Do user forums sometimes stop software from improving?

[Jibz]

Don't get me wrong, I love forums of course (especially this one ), but I've started to wonder about a few of the ones I frequent. Do user forums sometimes stop software from improving?

What I am talking about is when you see multiple new users post similar requests or issues they are having, which usually break down to some feature not being intuitive in the user interface, or some process taking too many steps, when it could be done more efficiently by making a few changes.

What usually happens next is one of the power users on the forum posts a workaround for the issue, or even just a link to some of the previous similar posts the user could have searches for.

I am sure you know the type .. post count in the thousands, signature is longer than his response, usually in some "Power User" group on the forum making him feel almost like a representative of the company, zealous about beating down any criticism.

The problem is that a workaround is just that .. a way around the actual problem, not solving it. And my fear is that sometimes having these user forums where power users propagate the workarounds they found and use to new users will stop the software developers from realizing maybe there is something that should be changed here.

They may monitor the forums and read the posts, but they may also get a "problem solved" kind of feeling when they see a power user posting a workaround.

What do you think?

[mouser]

something in my gut tells me there might be some truth to the general idea that forums can have, in addition to their incredibly positive effect on software development, a downside.

but that just may be my bias to assume everything Jibz says is correct

because i'm not sure your example works for me.  when i see other users help someone out with a problem with one of my programs, i just get a big feeling of gratitude that someone was helped and someone took the time to help them.  and it means i can focus on those problems that perhaps others can't solve.  it also let's me get a better perspective from the outside looking in, for what problems people have and what kind of workarounds people are using, and how well they are understood.

[mouser]

one way in which forums could hinder development is by causing the kinds of problems that people talk about in project management disasters, when you have too many people involved in going back and forth with contradictory design requirements, or group-think problems where people get caught up in bad ideas.  but those are things that i think have more to do with a failure of the person at the top of the project (the coder in our case) to adequately manage the ideas being discussed.

[40hz]

One very real way it can stop a piece of software from improving is when the forum becomes home to so much negativity and criticism that the developers decide it's not worth it to continue.

I've seen this happen several times now over in the FOSS world.

Forums can kill something just as easily as they can help it.

Something to think about. And even more importantly, something to remember when participating in a thread.

 

[Target]

the thing I noticed about this is the idea that users posted about a problem in a forum (stay with me on this)

nothing wrong with this, it is the right thing to do, but if there is a problem - and the fact that somebody has come up with a workaround indicates there is - shouldn't they be communicating with the developers?

It's an obvious assumption that the developers will monitor a forum, or even that they will be responsible for it, but at the end of the day that is still an assumption (there are thousands of forums run by fans/user groups that have nothing to do with the developers).

If you want advice on how to do something, then a forum is probably the right place for your post, but if you want/need something fixed/changed, go directly to the developers.  You may not get an immediate response (ie fix), but at least the developers will have some idea of the scope of the issue (does it affect 1 user, or 100) and probably how to resolve it. 

This is called feedback and is an important part of the development cycle

This seems obvious in retrospect, but strangely few people seem to do it (though I often see people here doing it)

[Armando]

I find that Jibz makes a good point, but Target does to.

Yes, I too, sometimes, feel annoyed when some critical suggestions or bug reports are received with workarounds as if those would replace true solutions. Or when someone feeds me with a long justification for a problem that should rather be fixed. But do these really hinder software's development? Maybe in a few situations, but it's very contextual and one needs to be aware of the broader picture (not just the individuals' perspective) to really know whether it's the case (a hindrance, or not) or if, on the contrary, the offered explanation/solution is more of a balm that won't have any "negative impact" (i.e. : no evolution) on the software in the long term, etc.

E.g. :
Is the "super user" just dismissing problems ? Is he giving a workaround plus suggesting something to the developer ? Is he also encouraging the user to express his views ? Is he also sending a PM to the developer to urge him to do something about it ? Etc. etc. IMO, it's not easy at all to know what's truly a hindrance and what impact posts and threads have on a developer’s work and perspective.


By dismissing that kind of  “help/forum participation”, framing it and making generalizations (whether accurate or not), I think one simply runs the risk of discouraging participation in general and actually slowing things down even more. Who wants to feel like a jerk, spending time to help others but being laughed at in return?


