The worst thing about Macs

[bassclarinetl2]

"Grandpa, what did people fight about when you were growing up?"

"Which computer was best.  Some people liked PCs and others, the Mac.  They argued about it all the time."

"What's a computer?"

"Tell you later, pumpkin.  Now, plug yourself in for dinner and afterwards I'll download you a story..."

-Ralf Maximus (October 11, 2007, 08:42 PM)

Goodbye, Good Luck, And Amen

[JohnFredC]

Most people I know who have Macs have zero issues with them.  Zero.  They just work.

On the other hand, how they live with that squirmy little "dock", all those stinkin' floating toolbars, only one menu at the top of the screen (not attached to the current window), Safari (ugh!), and no Total Commander (gasp!), I have no idea.

[Renegade]

Most people that I know that have Macs know how to... Wait a second! They don't know how to do anything on a computer! 

Ok - truthfully - most people that I know that have Macs know how to use a Word processor, email, surf, play music/movies and look at pictures. Not much more. I am not kidding. Really. Honestly. Ok - maybe a couple of them can crop pictures on a Mac or resize them. With help. 

I don't know if I know anyone that uses Windows. Windows users don't wear their OS on their sleeves and trumpet it out at every chance they have, so I may not know any Windows users.

[Ralf Maximus]

This is not intended as Mac criticism, just an observation...

Most Mac users I know treat their computers as an appliance.  They use three or four programs heavily but refrain from tinkering with the software guts.  They are Good Users.

Most PC users (except for my 77 year old Dad) can't leave Windows alone.  They mess with it.  Install stuff, uninstall stuff, reinstall it again in a different place.  They swap video cards every year or so.  I've seen some PCs that had so much crap plugged into them they looked like a christmas tree.  These folks are Naughty Users, straining the limits of what they have.

Of course, there are opposites in each group that prove the rule... but this is what I have seen.

[Darwin]

These folks are Naughty Users, straining the limits of what they have.

-Ralf Maximus (October 17, 2007, 03:40 PM)

Darwin is a Naughty User 

[Renegade]

These folks are Naughty Users, straining the limits of what they have.

-Ralf Maximus (October 17, 2007, 03:40 PM)

Darwin is a Naughty User 

-Darwin (October 17, 2007, 05:55 PM)

And should be spanked! 

[Darwin]

These folks are Naughty Users, straining the limits of what they have.

-Ralf Maximus (October 17, 2007, 03:40 PM)

Darwin is a Naughty User 

-Darwin (October 17, 2007, 05:55 PM)

And should be spanked! 

-Renegade (October 17, 2007, 06:08 PM)

I was hoping someone would make that leap 

[Darwin]

Back on topic, Jason Cross has made a follow up posting on this topic. Read it over at Extreme Tech. He basically relates the types of response that he has received since the original article "went live" and samples some of the e-mail that he's received.

[nontroppo]

It is pretty disappointing to see what seem like otherwise intelligent people turning into bigots, whatever their bigotry.

Can't you see the irony of your shallow dismissal of people because you accuse them of doing the same? I can't see much in this thread other than tribal chestbeating and stereotypy. Monkey see, monkey do...

Ralf Maximus: lovely summary from the future!

big·ot (bĭg'ət) n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
A narrow-minded person who is intolerant of beliefs other than his or her own.

or as Ambrose Bierce would quip:

bigot n.
One who is obstinately and zealously attached to an opinion that you do not entertain.

[Darwin]

nontroppo - exactly who are you accusing of being bigoted? Any/all of the posters in this thread or the authors of material that has been linked to from this thread? Or all of the above?

[Ralf Maximus]

I don't read nontroppo's post as being accusatory of anyone posting in the thread.  Instead I assumed it was aimed at the classic Mac vs. PC mindset as depicted in the TV commercials.

[Darwin]

I suspect you're right, Ralf, but I couldn't quite be sure so asked for clarification. Looking back on my post, I edited it so severely that it comes across as rather defensive... 

[nontroppo]

Actually, it is in response to some of the above in this thread, and generally on all the five zillion my tribe is better than yours threads. From this thread:

"Anytime I'm talking to someone and hear that they use a Mac I just cringe and hope"
"i also said to them "if you get a mac i'll never speak to you again". yep, they bought a mac. and yep i don't speak to them anymore."

That smacks of prejudice, and was backed up by several following responses (at least not challenged). If I replace "use a Mac" with "cycle to work", "are black", "drive a 4x4", "like football" or whatever tribal affiliations you want you are simply pre judging groups. But more than that, the general critique made: "they" are so superiorist and smug; and then one smugly prejudges them in the same way you accuse them of treating you.

