Text outliner/organiser/editor

[Dormouse]

The plain text editor for writers thread really got me looking at this software.

I have two similar needs.
One, as a writer, to outline, organise and write text (& some images)
Two, as an editor/re-organiser, to take someone else's text and remake it. One example of this would be taking a thesis and making a number of papers out of it.

There's quite a lot of ways of doing the first, but I hadn't found a good way of doing the second.

My idea was a two pane outliner/text editor with a hierarchical outline tree on the left and a text pane on the right. With the ability to see all the text from selected nodes together - either in the text pane or another. And the ability to re-order the tree using drag and drop. I was sure that there would be many programs that could do this - and maybe there are, but I haven't found them.

Ideally, the program would be no more complicated than this; other features aren't needed.

As far as I could see, the two pane outliners/editors all kept the notes separate and it is not possible to see bigger sections or the whole text document. Programs like Word and OneNote keep it all in one pane. I assume that it will be possible to make SQLnotes do this (but attempting that feels beyond me atm). I could make a prog like Liquid Story Blender do it - but it is a bit complex just for that (and I'm not familiar enough with it yet), and critically it does not do drag and drop.

It may well be my own ignorance of my software (let alone stuff I just downloaded to try) that has stopped me. I just installed Word2007 to go with OneNote2007, and I can see it is going to take quite a while to find my way around it; I still have 2003 on my machine, but it takes an age to load since I had 2007 too.

For the editing task, the simplest approach I have found is to open the text in something like Wordpad (Word if necessary), and then to cut and paste it into Keynote, creating the outline nodes & descriptors as necessary. Do the editing in Keynote, and use the export function to look at the whole document in Wordpad or whatever as often as I need to. Clunky, but it does seem capable of working and it is using software I know.

OneNote does give the capacity to select body text, which gives the ability to export just the text as I described above and the extra tag functionality etc might be useful. Harder to add separate node names/descriptors though because it is all within the same pane. OTOH, the body text can just be cut and pasted to another note, so no need to open a new document in another app. I may try this method first because I can see OneNote being particularly useful in document creation. Not as fast as Keynote though, but a lot more versatile; although the nodes and text are not so well linked. There is an extra 3 layer hierarchy available (notebook, section, page) which can be seen as a treeview with the plugin, but it is not much use in this context because selecting all the bodytext would be difficult.

Word (at least in its 2007 incarnation and with my limited knowledge of it) appears not to have the ability to select body text alone (would probably have to select all headings and delete them to see the text alone and then undo a bit to go back to status quo). I must admit that I am beginning to question the value of a word processor for a lot of everyday work. And I've never found them very effective for this type of task however much you use versions and subdocuments.

If anyone has better ideas of how to do this, or better software, I'd be glad to hear them.

[Armando]

My idea was a two pane outliner/text editor with a hierarchical outline tree on the left and a text pane on the right. With the ability to see all the text from selected nodes together - either in the text pane or another. And the ability to re-order the tree using drag and drop. I was sure that there would be many programs that could do this - and maybe there are, but I haven't found them.
[...]
Word (at least in its 2007 incarnation and with my limited knowledge of it) appears not to have the ability to select body text alone (would probably have to select all headings and delete them to see the text alone and then undo a bit to go back to status quo). I must admit that I am beginning to question the value of a word processor for a lot of everyday work. And I've never found them very effective for this type of task however much you use versions and subdocuments.

-Dormouse (April 02, 2008, 01:29 PM)

I find that MS Word (2003 in my case) has a pretty powerful outliner, and it allows you (through the "Document map" view ) to almost have a real 2 pane outliner, IMO much more flexible and manageable than OneNote for huge and complex document structures ... I use Word for many many things. For anything textual, it's really pretty good... Now, I think that you're right that it doesn't allow you to see only the body text without the headings. But is that really necessary ? You could always remove all headings before print -- not ideal, that's for sure, but feasible without tooooo much hassle. You're also right that SQLNotes will probably allow that kind of stuff quite soon since the plan is to add the option to use MS Word as the HTML editor and also add the possibility of seeing the html text directly in the grid itself (there was a nice screen cast about that feature but can't find it anymore). However, it can't be done now, so....

