Author Topic: As a counter-point to the SOPA/PIPA demonstration (Read 67428 times)

wraith808 · « **Reply #75 on:** January 25, 2012, 02:06 PM »

What he says and what he does are two separate things that often contradict.
-Deozaan (January 25, 2012, 01:57 PM)

I think that's the way you (unfortunately) have to work in D.C. these days in order to get anything done.

kyrathaba · « **Reply #76 on:** January 26, 2012, 05:09 PM »

What he says and what he does are two separate things that often contradict.

You got that right!

youngjohn12 · « **Reply #77 on:** January 28, 2012, 03:20 PM »

I'll be honest: I battle with where I take a position on these concerns. I can dispute from both factors. But they are not even providing the other aspect a opportunity to talk or have a aspect in the selection. I usually benefit less guidelines over more, especially if individual protection isn't engaged. Because actual life circumstances are generally very unpleasant. There are no apparent limitations between this and that. if someone is being harm and that can be prevented, that's good. But SOPA and this products is simply about management.

Renegade · « **Reply #78 on:** January 30, 2012, 06:40 AM »

Well, looks like the government there is looking to delete the evidence...

https://rt.com/news/...les-prosecutors-031/

You have to wonder... Why would you delete the evidence? Hmmm...

wraith808 · « **Reply #79 on:** January 30, 2012, 10:04 AM »

^ You have to wonder, right? Especially as deleting the evidence will put them in the way of several possible damage suits from people who have done legitimate business with the company.

I love this comment on that story also:

This Kim Dotcom guy looks like a very serious criminal. Are they going to hang him, or just give him the usual two shots in the back of the head?

40hz · « **Reply #80 on:** January 30, 2012, 12:49 PM »

What I find so amazing about all of this is how the media industry and their congressional lap dogs still don't understand the context that any of this is happening in - or exactly what the blackout day was saying.

I ran into this article at Forbes magazine. It's by Larry Downes and it's called: Who Really Stopped SOPA, and Why? (Web over to read it. Forbes get's pissy about quoting their text.)

I find it funny how the utra pro-capitalist and politically conservative Forbes magazine sees what's going on - and Hollywood and Washington still can't.

!ww.gif

Or more likely won't. $:-\$

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #81 on:** January 30, 2012, 03:27 PM »

I ran into this article at Forbes magazine. It's by Larry Downes and it's called: Who Really Stopped SOPA, and Why?
-40hz (January 30, 2012, 12:49 PM)

Damn! I loved the Declaration of Cyber Independence bit. We the planet says no (hehe).

superboyac · « **Reply #82 on:** January 30, 2012, 03:42 PM »

I find it funny how the utra pro-capitalist and politically conservative Forbes magazine sees what's going on - and Hollywood and Washington still can't.

Or more likely won't. $:-\$

-40hz (January 30, 2012, 12:49 PM)

Yeah...the last part. I turn in disgust whenever I sense that someone arguing this case can't see the gray-ness of the issue.

IainB · « **Reply #83 on:** January 30, 2012, 07:31 PM »

Well, looks like the government there is looking to delete the evidence...
https://rt.com/news/...les-prosecutors-031/
You have to wonder... Why would you delete the evidence? Hmmm...
-Renegade (January 30, 2012, 06:40 AM)

Wouldn't destruction of evidence by police in a pending trial be a Federal offence? I don't understand that.
Usually the people who would be interested in the destruction of evidence would be the people being charged - because the evidence provides grounds (evidence) for the charges.
That would be Mr Dotcom in this case, I presume, so it doesn't make sense here. Maybe the shady MPAA or the FBI or whoever has been pushing this thing as a major crime could actually be targeting something "hidden". For example, (say), maybe the objective is the expunging of a file or set of files in Megaupload's databases that could have some seriously incriminating evidence of another crime/crimes.

A useful question to ask if something - e.g., an artificially created situation or a deliberate action - do not make rational sense is:

"Under what conditions would this situation/action make sense?"

Lashiec · « **Reply #84 on:** January 30, 2012, 08:00 PM »

Well, looks like the government there is looking to delete the evidence...

https://rt.com/news/...les-prosecutors-031/

You have to wonder... Why would you delete the evidence? Hmmm...
-Renegade (January 30, 2012, 06:40 AM)

Hmmm, I say...

Renegade · « **Reply #85 on:** January 30, 2012, 08:31 PM »

Wouldn't destruction of evidence by police in a pending trial be a Federal offence? I don't understand that.
Usually the people who would be interested in the destruction of evidence would be the people being charged - because the evidence provides grounds (evidence) for the charges.
That would be Mr Dotcom in this case, I presume, so it doesn't make sense here.
-IainB (January 30, 2012, 07:31 PM)

I wouldn't go there quite so fast... Let me sort this a bit so that it DOES make sense...