So, yes, I did say I sometimes feel annoyed when getting workarounds and justifications instead of true solutions, but… usually, I actually feel grateful for any feedback, even if someone is offering something a bit different than what I wanted or expected. I mean, really, unless I explicitly said what I wanted/didn't want (e.g. : "Please, no workarounds. This is a criticism/suggestion/issue that isn't calling for any "dirty quick fix"), how would/should the person offering help guess that I'm not interested in what she has to offer, and, more importantly, why would she even assume that, especially if she’s participating in… a forum? And, even more importantly, why would that person assume that her workaround/solution would influence the developper to not go further and dismiss the problem... instead of the contrary : inspire the developer to find a better solution?


Now, as Target says, I find that when someone isn't satisfied with a workaround, it's really up to the person having a problem to clearly explain to all and especially to the developer what happens and what is expected (e.g. : a dumb workaround is okay for the next few weeks, but it won't do next month ; this fix should be implemented, etc.), in the forum, AND using the other provided vehicles. The more explicit, the better. And if it's important, post more than once. And all others who feel the same, post too (send, PMs, emails, etc.) .

And, really, in general, those who help aren't guilty of helping or hindering the software's progression, unless (maybe) they've been told not to and still do. But how often does that happen ?

My 2¢

(Yes, I’m a “super user” in the IQ forum. Fortunately, I don’t have a long signature at the bottom of my posts, so I think I’m okay... )

P.S. : And, from what I observed and witnessed, user forums are extremely helpful to developers... But some close them once software reached V1 for marketing reasons. I can certainly understand that, but I'm not sure if it's the best alternative.

[Paul Keith]

No, it doesn't but just in case you might want to ask of this in other places that aren't forums. (I was thinking of copy pasting this thread into Quora but I was too lazy to ask you)

The only thing that can hinder software is the software developer himself.

If he's not prepared for the butt load of feedback or he feels too bothered by the negativity, that's pretty much all on him to read through what he can implement.

It's misrepresenting the passion of the users IMO to pass the problem to them.

If the community needs updating or the forum needs a new model or even if the developer can't handle the feedback anymore, he himself could alert the community or maybe give them a warning that if they can't self-police the content, he may not be able to implement the most desirable features.

Sure, he'll alienate users but in the end, isn't the point of the software or the product to release it in ways that satisfies the features he truly wants? The feedback is just there to give him ideas on how to further improve the software. This should go too for workarounds. In the end, if he can't even understand what workaround should be implemented natively and what shouldn't, then either he's out of touch with his community and he needs to work on that first...or he doesn't really want to listen to them after all and he just wants to cling to his software model without losing his customers/fans.

Let's look at the most common workaround for Linux for example. Ubuntu users will keep saying how Mint's way of not needing to install codecs by default is nothing special and it can easily be worked around by following or pushing a few buttons but if you are the Ubuntu developers, if it's really that easy of a work around, shouldn't it be obvious that it can be done by default and might help make it easier for people to switch to Linux?

There's no miracle thought that needs to go there unless it can potentially slow down the software and add bloat but it doesn't. So what's the hold up? If you're afraid of ruffling feathers why not create a separate edition with it pre-installed?

Instead Mint does the obvious and with that simple thought, Mint went from freedom to elegance. Not because that one feature changed Mint for many users or that Mint is perfect.

It did simply because it changed the culture and the expectations of what Mint is as a Linux distro and with that momentum the developer can use that pattern to hone and filter out what other problems or features may need to be improved upon to better serve the needs of it's users.

It's almost a waterfall method. That first approach of the developer will always help him in filtering out and deciding which points he will adopt from the community and which he will leave as a work around but it's all on him. On the top guy and if people aren't satisfied, well...that's his call. How will he retain his users but there shouldn't be anything blamed on the users themselves.

If someone doesn't like New Coke and they complained to you about it, that's not a risk. That's your users creating extra demand for Classic Coke. Be courageous in adopting work arounds. Go ahead and dare to ruin software by improving it. You always have the old model to get back to if things don't work out.

That said, as always, I know zero thing about programming much less software development so I'm just talking out of my a-hole.

[Armando]

The only thing that can hinder software is the software developer himself.

If he's not prepared for the butt load of feedback or he feels too bothered by the negativity, that's pretty much all on him to read through what he can implement.

