Author Topic: Visual Studio 11 Express to only build Metro apps (Read 31,360 times)

Jibz · « **on:** May 25, 2012, 08:31 AM »

Via Hacker News

http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/24/microsoft-pulling-free-development-tools-for-windows-8-desktop-apps/

Quote

Microsoft has instituted a big change with its free Visual Studio 11 Express suite that's leaving some current- and soon-to-be Windows 8 developers up in arms: it's pulling support for creating anything but Metro-native apps.

This is a mistake imho. The amount of money they will make from people who want to build native apps is minimal, and compare that to the goodwill from, and benefits of, having developers use their tools.

Renegade · « **Reply #1 on:** May 25, 2012, 09:08 AM »

Meh... VS 2010 is lots good enough. And actually, VS 2005 was good enough.

And besides, who would actually want to pay for an IDE to write Metro apps?

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #2 on:** May 25, 2012, 09:25 AM »

I can see that being another nail in the coffin for Metro - why would anyone want to use VS to only write Metro apps?

Can you actually run Metro apps on your own computer - I thought the only place you could install them was via MS AppStore and since you can't write commercial software using the Express IDE how can you submit it to the store?

justice · « **Reply #3 on:** May 25, 2012, 09:35 AM »

Not a big problem, any serious developer writing a windows desktop app will have no problem paying for Visual Studio.
If the philosophy is that the future is metro, people starting out now should write for metro.

If that is the case then, why not split it into Windows Metro and remove the whole desktop part of it, with Windows 8 Enterprise that has desktop only.

Renegade · « **Reply #4 on:** May 25, 2012, 09:49 AM »

Quote from: justice on May 25, 2012, 09:35 AM

Not a big problem, any serious developer writing a windows desktop app will have no problem paying for Visual Studio.
If the philosophy is that the future is metro, people starting out now should write for metro.

If that is the case then, why not split it into Windows Metro and remove the whole desktop part of it, with Windows 8 Enterprise that has desktop only.

I'm of the philosophy that Metro will be shoved down everyone's throat.

(That is to say, you're probably right!)

fenixproductions · « **Reply #5 on:** May 25, 2012, 10:38 AM »

I wonder will MS make time bomb out of VS2010.

@Carol Haynes

Quote from: Carol Haynes on May 25, 2012, 09:25 AM

… since you can't write commercial software using the Express IDE how can you submit it to the store?

AFAIR you could use Epress editions commercially. It was even written on FAQ page but it disappeared (conspiracy?).

Renegade · « **Reply #6 on:** May 25, 2012, 12:17 PM »

Quote from: fenixproductions on May 25, 2012, 10:38 AM

I wonder will MS make time bomb out of VS2010.

@Carol Haynes
Quote from: Carol Haynes on May 25, 2012, 09:25 AM
… since you can't write commercial software using the Express IDE how can you submit it to the store?
AFAIR you could use Epress editions commercially. It was even written on FAQ page but it disappeared (conspiracy?).

You can use it for commercial development (as far as I can remember). IIRC, the only real difference is the functionality and some projects cannot be created in the Express versions... For commercial desktop development, they omitted the setup project from Express. Meaning you just go for Inno Setup instead~!

(IS is more difficult to get running than the VS setup - the VS MSI is trivial to get working and takes almost zero effort.)

Also, see here:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3969484/can-i-produce-a-commercial-application-using-visual-studio-express-2010

eleman · « **Reply #7 on:** May 25, 2012, 12:41 PM »

In any case, if you need visual studio for some purpose, get 2010 express while you can.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #8 on:** May 25, 2012, 12:44 PM »

Are they going to hobble VS 2010 on Windows 8 ?

Renegade · « **Reply #9 on:** May 25, 2012, 01:38 PM »

Quote from: Carol Haynes on May 25, 2012, 12:44 PM

Are they going to hobble VS 2010 on Windows 8 ?

Nah... They're not that greedy and stupid... They'd severely piss off a massive part of their developer audience. That's a total dick move. While I've lost my faith in MS, I don't think they'll be that dickish.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #10 on:** May 25, 2012, 04:20 PM »

Quote from: Renegade on May 25, 2012, 09:08 AM

Meh... VS 2010 is lots good enough. And actually, VS 2005 was good enough.

And besides, who would actually want to pay for an IDE to write Metro apps?

Amen to that (on both points)!

Actually the thing I can't seem to figure out is what's the big deal about VS11 Express leading with Metro only? Granted I've only been using the std/pro editions of VS (for years), but I've gotten away with it by using the latest SDK with whatever VS ver I was using ... Hell I still like to use VS05 for quite a bit.

Do the VS Express editions attempt to prevent you from switching over to an updated SDK??

Renegade · « **Reply #11 on:** May 25, 2012, 04:34 PM »

@Stoic Joker

Don't you think that they totally dropped the ball with dropping support for dynamic help in VS 2010? I liked that. It really made learning new features very easy. That was a total screw up as far as I can see.

wraith808 · « **Reply #12 on:** May 25, 2012, 05:55 PM »

It's even larger than that. The Windows SDK will no longer build .NET apps.

from http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/hh852363.aspx

Quote

The Windows SDK no longer ships with a complete command-line build environment. The Windows SDK now requires a compiler and build environment to be installed separately. If you require a complete development environment, including compilers and a build environment, Microsoft Visual Studio 11 Beta is available for download.

