Author Topic: I Finally Bought a Kindle Book... (Read 15310 times)

Renegade · « **on:** June 28, 2011, 12:58 AM »

I don't have a Kindle reader, and was pretty pissed when I saw that the only electronic option for a book that I wanted was a Kindle version (no PDF or anything), but that quickly died off when I looked for and found Kindle available for Windows and Android. (Yeah... I tend to keep my head in the sand regarding some things until I'm forced to confront them...)

So, grudgingly I download and install Kindle for Windows, buy the book, login to Kindle for Windows, get the book, start reading, walk to the grocery store, download Kindle for Android on my phone, get to the store, do my shopping, login to Kindle for Android, pay for my groceries, start walking home, search for, find, and download the book, and begin flipping through where I was in the book and reading on my walk back. How's that for a run-on sentence?

In any event, it all turned out to be a pretty good experience. Things worked ok, and the reader software seems quite good -- nothing special, but it works. So nothing to complain about.

While I was walking, I got to thinking that the whole experience/convenience is quite nice. Yeah... DRM blows... And I'd certainly have paid to have some versatility... But just getting it on my phone that easily was very nice.

Normally I would simply say pfft and moved on, but I really really wanted this book, so even DRM'd, I wanted it.

Which got me to thinking... Just how much of my pissing and moaning about DRM is practical? Yeah, it ticks me off. Yeah, I'm philosophically opposed to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yadda, yadda, yadda... Apparently I'm not THAT opposed to it because my actions certainly speak fairly loudly. But does 1 purchase make me a "free media traitor"? Or whatever sort of traitor you'd like to call me...

Then I got to thinking... There's no way any opposition to DRM would/could ever stem the tide. It's here whether we like it or not, and it's not going away.

Anyways, the convenience was very nice... Which got me to thinking again about the cloud... but that's another topic entirely...

zridling · « **Reply #1 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:11 AM »

I really, really, really want a tablet, but I spent my money on a lawnmower this year. I'm happy you're happy.

Just how much of my pissing and moaning about DRM is practical? Yeah, it ticks me off. Yeah, I'm philosophically opposed to it. There's no way any opposition to DRM would/could ever stem the tide. It's here whether we like it or not, and it's not going away.

Don't sell yourself short on whether you can make a difference. The capitulation you're feeling is exactly what they want you to feel! The reason you oppose DRM is (for me) quite simple: Why does a corporation need DRM? You got my money -- I'm clearly not a thief -- now give me my purchase without further conditions. If I pay you and then you claim the good I bought is still not mine, then I don't want it. I won't redistribute it, I won't resell it, but I don't want a corporation to tell me where and how I will read my books. I want them when and where I want them, which is everywhere! Moreover, I don't want to be forced -- as you were -- to buy a corporation's specific device to read a corporation's specific format.

You wouldn't buy a car that could only be driven on interstate highways, so why do we effectively do the same thing for smaller tech purchases?

In the meantime, don't fret. Enjoy it. Life is short.

eleman · « **Reply #2 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:30 AM »

Just how much of my pissing and moaning about DRM is practical?
-Renegade (June 28, 2011, 12:58 AM)

All the dead trees of my grandfather are still readable, even though their publishers are mostly out of business. What will happen to the books I "purchase" from amazon when that one goes the way of some not so feasible businesses?

See this one for instance, and replace "H.B. Fenn"s with "Amazon":

Canadian publishing was shaken yesterday by news that H.B. Fenn and Company, Canada’s largest book distributor and a stalwart in the industry for 30 years, had begun bankruptcy proceedings and appears to be shutting down, leaving its clients and authors scrambling. Fenn issued a brief statement Thursday, saying that it had filed a Notice of Intention to Make a Proposal under the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act.

You think you bought the book, but DRM'ers think you just "license" it. You didn't "license" the money you gave them for the book. Did you?

Renegade · « **Reply #3 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:47 AM »

Moreover, I don't want to be forced -- as you were -- to buy a corporation's specific device to read a corporation's specific format.
-zridling (June 28, 2011, 01:11 AM)

I didn't buy a Kindle device. I only downloaded the Windows reader. I'm still not anywhere near buying into that level of control yet...

You think you bought the book, but DRM'ers think you just "license" it. You didn't "license" the money you gave them for the book. Did you?
-eleman (June 28, 2011, 01:30 AM)

Good point. Given the author gets a 70% royalty for the book (and it's been quite good -- I'm just over half way through now), I'd only ever want to revoke 30% of my "license" to them.

wraith808 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:42 PM »

^ What book is it?

cranioscopical · « **Reply #5 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:56 PM »

All the dead trees of my grandfather are still readable
-eleman (June 28, 2011, 01:30 AM)

Yeah, but where's the oxygen?