-Paul Keith (June 24, 2010, 10:50 PM)

I'd say so to. If you can't handle a forum and all the suggestions, yes, maybe it can become a problem.

A different question could be asked (not in this thread of course... Not hijacking intended) : How can a software developper make the best usage out of "user forum" to constantly improve his/her software (best and worst practices) ?

[Target]

true, the only thing preventing the development process is the developer, but users can and do hinder the process by not providing feedback (ask any developer)

the thing about forums is that a work around may be posted in response to 1 request, but it may be read and implemented by hundreds (or thousands).  

Now the developers are aware that there is an issue, but as far as they can see, it's only affected 1 or 2 users so the incentive to act on it is much lower than it would be if all 1000 affected users contacted them about the issue.

The majority of users will probably also fall into the category of, well, users (and I'll put myself into that category in a lot of cases).  That is to say they will use the app, but they won't necessarily be terribly well educated about it, and this means that a significant proportion of posts will be about stuff that is already in the fine manual or adds nothing to the app (hey, when can I start skinning?, will you be implementing sound effects?, etc).

if nothing else this can make (high volume?) forums onerous to monitor (needles in the haystack...)

That's not to say that intelligent users don't make useful suggestions, but the fact is that people can and do use you're applications, but they almost never talk to you about it (if there's a bug, they'll tell all their friends what pos it is, and if it works well, they'll just use it and not say anything to anyone)

[Paul Keith]

A different question could be asked (not in this thread of course... Not hijacking intended) : How can a software developper make the best usage out of "user forum" to constantly improve his/her software (best and worst practices) ?

Yeah, that's why I was thinking of sharing the question via Quora.

Who else but but engineers and designers of large startups/corporations like Facebook/LinkedIn/etc have the greatest chances of experiencing and dealing with this in a unique way small developers have never even considered?

true, the only thing preventing the development process is the developer, but users can and do hinder the process by not providing feedback (ask any developer)

Well, this is a reverse issue in my opinion.

There's a difference between too much feedback overload and too little.

Too much and it's on the developer to filter it out.

Too little and it's on the developer to make it easier to generate feedbacks.

Just two different animals in my opinion.

Now the developers are aware that there is an issue, but as far as they can see, it's only affected 1 or 2 users so the incentive to act on it is much lower than it would be if all 1000 affected users contacted them about the issue.

The majority of users will probably also fall into the category of, well, users (and I'll put myself into that category in a lot of cases).  That is to say they will use the app, but they won't necessarily be terribly well educated about it, and this means that a significant proportion of posts will be about stuff that is already in the fine manual or adds nothing to the app (hey, when can I start skinning?, will you be implementing sound effects?, etc).

if nothing else this can make (high volume?) forums onerous to monitor (needles in the haystack...)

That's not to say that intelligent users don't make useful suggestions, but the fact is that people can and do use you're applications, but they almost never talk to you about it (if there's a bug, they'll tell all their friends what pos it is, and if it works well, they'll just use it and not say anything to anyone)

Finally, this is another different issue which deals with the conversational structure limits of forums as per my post here.

(Ok, I admit that thread doesn't have anything to do with this topic but I just want to get more people to reply to that.)

[Target]

true, the only thing preventing the development process is the developer, but users can and do hinder the process by not providing feedback (ask any developer)

Well, this is a reverse issue in my opinion.

There's a difference between too much feedback overload and too little.

Too much and it's on the developer to filter it out.

Too little and it's on the developer to make it easier to generate feedbacks.

Just two different animals in my opinion.

-Paul Keith (June 25, 2010, 12:26 AM)

not necessarily different animals, but certainly different sides of the same coin

Like I said, 99% of users will probably never contact the developers of an app no matter how easy they make it to contact them (there's another thread on this somewhere on the forum)

As an example, I provide support to my workgroup with automation (basically some screenscraping scripts and a bunch Excel macro's/templates).  The inspiration/motivation for these all came out of my head (ie nil input form the group), and a significant portion of the development was done in my own time. 

5 years on and I can probably still count the amount of feedback comments I've received on 1 hand (that excludes comments like 'this is good...').  I know that there have been issue's, but I've only ever found out about them by accident. 