Though I like VS, I use other products, i.e. SlickEdit that hook into the SDK to build- I've even built apps completely with Notepad++ and the SDK... especially services. This is shutting them out in the cold to be able to build.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #13 on:** May 25, 2012, 07:10 PM »

Quote from: Renegade on May 25, 2012, 04:34 PM

@Stoic Joker

Don't you think that they totally dropped the ball with dropping support for dynamic help in VS 2010? I liked that. It really made learning new features very easy. That was a total screw up as far as I can see.

Um... I never even noticed it was missing. I'd always just been in the habbit of hitting F1 to lookup whatever the cursor was on, and that still seems to work. Also with VS2010 they have the OTF popups that tell you what the function you're working on needs/has available for overloads ... So the whole thing is really kinda paint-by-numbers easy. I've never really worked with the .NET stuff much before, and I just started a complete ground up rewrite to combine several of our disparate internal systems into a single interface. So it's baptism-by-fire for me doing it with 2010.NET ... And its been going suprizingly well. I've even started writing my own utility class for sanitizing user input.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #14 on:** May 25, 2012, 07:15 PM »

Quote from: wraith808 on May 25, 2012, 05:55 PM

The Windows SDK will no longer build .NET apps.

from http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/hardware/hh852363.aspx

Quote
The Windows SDK no longer ships with a complete command-line build environment. The Windows SDK now requires a compiler and build environment to be installed separately. If you require a complete development environment, including compilers and a build environment, Microsoft Visual Studio 11 Beta is available for download.

Hm... Okay, that does suck ... But can you combine the SDK with the Express edition of VS? ...If that is an option then it might not be that bad overall.

craigvn · « **Reply #15 on:** May 26, 2012, 04:10 AM »

Quote from: Jibz on May 25, 2012, 08:31 AM

Via Hacker News

http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/24/microsoft-pulling-free-development-tools-for-windows-8-desktop-apps/

Quote
Microsoft has instituted a big change with its free Visual Studio 11 Express suite that's leaving some current- and soon-to-be Windows 8 developers up in arms: it's pulling support for creating anything but Metro-native apps.

This is actually totally incorrect, but never let the truth get in the way of a good story. The reality is

1) Express 11 will allow you to create apps for Metro, Web or Windows Phone, not just Metro.
2) What has been dropped is support for WinForms (who uses that anyway?), Silverlight and WPF (dead technologies).
3) Native C++ development is also now only in Professional, but the target market for Express doesn't have much overlap with C++ developers.

wraith808 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 26, 2012, 04:56 PM »

WPF is not a dead technology (and they haven't said that it is or that they're dropping support, at least as far as I know). Silverlight, yes. But WPF? Source? And as far as I know you can't create services and such with just Metro coding either.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #17 on:** May 26, 2012, 08:09 PM »

Windows Phone is presumably imminent in its demise - I presume MS will be focussing on Metro Phones from now on.

I think the point of the oroginal comment was the dropping of support for writing desktop apps - no C++ but presumably no Visual Basic either.

Jibz · « **Reply #18 on:** May 26, 2012, 08:39 PM »

Yes, like Carol says, my reason for posting about this was mainly that it looks like the native C/C++ compilers will no longer be available, which I think is a sad development.

I am not terribly fussed what UI toolkit is the future of programming at the moment, it seems like there is a new one every six months.

But I think having the native Visual C++ compiler available gave them some free goodwill from for instance the open source programmers. If you have to pay to get hold of the compiler now, they may be less likely to support VC++.

phitsc · « **Reply #19 on:** June 04, 2012, 07:05 AM »

I find it a shame that MS doesn't want to provide a free up-to-date version of their C++ compiler any more. I think it's a step in the wrong direction.

I'm also not happy with their VS pricing policy. 6k$ for Premium and 13k$ for Ultimate are insane. I think MS should provide Pro for free (or sub-100$), and lower the prices for Premium and Ultimate substantially. After all, VS is the main tool to write software for their OS (which I would expect is what they still make most money with).

wraith808 · « **Reply #20 on:** June 05, 2012, 03:47 PM »

The target audience for their higher end compilers is not the general public, but enterprises. They also come with other things other than just the compiler, so while I don't like it, I understand it. I do agree that Pro should be less, however. Perhaps not sub-$100 (though I wouldn't complain), but $200-$300 would be nice.

phitsc · « **Reply #21 on:** June 05, 2012, 09:07 PM »

You're right. I need to rephrase my opinion then. I think certain features are so essential nowadays that they should be in VS Professional, most importantly Code Coverage.

wraith808 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 05, 2012, 11:51 PM »

Quote from: phitsc on June 05, 2012, 09:07 PM

You're right. I need to rephrase my opinion then. I think certain features are so essential nowadays that they should be in VS Professional, most importantly Code Coverage.

That I can get on board with. The target for professional should be small VARs- hobbyists are just an added spectrum of support. For these VARs, some of the pseudo-enterprise features are quite important.

daddydave · « **Reply #23 on:** June 09, 2012, 05:33 AM »

Surprise reversal!

No-cost Windows 8 desktop development returns with Express for Desktop

Jibz · « **Reply #24 on:** June 09, 2012, 07:36 AM »

Yay, that is good news

.