I've been trying a lot of different options myself and always came back to Word (the other big ones like Open Office.org or TextMaker would probably do the job too, but I prefer MS Word's outliner... who knows though, maybe one of the other offers the option of hiding all headings? BTW : have you seen this thread ?). I've created many templates for my different needs, and, really, it works pretty well. You could also try the "chapter by chapter" addon (didn't really work out for me though).

See these links on word's outlining feature :
http://www.microsyst...m/PDFS/sevenlaws.pdf
http://word.mvps.org...ting/UsingOLView.htm

[MikeMcLoughlin]

I use PageFour and love its simplicity. The licensing is very fair and the author seems a genuine nice guy judging by his attitude.

http://www.softwareforwriting.com/

[Dormouse]

I use PageFour and love its simplicity. The licensing is very fair and the author seems a genuine nice guy judging by his attitude.

-MikeMcLoughlin (April 03, 2008, 02:04 AM)

It was one of those I downloaded and didn't uninstall. I agree it is nice and simple and seems pretty fast. The problem is that for this sort of function it doesn't add much to what Keynote can offer, though it is a much nicer environment for actually writing in.

[zridling]

Too bad Ecco Pro died ten years ago. It was the greatest note and outliner app ever. Why no one ever coded something similar I'll never know.

[ashwken]

My idea was a two pane outliner/text editor with a hierarchical outline tree on the left and a text pane on the right. With the ability to see all the text from selected nodes together - either in the text pane or another. And the ability to re-order the tree using drag and drop. I was sure that there would be many programs that could do this - and maybe there are, but I haven't found them.

Ideally, the program would be no more complicated than this; other features aren't needed.

-Dormouse (April 02, 2008, 01:29 PM)

Ultra Recall will allow for the first - Show Combined Text for Multiple Selections - but may not meet your second criteria.

[steeladept]

Here is an idea on how to use Word. I have played with this idea many times, though my needs are not as complex as yours.  What's more, if you can make it work, it should work with every version since Word95, maybe earlier.

Try giving each section a different style.  The styles can be the same but use a different name.  Then, with a little macro, you can select all text with the given style.  Once selected, you can cut, paste, move it around, or change it without affecting the rest of the document.

I never actually did this, but I did something similar with excel and it worked reasonably well.  It may just be a thing with excel, but I would hope not.  Perhaps that is all you need with what you already know and do.

[Dormouse]

Thanks for the response and info Armando. I hadn't seen your earlier thread and it is interesting that you have travelled a similar path. Maybe it looks as if there is a niche market waiting for a reasonable product. Ideally, I'd be able to add little yellow stickies too that would stick to the bit of the document I put them on. And tagging (and the ability to select and cut and paste by tag would be good - something I've not yet managed in OneNote) + the usual highlighting and comments options. But just the fast simple bit would do.

Why do I not want to use Word? Well, it is just too slow and big and cumbersome for something that is fundamentally simple. I don't need all the formatting and collaborating etc etc functions for this task. I've given up actually typing in Word for the same reason. It's like going out to play tennis in an overcoat and waterproof. That's the first reason.

The second is that I've never got it to do the job as easily as I think the job could be done. I assume that was the reason for your own  search for alternatives. I'm not sure that I'll not end up back with using Word for the lack of better alternative ways of doing it. I think the basic problem is that Word confounds the use of headings with the idea of outlining. Headings will be wanted in many documents to make the presentation easier to read, and they may or may not map on to outlines. An outline is simply a way of breaking the whole into smaller and smaller parts and then being able to use those parts to redesign the whole. If the document is like a building, the outlines can be like bricks at the lowest level, then sections of wall in ever greater sizes and finally whole walls. They don't necessarily need to be headings but they do need a sufficiently detailed description of what they are so that you know what you are doing when you redesign the document just using the outlines. Programs like most of the outliners, Keynote etc etc etc all have proper outliners which don't affect the use of headings and text.

For my purposes, there are two things for me to do using an outliner before rearranging the document. The first is to create an outline for the new document(s). The second is to go through the original material and select the components I need for each document and then to break them down into the bits I will rearrange. Some will need to be broken into bricks, sometimes whole sections of wall can be kept as they are - but I will need a description of each so I can work out what I am doing just with the outline.Then I would want to use the outliner to arrange the material.

Word does not make it easy to break the text into bricks; if a brick is a single sentence, a heading isn't what I want. And it does not make it easy to tag or otherwise identify the sections I want for the new document. But I agree it can be done. Maybe I can use the clipboard as a brick container; do it by sections, then break a section into as many bricks as necessary and insert as needed from the clipboard; 24 isn't too bad a number for that.