Renegade · « **Reply #6 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:21 PM »

^ What book is it?
-wraith808 (June 28, 2011, 12:42 PM)

http://www.amazon.co...309285232&sr=8-1

Books, software. Same pile to me.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #7 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:51 PM »

All the dead trees of my grandfather are still readable, even though their publishers are mostly out of business. What will happen to the books I "purchase" from amazon
-eleman (June 28, 2011, 01:30 AM)

I presume one of two things:

1) Amazon maintain copies so that you can access your book
2) Amazon don't and refund your money.

By the way before Kindle when eBooks were in their infancy I bought three Adobe eBooks from Amazon - I can't read any of them now (they are no longer stocked by Amazon and are probably no longer in print) and I didn't get a refund.

That is precisely why I don't trust Amazon for eCommerce like this (I use them all the time for physical goods but not downloadables).

It is precisely why I don't really trust DRMed products from any eTailer

It is precisely why I don't trust publishers of eBooks.

zridling · « **Reply #8 on:** June 28, 2011, 11:57 PM »

I didn't buy a Kindle device. I only downloaded the Windows reader. I'm still not anywhere near buying into that level of control yet...
-Renegade (June 28, 2011, 01:47 AM)

I did read that, but I didn't remember it when I was writing -- Alzheimer's is hitting early. But that's the same thing I still can't trust with Google books -- although I've purchased a few (<10), I won't be buying anymore until I can download and save the .ePUB files of those same books.

phitsc · « **Reply #9 on:** July 04, 2011, 10:37 AM »

I'm less concerned about DRM that doesn't let me print or lend or copy my books (although that sucks too), but I find the fact the when I buy a book for my kindle, I'll never be able (without hacks) to read it on a different e-reader (should I decide to buy one) rather annoying.

I'd maybe buy the argument that I've only licensed (instead of bought) the book, and therefore can only read it on kindle, if it was substantially cheaper than buying a real-paper one. But, at least in Europe, that doesn't seem to be the case.

wraith808 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 05, 2011, 05:50 PM »

I'm less concerned about DRM that doesn't let me print or lend or copy my books (although that sucks too), but I find the fact the when I buy a book for my kindle, I'll never be able (without hacks) to read it on a different e-reader (should I decide to buy one) rather annoying.
-phitsc (July 04, 2011, 10:37 AM)

You can read it on other devices, as long as that device supports the Kindle Software. Still limiting, but not as much as that statement makes it seem...

xtabber · « **Reply #11 on:** July 05, 2011, 10:03 PM »

According to a recent Pew Internet study, ownership of e-readers is now growing much faster than tablets.

As a new owner of a Nook Simple Touch Reader who is still undecided about what tablet I will (eventually) acquire, I'm not surprised.

There isn't much to differentiate the Nook and Kindle ebook stores, but even though I buy far more books from Amazon than B&N, there were several reasons I chose the Nook,

For one thing, there's a lot more available in ePub format than in Mobi. It's also easy to create ePub ebooks from all kinds of documents using Atlantis. Converting to Mobi isn't hard but takes more effort.

I didn't like the previous Nook models, but the new STR is much nicer to use than the Kindle, and although it has the same size screen, is physically smalller and lighter.

But the killer feature for me was the ability to take the Nook into a B&N store and read any book available in Nook for up to an hour a day. The in-store reading is over Wi-Fi rather than from a local copy on the device, so you can't search or add notes, but it will still save me from wasting money on a lot of books that I might have bought but don't really want.

phitsc · « **Reply #12 on:** July 06, 2011, 01:45 AM »

I'm less concerned about DRM that doesn't let me print or lend or copy my books (although that sucks too), but I find the fact the when I buy a book for my kindle, I'll never be able (without hacks) to read it on a different e-reader (should I decide to buy one) rather annoying.
-phitsc (July 04, 2011, 10:37 AM)

You can read it on other devices, as long as that device supports the Kindle Software. Still limiting, but not as much as that statement makes it seem...
-wraith808 (July 05, 2011, 05:50 PM)

Agreed. I was specifically thinking about ebook-readers though.

wraith808 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 06, 2011, 10:44 AM »

I'm less concerned about DRM that doesn't let me print or lend or copy my books (although that sucks too), but I find the fact the when I buy a book for my kindle, I'll never be able (without hacks) to read it on a different e-reader (should I decide to buy one) rather annoying.
-phitsc (July 04, 2011, 10:37 AM)

You can read it on other devices, as long as that device supports the Kindle Software. Still limiting, but not as much as that statement makes it seem...
-wraith808 (July 05, 2011, 05:50 PM)

Agreed. I was specifically thinking about ebook-readers though.
-phitsc (July 06, 2011, 01:45 AM)

Considering if you purchase DRM'd music on a device in most cases, you can only listen to it on that device, I'm rather meh about that. Just as with music, you have to unlock yourself from the beginning, or accept the consequences. Convenience for you equals lock in for them. I go to third party sources whenever possible- and this is also the reason that though I buy from Amazon and B&N when necessary, I read on my own hardware, using their software.