Now i work with these people everyday.  They can email me.  They can pick up the phone and call me.  Some of them can even walk over and tap me on the shoulder.

But they don't, they complain amongst themselves and continue to put up with a bug that I could (and would) fix.

The really irritating things is that they routinely call me and ask questions that they would have known the answer to if only they'd read the copious destructions I supply with each tool

I won't go so far as to say this happens everywhere, but I suspect that it's indicative of a common behaviour

Finally, this is another different issue which deals with the conversational structure limits of forums as per my post here.

(Ok, I admit that thread doesn't have anything to do with this topic but I just want to get more people to reply to that.)

-Paul Keith (June 25, 2010, 12:26 AM)

hehe, and i quote 'Too little and it's on the developer to make it easier to generate feedbacks.'

[Paul Keith]

not necessarily different animals, but certainly different sides of the same coin

See, this is where we definitely disagree. I did thought you meant different sides of the same coin but I just can't see how they are.

Like I said, 99% of users will probably never contact the developers of an app no matter how easy they make it to contact them (there's another thread on this somewhere on the forum)

This is a case of self-fulfilling prophecy. Right now there are many feedback systems that aren't just optimized and many of them are forms.

For every 99% of the mythical user who never contact the developers, there's a 99% chance of developers not contacting users ala this.

Not that developers should hire expensive advertisers and marketers and not that there's no risk of generating few attention but the point is...as of now...it's culture.

People especially people with little expertise generally fear sending feedback because they fear the developer isn't really interested and they have no way of replying.

I at least know the surface importance of CSS for example but when I contact a blog service provider about a theme problem that they provide and they come back with "IF you know CSS, then you can do this and that." - It makes me feel apprehensive already.

Imagine smaller developers who can't have the time to contact you all the time just to say thanks and then even more ignorant to the internet users who already feel scared with clicking any forms.

That inherent culture is just a recipe for little to no feedback.

Now i work with these people everyday.  They can email me.  They can pick up the phone and call me.  Some of them can even walk over and tap me on the shoulder.

See this is why I feel it's a different animal.

In a company setting it's a whole lot different from the software situation.

I don't have experience on that side either but if you hear stuff like 20 percent time concept then you realize, corporations or even small businesses are a different animal from feedback gathering on a blind and grasping scale.

It seems like it should be the same. It seems like it should even be the more conclusive evidence of the similarities (because as you said, these are people you work with)

...but for some reason it's not. I don't know why but...it's not.

If you throw a managerial or project management idea at a grand general group of internet users and even small FOSS groups, they fall... their just two different Voltrons

Imagine if you apply and switch the members of Vehicle Voltron into Lion Voltron....they just fall apart or they should.

Both of them are giant robots. Both of them are robots that transform by combining.

...but if you look at the specifics, Vehicle Voltron's team is organized for Land, Air and Sea while Lion Voltron's team is to guard and defend the planet.

I'm not sure if the analogy fits with this situation in general but at some point, I think it does. I think co-workers are a lot more dependent yet distant towards their company software. I even pissed a working girl once when I asked her what's the flaws of adapting OpenOffice insteaad of MS Office from her experience.

...and for some reason, you could hear in her tone that it's like I'm asking her to say something dirty and yet I'm merely asking her for her own experience and this isn't as a required job or anything. We were merely acquaintances talking.

In the end she threw out the fact that there was no seminar or introduction class and the topic ended there because she sounds so pissed off.

Can you imagine even a casual user who don't know OpenOffice on an internet forum reacting that badly towards a simple question?

It's just...I don't see the coin. I see the animals.

hehe, and i quote 'Too little and it's on the developer to make it easier to generate feedbacks.'

 

[Paul Keith]

Although not holding the same question, I think I found the equivalent question of this problem in Quora:

http://www.quora.com...-their-own-instincts

Check it out Jibz. They may hold some extra answers to your question. (although it doesn't answer the issue of the effect of forums in general.)

[tslim]

The problem is that a workaround is just that .. a way around the actual problem, not solving it. And my fear is that sometimes having these user forums where power users propagate the workarounds they found and use to new users will stop the software developers from realizing maybe there is something that should be changed here.

They may monitor the forums and read the posts, but they may also get a "problem solved" kind of feeling when they see a power user posting a workaround.

What do you think?