I don't find the document map especially helpful because you can't do anything with it except look and navigate around the document. This feature seems to have been removed in 2007, though no doubt I will rediscover it when I least expect it. I agree that the outlining in Word was always very strong compared to other WPs. I'd never come across Textmaker before, but the manual didn't seem to make much of its outlining capacity. I do use OO - and maybe I ought to try how well it does outlining, but somehow I doubt if it will be better.

The reason I want to see the bodytext alone while I am working is that is what the final copy will look like. I will just be confused by having headings appear inside paragraphs. And really this is a task I want to be able to focus my concentration on without distractions on the screen.

I'm not convinced that OneNote will be better for this than Word. Possibly just different advantages and disadvantages. I do see its value in original document creation though. I also see how it might be the best way of analysing and splitting the document into components. Then I could do the new outline in Word for the bits where headings are OK (maybe a more detailed outline in something else that I can overlay and use as a guide) and carry bricks from OneNote 24 at a time. I can see that might work.

[Dormouse]

Ultra Recall will allow for the first - Show Combined Text for Multiple Selections - but may not meet your second criteria.

-ashwken (April 03, 2008, 11:19 AM)

I didn't realise Ultra Recall would do this. I'd just assumed it was just an info store. I'll d/l and have a look. Thanks.

PS I see that Show Combined Text for Multiple Selections requires the Pro version 

[Dormouse]

Try giving each section a different style.  The styles can be the same but use a different name.  Then, with a little macro, you can select all text with the given style.  Once selected, you can cut, paste, move it around, or change it without affecting the rest of the document.

-steeladept (April 03, 2008, 12:07 PM)

Intriguing idea, though I'm not a great user of macros and I'm not quite sure how to go about selecting for styles in a document. I can have a look for it though.

[Dormouse]

Ultra Recall will allow for the first - Show Combined Text for Multiple Selections - but may not meet your second criteria.

-ashwken (April 03, 2008, 11:19 AM)

Right on both counts. And the price for the Professional version is a bit stiff for what is a tiny part of the program's functionality.

Ideally, I'd be able to add little yellow stickies too that would stick to the bit of the document I put them on.

-Dormouse (April 03, 2008, 01:02 PM)

And it effectively does this with its note function.

It doesn't seem the cleanest designed or most elegant program, and has an older MSOffice type interface, and has FAR more functions than I want out of it (I can't see me giving up OneNote OR Evernote), but it does do this job when none of the programs I expected to do it have been able to.

And $99 does seem a lot of money. 
But, I notice that it has been on Bitsdujour a few times with a 62% discount. 
I'd certainly buy it at that price - and will probably wait for it to happen again. 

Thanks a lot.

[PPLandry]

As you said, SQLNotes could be used for this. Basically, create a new grid and start entering your outline. Whenever you want to add body text, simply enter it (or drag/drop) in the HTML pane. You can get a combined view by doing an HTML Export (settings mode). You can export the bodies with the outline or without (i.e. just the combined bodies). You can add a tag column to the grid to easily tag outline items (or use the properties pane to do the same thing). You can then search/filter on tags (or date for a toilet paper like view)

Improvements to come (as soon as someone requests it)
1- Toggle between sub-items and body content: often one starts by putting content in the outline (as sub-items) to make the creation process more fluid. With this feature, one-click could move the content from the outline to the item body and back (both use HTML so simple formatting will be preserved)
2- HTML pane to show a combined view of all items enabling editing while preserving the outline. See this thread on outlinersoftware for details: http://www.outliners...com/topics/viewt/680
3- View the body as a sub-item: Body (entered in the HTML pane) could be shown as the first sub-item of an item.

[Armando]

Why do I not want to use Word? Well, it is just too slow and big and cumbersome for something that is fundamentally simple. I don't need all the formatting and collaborating etc etc functions for this task. I've given up actually typing in Word for the same reason. It's like going out to play tennis in an overcoat and waterproof. That's the first reason.