Suppose the same thing happens to DC because something copyrighted was posted. Now, they preserve that post or the infringing material, but destroy everything else.

HUH~! WTF?!?

A 1-off copyright infringement is certainly still an infringement, but what is the context? Is it 1 out of a million? User uploaded? Systemic?

The destruction of, or the permitted destruction of, evidence is exactly that -- destruction of evidence.

I submit that by destroying the context of any alleged infringement, the prosecution effectively prevents the defense from having a fair defense.

IainB · « **Reply #86 on:** January 30, 2012, 11:44 PM »

I ran into this article at Forbes magazine. It's by Larry Downes and it's called: Who Really Stopped SOPA, and Why? (Web over to read it. Forbes get's pissy about quoting their text.)
-40hz (January 30, 2012, 12:49 PM)

That article is spot-on. Thanks.

40hz · « **Reply #87 on:** January 31, 2012, 09:42 AM »

Well, looks like the government there is looking to delete the evidence...

https://rt.com/news/...les-prosecutors-031/

You have to wonder... Why would you delete the evidence? Hmmm...
-Renegade (January 30, 2012, 06:40 AM)

Hmmm, I say...
-Lashiec (January 30, 2012, 08:00 PM)

Think 'avoidance conditioning' and it all becomes clear.

Here, I think you're just seeing another example of abusing forfeiture laws to send a message to people.

The message is : Be very careful who you host things with. Because if you don't, and your host runs afoul of the law, your content may be destroyed - even though you had nothing to do with it. So if you see anything that looks even the slightes bit 'iffy' - you better walk away from it pronto lest you suffer the consequences.

Private schools use a similar tactic. In my old high school, three students got expelled - two for smoking marijuana, and one for having the bad luck to walk in on them doing it just before the Dean of Students (acting on a tip) did.

Rule was, if you were there - you're screwed. Even if you were not involved.

It's arbitrary, illogical, fundamentally unfair, and spiteful. And it's scary. But that's because it's intended to be. Fear is a powerful motivator.

In the case of Megauploads, it's the Feds showing everybody what a badass posse they are in the hopes of further isolating sharing sites and ideally cutting into their revenue streams by scaring off legitimate would-be customers.

The RICO act gets used in a similar fashion. A favorite tactic is seizing things that clearly belong to parents, friends, and other innocent parties in order that their pain can be used for leverage in compelling "cooperation" from the person they're really interested in.

It's one more example of law enforcement terror tactics. Just like every other form of 'group punishment' or abuse of legal statute.

Megauploads is the proverbial "head on a stake" over the gate leading into the city. It says: You have been warned. Better watch you step, and mind your tongue, around here!

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #88 on:** January 31, 2012, 11:19 AM »

Think 'avoidance conditioning' and it all becomes clear.
-40hz (January 31, 2012, 09:42 AM)

Just the fact that you knew the name of it - off the top of your head presumably - makes me a bit uneasy...

But the "head on a stake" bit is truly an accurate description of the feds motive.

Lashiec · « **Reply #89 on:** January 31, 2012, 01:06 PM »

Well, looks like the government there is looking to delete the evidence...

https://rt.com/news/...les-prosecutors-031/

You have to wonder... Why would you delete the evidence? Hmmm...
-Renegade (January 30, 2012, 06:40 AM)

Hmmm, I say...
-Lashiec (January 30, 2012, 08:00 PM)

There might a be slight possibility for Megaupload users to recover their files. I hope the three involved parties come to an agreement on doing this, Megaupload isn't even obliged to provide this service to users, and the other two shouldn't really care what happens with the files at this point.

40hz · « **Reply #90 on:** January 31, 2012, 01:28 PM »

Think 'avoidance conditioning' and it all becomes clear.
-40hz (January 31, 2012, 09:42 AM)

Just the fact that you knew the name of it - off the top of your head presumably - makes me a bit uneasy...

-Stoic Joker (January 31, 2012, 11:19 AM)

Just 'so ya knows,' I did pull that term off the top of my head.

Helped my GF study when she was getting her Master's in cognitive psych.

I'm also a lifelong student of strategies and tactics - especially the 'neuro' variety.

Good thing I'm a basically nice person huh?

But the "head on a stake" bit is truly an accurate description of the feds motive.

Times change. Regimes come and go. Laws keep being written and rewritten. Badges are sometimes displayed, and sometimes not. But tactics of coercion and intimidation remain the same no matter what.