-Jibz (June 24, 2010, 05:25 AM)

I think I cen agree 50% with you.
When someone suggest a workaround to a software problem, particularly, if that someone is a representative of the developer company or the software author himself... then chances is there won't be a fix/change/rectification soon.

However, the above is not limited to 'user forum', the workaround suggetion could happen in a form of support email (to you) as a response of feedback system. So the real hinder is not cause by 'user forum', it is the attitude of the developer.

My believe is:
Only software with good future (never stop in the progress of growing better and better) and serious developer(s) can afford a use forum. Otherwise, the software company will either find a thousand reasons to not providing user forum or stop an existing one .

[brahman]

the copious destructions I supply with each tool

-Target (June 25, 2010, 12:55 AM)

Do the tools self-destruct or are you blowing up the user? 

[mnemonic]

Isn't another issue around the sexiness of new projects and the dismissing of old ones?  The next idea a developer has is really sexy and he definitely won't make the same awful design decisions he made last time.  While the developer is busy writing an application that will cure all the world's problems, the blossoming user community starts asking for bigger and better functions, especially ones that were outside of the original design.  After enough pestering, the developer has to part from his new, perfectly-architected application and work on the old one to shut the forum dwellers-up.  To speed up the process, he doesn't even want to understand how the original big, hairy mess of code works and he bodges it in with no thought for the architecture.

It works...just.  The forum-dwellers are happy bunnies and then go-away and dream-up new and exciting things the developer can add to the application...and generate a list of bugs with the code the developer bodged in.  The developer then gets sick-to-death of these dwellers constantly asking him to add more stuff to this hateful, badly-architected old code and vows never again to revisit that damn forum again.  Instead, he destroys the forum and sets-up a complex and impossible to use "support ticket" system where these people can never ever meet and exchange their evil thoughts again.  If it's complex enough, he might even be able to avoid ever seeing these issues again and can get on with the new and sexy project.

Maybe I'm wrong though...

[Armando]

Isn't another issue around the sexiness of new projects and the dismissing of old ones?  The next idea a developer has is really sexy and he definitely won't make the same awful design decisions he made last time.  While the developer is busy writing an application that will cure all the world's problems, the blossoming user community starts asking for bigger and better functions, especially ones that were outside of the original design.  After enough pestering, the developer has to part from his new, perfectly-architected application and work on the old one to shut the forum dwellers-up.  To speed up the process, he doesn't even want to understand how the original big, hairy mess of code works and he bodges it in with no thought for the architecture.

It works...just.  The forum-dwellers are happy bunnies and then go-away and dream-up new and exciting things the developer can add to the application...and generate a list of bugs with the code the developer bodged in.  The developer then gets sick-to-death of these dwellers constantly asking him to add more stuff to this hateful, badly-architected old code and vows never again to revisit that damn forum again.  Instead, he destroys the forum and sets-up a complex and impossible to use "support ticket" system where these people can never ever meet and exchange their evil thoughts again.  If it's complex enough, he might even be able to avoid ever seeing these issues again and can get on with the new and sexy project.

Maybe I'm wrong though...

-mnemonic (July 14, 2010, 01:51 PM)

Sexiness can always be a "problem" (can also be a solution, depending on how you look at it), regardless of the activity or the perspective.

Users too fall for sexiness... They often request new (almost useless) features to counter their natural hedonistic adaptation or because they'd like the software to be simply... "sexier" (sexy UI anyone ?) according to their own standards/vision -- which has nothing to do per se with the actual function of the software.

IMO, if the developer uses/depends on his own software daily, there are less chances for sexiness to have as much influence on development. As a user he might see better improvement of functionalities as an advantage, not a drag. Of course, if he doesn't see the point of such or such improvement in his own day to day use, it might actually be a disadvantage for the other users.

[mnemonic]

Users too fall for sexiness... They often request new (almost useless) features to counter their natural hedonistic adaptation or because they'd like the software to be simply... "sexier" (sexy UI anyone ?) according to their own standards/vision -- which has nothing to do per se with the actual function of the software.

-Armando (July 14, 2010, 02:44 PM)

I totally agree.  People get angry when a new major release doesn't have a look-and-feel change.  As a result, new major versions of software are often just gui changes due to the pandering of the users.  This can de detrimental when the gui was perfectly adequate in the previous version.