-Dormouse (April 03, 2008, 01:02 PM)

OK, I didn’t know you didn’t want to use word… But, regarding slowness etc., I wonder what are your computer specs like because on my computers (even on my other more than 6 years old laptop) MS Word 2003 is never really slow... and I have some pretty damn big documents going well over 600 pages, with tables, pictures, etc. Of all the word processors available Word 2003 (NOT 2007) is the one that handles huge documents the most gracefully. It’s not perfect, but I found others to be slower. And regarding formatting etc., I don’t care too much if Word has all kinds of options I rarely use; they’re just there and I generally don’t use them, and if I do happen to need them, I’m usually quite happy they’re there -- eg : one feature that I use A LOT in my own papers is the “comments” feature. I can’t imagine that a writer could live without some ways of inserting notes in his/her writing (and I see that this is one of the features you’re looking for).

(BTW PageFour is a great software. But the feature set wasn’t enough for me to justify buying it.  There are also software that are better at Outlining IMO.)

I think the basic problem is that Word confounds the use of headings with the idea of outlining.

-Dormouse (April 03, 2008, 01:02 PM)

You’re right, but only 3/4 right in a way since you can easily have “headings” that  won’t be shown in the outline/map — the “only” problem is that I don’t think that you’d be able to have "outline headings" that would be invisible in the actual document.

Ideally, I'd be able to add little yellow stickies too that would stick to the bit of the document I put them on. And tagging (and the ability to select and cut and paste by tag would be good - something I've not yet managed in OneNote) + the usual highlighting and comments options. But just the fast simple bit would do.

-Dormouse (April 03, 2008, 01:02 PM)

Yes. Like I said In MS Word, for other organizing purpose I use notes (comments) abundantly.  And I there’s one thing that I love about the way comment are managed in words and NOT in other word Processors : you can have them in the “reviewing pane” at the bottom of the window (and not in bubbles in the margin…. yuk)

I don't find the document map especially helpful because you can't do anything with it except look and navigate around the document.

-Dormouse (April 03, 2008, 01:02 PM)

Yes. But, as you know, you just need to switch between Outline view and Print view when you need to move stuff around. It’s not exactly as smooth as in an outliner (I’m always afraid that bits of texts won’t follow the sections moves…) but it works pretty well.

I do use OO - and maybe I ought to try how well it does outlining, but somehow I doubt if it will be better.

-Dormouse (April 03, 2008, 01:02 PM)

IMO OO.org’s outlining is not bad at all. It’s just not as good as Word’s…

The reason I want to see the bodytext alone while I am working is that is what the final copy will look like. I will just be confused by having headings appear inside paragraphs. And really this is a task I want to be able to focus my concentration on without distractions on the screen.

-Dormouse (April 03, 2008, 01:02 PM)

That’s a good point. I confess that I’ve just “learned” to live with the “should be invisible” headings in my texts! But it would certainly be more convenient to be able to make them disappear when they’re not necessary. SQLnotes would probably allow to hide or see the actual “item titles”(or even hide some levels) and just see the what’s in the body or the HtmlPane in the html export. I just haven’t tried… yet. (But I’ll keep discussion about SQLnotes features etc. for the SQLnotes thread… )

I'm not convinced that OneNote will be better for this than Word. Possibly just different advantages and disadvantages.

-Dormouse (April 03, 2008, 01:02 PM)

I’ve tried using OneNote and I still wonder what “everybody” loves so much about it.  True : its interface is very pleasing, it works well with tablet PCs, it can be used for many other things other than just writing documents, etc.
I’ve really tried using and liking it, but I dislike the way it stores the data, and I find it way more complicated to use than Word for big document structures — all these sections, section groups, pages, etc. wow : flat view, anybody ? where’s that feature? How do you get that “unified view” of all the data in a notebook? I also find it much less powerful than other solutions for storing, structuring and filtering all kinds of data. A lot of people that I respect tremendously here in DC swear by it though… so it must be VERY good for certain people. I probably didn’t try to use it for the right stuff.

Ultra Recall will allow for the first - Show Combined Text for Multiple Selections - but may not meet your second criteria.

-ashwken (April 03, 2008, 11:19 AM)

When I tested Ultra Recall a while ago, I was interested in that feature too (Show Combined Text for Multiple Selections) and it was a big deception. Not too sexy formatting wise, and I hated the whole process of importing my documents in Ultra recall.  Also, exporting the unified view, if I recall correctly (ahem) was also not an easy task. I think I never succeeded! Other Ultra Recall longtime users could probably say more though…
I think Ultra Recall was one of the last thing I tried before coming back to Word… (and Outlook for my task, calendar, etc.!)