Mostly because they work.

wraith808 · « **Reply #91 on:** February 01, 2012, 10:49 PM »

Feds: We obtained MegaUpload conversations with search warrant

Renegade · « **Reply #92 on:** February 02, 2012, 01:17 AM »

Feds: We obtained MegaUpload conversations with search warrant
-wraith808 (February 01, 2012, 10:49 PM)

The FBI cites alleged conversations between DotCom and his top lieutenants, including e-mail and Skype instant-messaging logs. Some of the records go back nearly five years, to MegaUpload's earliest days as a cyberlocker service--even though Skype says "IM history messages will be stored for a maximum of 30 days" and the criminal investigation didn't begin until a few months ago.

Sources told CNET yesterday that Skype, the Internet phone service now owned by Microsoft, was not asked by the feds to turn over information and was not served with legal process.

AND

http://news.cnet.com...-with-piracy-crimes/

...sources said the feds began looking at the service months ago.

Since I'm Canadian, I'm certain that there are portions of American English that I don't know... Is "search" a synonym for "surveillance" in American English? As far as I understand, using trojans/spyware isn't "searching", but is more akin to counter-intelligence or surveillance.

And don't you need to be served with a search warrant? I'm confused.

Meh... The president gets to assassinate children with predator drones in "surgical strikes" whenever he feels like it. I suppose none of it really matters. $:-\$

40hz · « **Reply #93 on:** February 02, 2012, 06:27 AM »

This article is the singe best analysis of what actually went down with the MegaUpload bust:

What The Pundits Are Missing In The Megaupload Case This article is a must read because it addresses issues of criminal law and enforcement that have ramifications far beyond the Megauploads case (emphasis added):

The US charges against Dotcom, who was nabbed in a panic room clutching a sawed-off shotgun, are based on an indictment unsealed last week that accuses him and six others of criminal copyright and three other charges.

Contrary to many reports, those other charges are not about money-laundering and racketeering but instead about conspiracy to commit those crimes. The distinction is important because conspiracy charges are a key law enforcement tool for the federal government that, critically, do not require proving the underlying crime.

“It’s a huge engine for the government and one of its bread and butter statutes,” says Miriam Baer, a criminal law specialist at Brooklyn Law School.

Under federal law, a person is guilty of conspiracy if they agree with another person to commit an illegal act and then any person in the conspiracy does something to move the plan forward. This means that the conspiracy doesn’t have to be successful—only that someone performs an “overt act.”

Baer says this can be “particularly easy” to show because an overt act can be anything from a phone call to an email message. “There’s usually plenty of overt acts to choose from.”

I mentioned this in another post I recently made. And I apologize for cutting and pasting it a second time here.

But it's an important enough article that I think it really needs to be read by everyone who is concerned with where the US is heading with its latest War on ~~Communism~~... ~~International Terrorism~~... 'Foreign' IP Piracy.

IainB · « **Reply #94 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:10 AM »

@40hz: Thanks for the link. I learned something there.
The whole thing seems to stink something awful.

... where the US is heading with its latest War on Communism... International Terrorism... 'Foreign' IP Piracy.

Maybe you could add "Freedom" to that list?

40hz · « **Reply #95 on:** February 02, 2012, 08:31 AM »

^ And slavery, and poverty, and polio, and hunger, along with sanity, and legal process, and a host of other things. Strange place my country. It's neither as bad, nor as good as its more extreme detractors, and supporters, like to think it is.

That's the problem with a government as fluid as the one the US has. I gets replaced every 4 to 6 years so it doesnt have much in the way of long-term memory. And it's easily manipulated by well organized special interest groups as a result.

What I find amusing is how the US gets blamed by citizens of other countries when their governments go along with US inspired nonsense - much like the US used to blame something called "the communists" for everything that was wrong with the world. Unfortunately, the Soviet Union collapsed and deprived us of our favorite scapegoat. I wonder who other countries will decide to blame next after the collapse of the current USA sometime towards the end of this century?

superboyac · « **Reply #96 on:** February 02, 2012, 10:41 AM »

^ And slavery, and poverty, and polio, and hunger, along with sanity, and legal process, and a host of other things. Strange place my country. It's neither as bad, nor as good as its more extreme detractors, and supporters, like to think it is.

That's the problem with a government as fluid as the one the US has. I gets replaced every 4 to 6 years so it doesnt have much in the way of long-term memory. And it's easily manipulated by well organized special interest groups as a result.