Renegade · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2011, 02:35 PM »

I'm less concerned about DRM that doesn't let me print or lend or copy my books (although that sucks too), but I find the fact the when I buy a book for my kindle, I'll never be able (without hacks) to read it on a different e-reader (should I decide to buy one) rather annoying.
-phitsc (July 04, 2011, 10:37 AM)

You can read it on other devices, as long as that device supports the Kindle Software. Still limiting, but not as much as that statement makes it seem...
-wraith808 (July 05, 2011, 05:50 PM)

Interesting.

I suppose they have an SDK then? That really makes DRM a bit more palatable. If there are reasonable resources to build around it, then at least there is the possibility of consuming it another way possible.

The current iTunes model, where it's iTunes, iTunes or iTunes turns me off. I simply can't stand using it. I want to bash my face in with a sledge hammer every time I think of the pain iTunes causes me. If they had an SDK to do things like access the iTunes store, then a sane interface could be displayed. (Try browsing the iTunes store for a sci-fi TV show -- it's a complete mess and you can't find anything. It's so utterly disorganized... iTunes pukes out a trillion results and expects you to find the needle in the haystack... Might work for fanboys, but I have other things to do than waste time...) I've given up buying anything through iTunes because it's just such a horrible, painful way to do things. Then there's the whole AAC DRM issue... Sigh... That's a thorn in my side...

The Amazon reader software was quite nice though. Easy to use and it works. Getting it on my Android phone was pretty simple. Still, I can imagine other people might like a different approach. I can certainly see some room for improvement (but that's true for any application).

Blah... Summarizing my thoughts... An SDK is a good step towards adding some degree of freedom inside of a restricted eco-system, like DRM.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #15 on:** July 06, 2011, 04:55 PM »

A few questions, what happens in the future when you have invested in a large library and:

Amazon goes bust (they have a tough time making profits - or they have in the recent past)
Amazon sells out to another corporate entity that doesn't want the eBook market or has a very different policy/approach - a quick flick of the pen and all those T&Cs you agreed to can be changed, and you have probably signed that you agree to changes in T&Cs
Kindle v.9 turns up that doesn't support the existing format (just like a lot of the digital mapping products in the UK where you have to pay to upgrade all your maps for the new software version, or VHS has become obsolete so everyone has to replace products with DVDs, whoops sorry replace again with BluRay ....)
Amazon falls out with a major publisher and they withdraw their catalogue - the promised refunds on withdrawal of pulled products might be large enoygh to push Amazon over the edge ...

johnk · « **Reply #16 on:** July 06, 2011, 06:04 PM »

Carol,

If these possibilities do concern you, then it is very easy to make non-DRM (.mobi) copies of your Kindle books using open-source programs.

I try not to buy DRM'd products, but mainly because of a general philosophical unease about the whole idea. Practical issues such as the ones you mention are easy to work around.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #17 on:** July 06, 2011, 08:10 PM »

My point is you shouldn't have to do that - when you buy a paperback it is yours to do what you like with. Kindle (and any other DRMed) books are legally restricted to the license. You can get round that if you want to break the law but why should you have to when you have paid for the product, but if you don't you could wake up any morning and find titles or even your whole library gone!

johnk · « **Reply #18 on:** July 06, 2011, 08:46 PM »

It may be breaking the law to "un-DRM" your ebooks, but I see it as no different from music CD copying.

I have literally 1000s of music CDs going back to the first CD releases. Some of my earliest purchases have disintegrated with age and become unplayable -- in practical terms, the equivalent of your ebook "vanishing" from your ereader.

Now as I understand it, I didn't so much buy a CD as a "licence to listen". So I could theoretically go back to the music companies and ask for a free replacement CD so that I can continue to enjoy my licensed music. We all know how far I would get.

These days, most people are clever enough to make backup CDs of their purchases, to protect the originals, to use in the car etc.

Again as I understand it, this is protected under "fair use" law in the US. But it's illegal in Britain. However everyone does it. And the law is so discredited that the record companies have made it clear that they would not prosecute individuals in the UK for making copy CDs for personal use.

An update to UK law is on the way, and I'd be surprised if the plan to legalise "format shifting" does not apply to ebooks as well as music and films. I think stripping DRM from legally purchased products will become as common as copying CDs. And the DRM debate will gently fade away...