Too bad Ecco Pro died ten years ago. It was the greatest note and outliner app ever. Why no one ever coded something similar I'll never know.

-zridling (April 03, 2008, 09:35 AM)

I personally prefer SQLNotes by far. And, following Pierre’s (PPLandry) post , I’ll end by saying that SQLNotes will probably be what I’ll be using for the kind of task you’re describing — it could potentially do everything that Word does, but with much better Outlining, great tagging, and the possibility to indefinitely reorganize, clone, split, etc. information. I’m just waiting for the coming MS word integration and the 3 features Pierre just presented ! )  (Pierre… ; Here’s the request you're looking for ) Of course, only after trying to use SQLnotes to structure long documents in real life situations will I be able to say for sure whether it’s my preferred solution… (I already use SQLnotes for very different tasks… But for a long document, I’d currently miss the “unified view feature” — yes it’d probably be possible to export as html, but… I sometimes need that view as I work and play with the structure.

(PS … And there’s one thing that I find hard to find in any Outliner but that’s sooooo convenient when I write in Word : zoom Out/zoom in.)

[Dormouse]

create a new grid and start entering your outline. Whenever you want to add body text, simply enter it (or drag/drop) in the HTML pane.

-PPLandry (April 03, 2008, 05:50 PM)

Yes, this worked fine.

You can get a combined view by doing an HTML Export (settings mode). You can export the bodies with the outline or without (i.e. just the combined bodies). You can add a tag column to the grid to easily tag outline items (or use the properties pane to do the same thing). You can then search/filter on tags (or date for a toilet paper like view)

-PPLandry (April 03, 2008, 05:50 PM)

I didn't manage this. Didn't work out the HTML Export (settings mode); I'm sure it will be easy enough when I get into the available info/forums etc.

I promise I have every intention of giving some serious time to getting into SQLnotes at some point. It still feels a bit big for this task, and I'd also want to change the grid positions, colours etc. I might wait for developments on the Word front. It certainly feels as if SQLnotes will be very useful once I understand it (and even better once it is fully developed).

All the extra suggested features seemed good.

[Dormouse]

Armando - I did write a detailed response, but it disappeared when I carelessly brushed against a key that closed the browser. I determined then to decide on a text editor (with autosave & outlining) that I'd use for most letters, posts, reports etc before I started on it again.

Went back through those I'd already looked at and also some I hadn't tried before. I discovered that TreeDBNotes (free version) is nicely configurable as an editor AND has the facility to do what I wanted in the first place - a two pane outliner/text editor with a hierarchical outline tree on the left and a text pane on the right. With the ability to see all the text from selected nodes together - either in the text pane or another. And the ability to re-order the tree using drag and drop.

Also noticed that the Pro version had been on GAOTD last year 

I'll get back to the response soon.

[Dormouse]

OK, I didn’t know you didn’t want to use word… But, regarding slowness etc., I wonder what are your computer specs like because on my computers (even on my other more than 6 years old laptop) MS Word 2003 is never really slow... and I have some pretty damn big documents going well over 600 pages, with tables, pictures, etc.

-Armando (April 03, 2008, 08:04 PM)

I'm not against Word; I do use it and will continue to use it (at least until I move to Linux completely in post XP Pro days). But I do find it slow compared to a simple text editor. Slow to load, slow to switch documents and with a lot of stuff on the screen that I don't want when I'm just writing or editing text. I have an Core2Duo, so it should be fast enough. I did think I might end up continuing to use Word for this task until I found TreeDBNotes. Using it means that I will probably close it if I'm not using it whereas I tend to leave Word on to avoid the loading lag.

Of all the word processors available Word 2003 (NOT 2007) is the one that handles huge documents the most gracefully. It’s not perfect, but I found others to be slower. And regarding formatting etc., I don’t care too much if Word has all kinds of options I rarely use; they’re just there and I generally don’t use them, and if I do happen to need them, I’m usually quite happy they’re there -- eg : one feature that I use A LOT in my own papers is the “comments” feature. I can’t imagine that a writer could live without some ways of inserting notes in his/her writing (and I see that this is one of the features you’re looking for).

-Armando (April 03, 2008, 08:04 PM)

I'll certainly continue to use Word as a WP and would expect to put the rearranged text back into Word at the end for formatting, comments etc. I'm going to continue trying 2007. I do find it harder going atm, but that might improve. I prefer the interface generally, though the button choices may not be those I would have made - but then that can be changed (I hope). Still haven't found the Document Map view.