What I find amusing is how the US gets blamed by citizens of other countries when their governments go along with US inspired nonsense - much like the US used to blame something called "the communists" for everything that was wrong with the world. Unfortunately, the Soviet Union collapsed and deprived us of our favorite scapegoat. I wonder who other countries will decide to blame next after the collapse of the current USA sometime towards the end of this century?

-40hz (February 02, 2012, 08:31 AM)

Renegade · « **Reply #97 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:51 AM »

What I find amusing is how the US gets blamed by citizens of other countries when their governments go along with US inspired nonsense...
-40hz (February 02, 2012, 08:31 AM)

As usual, you're right. However, I do think that needs to be addressed somewhat to give you some reasons why... From a Canadian perspective.

Now, I'm a Canadian expat. The situation for Canada is NSFW, so...

The Canadian Situation - NSFW

If Ottawa can't taste Washington DC's cock, it's because Washington DC's cock is in Ottawa's ass.

What's the difference between policy in Washington and policy in Ottawa?

ANSWER: Washington's policy is domestic. Ottawa's is imported.

Why are they the same?

They both have "Made in USA" labels on them.

For **** sakes... Gardasil is now on the Canadian health docket for boys! (Source - Source) And that's just one example. For anyone that is interested in spending a day or 2 doing some research, find out about Monsanto... Another American disease that has infected Canada.

Complete and total insanity. (That started south of the border. Not Mexico.)

When sanity returns to Washington, it will also return to Ottawa.

Addressing the sickness in Canada is largely a waste of time because the root disease is in Washington. Well... That's not completely true, but I'm certainly not going to post the truth about the situation here at DC. Suffice it to say, that in the normal mainstream view (however distorted it is), if we can cure that root cause, and return America to what it was meant to be, that will filter up into Canada and Canada will become healthy again.

Got some nutty idea about how to silence people? Hey! Tell the knot heads in Ottawa! They'll swallow it! (Because the difference between love and like is... back to the NSFW analogy above...)

When the US gets a cold, Canada gets the flu.

A healthy America means a healthy Canada.

I sincerely want to see America restored to the beautiful ideas that it was founded upon. That means a better Canada, and a reason for me to go back at some point.

As it stands, if the US remains as it is, I will never set foot there again.

40hz · « **Reply #98 on:** February 02, 2012, 01:25 PM »

Addressing the sickness in Canada is largely a waste of time because the root disease is in Washington. Well... That's not completely true, but I'm certainly not going to post the truth about the situation here at DC. Suffice it to say, that in the normal mainstream view (however distorted it is), if we can cure that root cause, and return America to what it was meant to be, that will filter up into Canada and Canada will become healthy again.
-Renegade (February 02, 2012, 11:51 AM)

Ren - I'm not quite sure what you mean. But my take is that Canada is its own country. If it isn't, and it's just an un-annexed part of the USA, then there's nothing to be done for it.

But I have far too much respect for Canada and its people to accept that. (And if I'm wrong about them - please don't tell me, ok?)

Maybe it's just an act put on for the Yankee touristas, but the last few times I was up in Montreal, Canadian nationalism seemed alive and quite healthy in both the French and non-French community. In some places it went beyond vibrant. A few times I 'd even characterize it as virulent considering how more than one semi-drunk felt the need to demonstrate such feelings to me each time I was up there.

But if Ottowa is 'ramping' all over its people, do yourselves a big favor and do something about it before you have a situation, and a shortage of former constitutional protections, like the US now has.

I sincerely want to see America restored to the beautiful ideas that it was founded upon.

Truth is, the US is sitting on what is probably the most precarious knife edge it has seen since back when "those who had a say in the matter" decided to make break with their homeland and go it alone.

America is not going to go back to what it used to be any more than it did after the Civil War. If it weathers the storm it's brewed up for itself, there will be a new nation, with new understandings, and a new social contract. How much it retains of what it used to be is anybody's guess. But right now it's too soon to reliably predict which way it will ultimately tip. And Americans have never been overly respectful of the past.

So seriously...don't wait for us to take action.

And I do mean seriously!

As a counter-point to the SOPA/PIPA demonstration

Renegade · « **Reply #99 on:** February 03, 2012, 03:06 AM »

I sometimes have to laugh at people that talk about Puerto Rico becoming the 51st state... Canada is~!

(We joke about it all the time -- it's nothing new. Americans tend to prefix that with, "No offense, but...")

You'll also hear Canadians complain about what sheeple they are... Sigh...

You have no idea how much I've put into trying to push some friends and family back in Canada towards some semblance of sanity... Some are on board. Some don't care. Some stare like a deer in the headlights. Some refuse to believe what's right in front of them. But, that's not a Canadian problem -- that's people in general.