes for imaginary exercise countries ranging from XXB for "Brownland" to XXR for "Redland", as well as for major commands such as XXE for SHAPE or XXS for SACLANT. Consequently, ISO 4217 can use "X" codes for non-country-specific currencies without risk of clashing with future country codes.

Supranational currencies, such as the East Caribbean dollar, the CFP franc, the CFA franc BEAC and the CFA franc BCEAO are normally also represented by codes beginning with an "X". The euro is represented by the code EUR (EU is included in the ISO 3166-1 reserved codes list to represent the European Union). The predecessor to the euro, the European Currency Unit (ECU), had the code XEU.

Now, you *could* pull something else out from there, but when the generally accepted code is BTC, nah... it's a slight.

Tinman57 · « **Reply #269 on:** August 13, 2013, 07:20 PM »

Yep, once you get that big red x on your back, they want to make sure that you continue to fail until an act of self preservation puts you back in prison. Then everyone wonders why so many cons wind up going back to prison. But that is a debate for another thread.....

40hz · « **Reply #270 on:** August 13, 2013, 08:32 PM »

Now, you *could* pull something else out from there, but when the generally accepted code is BTC, nah... it's a slight.
-Renegade (August 13, 2013, 07:14 PM)

@Ren - I think you're reading way too much into it.

XE.com has been using XBT for Bitcoin for some time now:

In case anybody doesn't know who XE is:

XE was founded in Canada in 1993, providing computer consulting and Internet services for corporate clients. Through our consulting services we quickly identified the need for interactive financial services on the web, so we set out to demonstrate how interactive financial services could be. As a result, in 1995, on our XE.COM™ website, we launched a service called the XE Currency Converter ® - creating one of the web's very first dynamic sites.

XE became increasingly popular, and by 1997, it was clear that we were running the Internet's dominant currency tool. We switched our business focus to currency services and began enhancing our proprietary rate system and website. We further developed our advanced rate infrastructure to factor in multiple sources and automatically detect errors. This lets us generate a highly reliable data feed that is much more accurate than any individual feed. By the new millennium we had become a bona fide currency portal. Today, more than one thousand clients, many of them major corporations, license our Data Feed Service currency rates for commercial purposes.

Bitcoin Currency Code
Bitcoin is not recognized by the ISO and therefore does not have an official ISO 4217 code. A currency code is generally built from the two-digit ISO 3316 country code and a third letter for the currency. Although "BTC" is often used in the Bitcoin community, BT is the country code of Bhutan. An X-code reflects currencies that are used internationally and so, XE has chosen to use XBT to represent Bitcoin.

Bloomberg just used what XE has been using. Wise move since XE is where many corporate currency rate watchers go for info.

40hz · « **Reply #271 on:** August 13, 2013, 08:37 PM »

Yep, once you get that big red x on your back, they want to make sure that you continue to fail until an act of self preservation puts you back in prison.
-Tinman57 (August 13, 2013, 07:20 PM)

Bingo! This.

mouser · « **Reply #272 on:** August 13, 2013, 08:41 PM »

i've merged several recent bitcoin threads as i think they were starting to clutter up the living room.
i think we would be better off keeping all bitcoin discussion on one or two threads.

Renegade · « **Reply #273 on:** August 13, 2013, 08:54 PM »

@Ren - I think you're reading way too much into it.
-40hz (August 13, 2013, 08:32 PM)

Sure, that's very possible. I'm overly cynical sometimes.

40hz · « **Reply #274 on:** August 13, 2013, 09:04 PM »

@Ren - I think you're reading way too much into it.
-40hz (August 13, 2013, 08:32 PM)

Sure, that's very possible. I'm overly cynical sometimes.
-Renegade (August 13, 2013, 08:54 PM)

Yeah, but you wouldn't be Renegade if you weren't!

Don't change.