(BTW PageFour is a great software. But the feature set wasn’t enough for me to justify buying it.  There are also software that are better at Outlining IMO.)

-Armando (April 03, 2008, 08:04 PM)

This is pretty much what I thought, though I have found that TreeDBNotes actually seems faster as an editor. atm, I'm not sure what PageFour has over the free version of TreeDBNotes.

Yes. Like I said In MS Word, for other organizing purpose I use notes (comments) abundantly.  And I there’s one thing that I love about the way comment are managed in words and NOT in other word Processors : you can have them in the “reviewing pane” at the bottom of the window (and not in bubbles in the margin…. yuk)

-Armando (April 03, 2008, 08:04 PM)

I'm not so bothered about the position of the comments, though I'd like the option of making them as obvious as a sticky - can really do that with highlighting I suppose.

The reason I want to see the bodytext alone while I am working is that is what the final copy will look like. I will just be confused by having headings appear inside paragraphs. And really this is a task I want to be able to focus my concentration on without distractions on the screen.

-Dormouse (April 03, 2008, 01:02 PM)

That’s a good point. I confess that I’ve just “learned” to live with the “should be invisible” headings in my texts! But it would certainly be more convenient to be able to make them disappear when they’re not necessary.

-Armando (April 03, 2008, 08:04 PM)

TreeDBNotes does this fine.

I’ve tried using OneNote and I still wonder what “everybody” loves so much about it.  True : its interface is very pleasing, it works well with tablet PCs, it can be used for many other things other than just writing documents, etc.
I’ve really tried using and liking it, but I dislike the way it stores the data, and I find it way more complicated to use than Word for big document structures — all these sections, section groups, pages, etc. wow : flat view, anybody ? where’s that feature? How do you get that “unified view” of all the data in a notebook? I also find it much less powerful than other solutions for storing, structuring and filtering all kinds of data. A lot of people that I respect tremendously here in DC swear by it though… so it must be VERY good for certain people. I probably didn’t try to use it for the right stuff.

-Armando (April 03, 2008, 08:04 PM)

I just like the interface, the connectivity with the Office Suite (though it does not seem to share the same understanding of outline levels as Word - at least they don't transfer correctly), and using it for gathering and structuring info for a project. I find Evernote much better for gathering unorganised snippets and info. You can get a plugin that gives you the flat, treeview you want, though only 3 levels of a hierarchy (notebooks, sections, pages).

When I tested Ultra Recall a while ago, I was interested in that feature too (Show Combined Text for Multiple Selections) and it was a big deception. Not too sexy formatting wise, and I hated the whole process of importing my documents in Ultra recall.  Also, exporting the unified view, if I recall correctly (ahem) was also not an easy task. I think I never succeeded! Other Ultra Recall longtime users could probably say more though…

-Armando (April 03, 2008, 08:04 PM)

I was just going to cut and paste info in and out, and did not seem to have a problem with using the Combined Text for Multiple Selection feature. Didn't like the interface that much, though. And too big a program just for this task really. And I think I've found a better solution now anyway.

I’ll end by saying that SQLNotes will probably be what I’ll be using for the kind of task you’re describing — it could potentially do everything that Word does, but with much better Outlining, great tagging, and the possibility to indefinitely reorganize, clone, split, etc. information. I’m just waiting for the coming MS word integration

 Of course, only after trying to use SQLnotes to structure long documents in real life situations will I be able to say for sure whether it’s my preferred solution… (I already use SQLnotes for very different tasks… But for a long document, I’d currently miss the “unified view feature” — yes it’d probably be possible to export as html, but… I sometimes need that view as I work and play with the structure.

(PS … And there’s one thing that I find hard to find in any Outliner but that’s sooooo convenient when I write in Word : zoom Out/zoom in.)

-Armando (April 03, 2008, 08:04 PM)

I do agree about the Zoom, but mostly I just want it at one level - usually quite big - and select all and change font size isn't too bad a workaround.

I do see the attraction of SQLnotes and see that if you use it for a lot of things that it will be easier to use and you amy use it for nearly everything. I will certainly go into it in more detail at some stage. My preferred programs though are very simple and very fast and designed for the job in hand and this is important for something like a text editor.