Yes, you shouldn't have to do it, but it makes for a simpler life just to work around the problem.

wraith808 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 06, 2011, 11:18 PM »

My point is you shouldn't have to do that - when you buy a paperback it is yours to do what you like with. Kindle (and any other DRMed) books are legally restricted to the license. You can get round that if you want to break the law but why should you have to when you have paid for the product, but if you don't you could wake up any morning and find titles or even your whole library gone!
-Carol Haynes (July 06, 2011, 08:10 PM)

I've been buying DRM'd books for years now (since my first windows phone back in 2000), and I've literally never seen that happen. I had a couple of hiccups from the change from .lit to other formats (I had to download a different format because they stopped being supported in .lit because the publisher withdrew from that format), but even in the face of books being withdrawn from the market, I can still download them. And even if I couldn't, I backed them up, and they work without connecting to the internet- both in activation and reading. It's a pain that I have to remember the credit card number they were encrypted with years ago, but I have that old credit card number written down.

zridling · « **Reply #20 on:** July 07, 2011, 12:37 AM »

It is strange and sad that we're moving from the universal and lifetime+ format of paper books to a corporate-controlled, DRM, proprietary set of formats for many books. If one ever had the fantasy that technology would free the world and make things better, corporations didn't get the message.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #21 on:** July 07, 2011, 03:23 AM »

An update to UK law is on the way, and I'd be surprised if the plan to legalise "format shifting" does not apply to ebooks as well as music and films. I think stripping DRM from legally purchased products will become as common as copying CDs. And the DRM debate will gently fade away...
-johnk (July 06, 2011, 08:46 PM)

Interesting article but the phrase 'believe it when I see it' springs to mind. The movie industry in particular had enough clout in the UK to make it illegal to even possess the means to break DRM on DVDs - you don't have to do it just have the means to, and it doesn't matter if you own a title and just want to make a backup (even if it still includes the DRM) that is now illegal.

A new framework will be proposed to parliament but I'll bet you anything it won't get passed if allowing the breaking of DRM is going to be included. The way the movie industry will get around that is to say you can buy another digital copy - and they are already selling combo DVD/BR/digital packs of new movies precisely to head of any changes in the law in the EU and US.

Renegade · « **Reply #22 on:** July 07, 2011, 05:15 AM »

An update to UK law is on the way, and I'd be surprised if the plan to legalise "format shifting" does not apply to ebooks as well as music and films. I think stripping DRM from legally purchased products will become as common as copying CDs. And the DRM debate will gently fade away...
-johnk (July 06, 2011, 08:46 PM)

Interesting article but the phrase 'believe it when I see it' springs to mind. The movie industry in particular had enough clout in the UK to make it illegal to even possess the means to break DRM on DVDs - you don't have to do it just have the means to, and it doesn't matter if you own a title and just want to make a backup (even if it still includes the DRM) that is now illegal.

A new framework will be proposed to parliament but I'll bet you anything it won't get passed if allowing the breaking of DRM is going to be included. The way the movie industry will get around that is to say you can buy another digital copy - and they are already selling combo DVD/BR/digital packs of new movies precisely to head of any changes in the law in the EU and US.
-Carol Haynes (July 07, 2011, 03:23 AM)

That law strikes me as just bizarre. (I think it's a result of DeCSS.)

If I buy a shirt, why would it be illegal for me to take out the stitching? Or if I buy a Roots shirt and a Polo shirt, to swap the labels? Or remove the labels?

CDs don't come with an EULA, and you don't sign anything, so why should you be bound?

Ok. Devil's advocate time over.

40hz · « **Reply #23 on:** July 07, 2011, 06:17 AM »

It is strange and sad that we're moving from the universal and lifetime+ format of paper books to a corporate-controlled, DRM, proprietary set of formats for many books. If one ever had the fantasy that technology would free the world and make things better, corporations didn't get the message.
-zridling (July 07, 2011, 12:37 AM)

Oh I think they got the message just fine.

Unfortunately, their response to the message is: "We'll soon put a stop to this nonsense." $:-\$

johnk · « **Reply #24 on:** July 07, 2011, 10:07 AM »

The way the movie industry will get around that is to say you can buy another digital copy - and they are already selling combo DVD/BR/digital packs of new movies precisely to head of any changes in the law in the EU and US.
-Carol Haynes (July 07, 2011, 03:23 AM)

I'm more optimistic than you, Carol. The movie/music industries realise that the law is discredited, and have said that they want reform, including the legalisation of copies made for personal use (but stopping short of the American principle of "fair use"). They have also made it clear, on the record, that no one will be prosecuted for making copies for personal use (under the existing law).

And when the new law is framed, I can't imagine it will discriminate between making legal copies of DVDs and ebooks. Both are copy-protected, after all, so to legalise personal copies the law will have to legalise stripping copy protection for personal copies. I can't imagine how the new law could differentiate between breaking copy protection on a DVD and breaking other forms of copy protection we now call DRM.