Several other posts allude to knowing that "most" mac users are this, can't do that, only like this etc; bringing up anecdotal stories which just so happen to confirm the stereotype. I think bashing Apple/green socks/cream cheese is just fine, but stepping it forward and judging people based on that choice in the facile and superficial way done in most of these wars is not. IMO.

[tomos]

I guess when people go "we're great" with the intended implication that "you arent"
one does tend to react to that... 

I've gone back & looked at that link given by icekin -
the one I got a bit offended by his abusive streak - especially against people who use their hands when talking
(especially that because that=me)
But it's still very funny, in spots at least
"I don't know why ##### get so defensive when you call them idiots"

&
in fairness to nudone, I think he has this ironical streak ... 

[Armando]

I don’t really completely agree with some of the posts in this thread — some might be overly harsh... maybe?? maybe not... — but, at the same time, I think that they’re more funny than serious. Let’s lighten up... : it’s not about woman/man, race1/race2, etc. It’s just about computer users using OS1/OS2/OS3! Racism comparisons are a bit "farfetched" in this case, I find. The fear of hurting people’s feeling  shouldn’t stop one from expressing (and mostly in a funny and not that serious way, I believe) what  one doesn’t like about macs or mac fanfoys.

nontroppo, Would’ve you reacted the same id you were not using a mac? Or do  you just feel this waybecause… you identify with your…  mac… just kidding. 

My Girlfriend boughy a mac. I still talk to her. But I refuse to talk to her mac. (I’ actually jealous because she treats her much better than me )

PS :oups... wrote this post simultaneously to Tomos

[Darwin]

Thanks for clarifying that for me, nontroppo. I don't feel your passion about this but concede your point. I view the thread in the vein that Armando outlines above andI sincerely hope that you're not arguing that all "five zillion my tribe is better than yours threads" are Windows-centric (in my opinion, both sides give as good as they get) and that your issue is with the "classic Mac vs. PC mindset as depicted in the TV commercials", as Ralf suggests.

[Carol Haynes]

Several other posts allude to knowing that "most" mac users are this, can't do that, only like this etc; bringing up anecdotal stories which just so happen to confirm the stereotype.

-nontroppo (October 18, 2007, 04:50 PM)

I presume I am one of the posters referred to by this comment. Oh well it has been my experience of Mac users for many years. I spent 7 years managing networks of PCs and Macs side by side as well as mini-computers and other netorks. I did use one anecdote to illustrate my point but I would say that of the people I have worked with over the years the Mac zealots are definitely religious about their computer. Not all users are zealots but there is a much higher proportion in the Mac camp than Windows, and Linux zealots can be pretty rabid too (try reading any thread on ZDNET, on any topic and I guarantee that before the 10th post someone will say UBUNTU will solve all your problems).

I would say that in providing support I did more than my fair share supporting Macs and it was always harder because when Macs have errors they are incredibly cryptic, there is little or no documentation and you can't ask the user base for help - they either say that can't possibly happen as Macs are so wonderful you never see an error or they just scratch their head and say they don't know (and that includes Apple's own tech guys). Having said that the majority of support was generally very similar to Windows support at the "this is how you turn off the Caps Lock" level.

My biggest confusion is that there are so many Mac users out there. The Mac these days is pretty much aimed at two markets: home users with more money than sense (who think iPhoto is the greatest app in the world 'cos it can play music while it gives a slide show) and the professional market.

The wealthy home market also thinks the iPod is the only MP3 player worth having, iPhones are pretty neat and are generally conned by any company who has the bright idea of putting "i" in front of their product into thinking that it was designed by Apple (like the BBC iPlayer - which doesn't even work on Mac or Linux).

The professional market has a case for paying premium prices for hardware and software (as they do on Windows machines too) because they have very specific tasks in mind. A lot of Mac users still think Windows is in the dark ages because back at Windows 3.1 Font rendering was total crap - they just don't realise that Windows now runs almost all the core apps that Power Mac users actually need.

If you read my other posts you will know I don't bow down to Windows or Linux with religious zeal either.

I'm not so much prejudiced when it comes to Mac users but more genuinely confused why anyone would pay twice as much for a machine that is half the spec, can't be easily upgraded, has little user base and doesn't have an extensive catalogue of software. I can only assume it is a victory of style over common sense. If they don't want to use Windows I don't really understand why they don't go for Linux - which at least has the virtues of being free, flexibilty and it runs on cheap hardware. MacOS is pretty much Linux (OK BSD) anyway!

I don't begrudge my friend her ageing Mac - it gives her a great deal of pleasure to see something in her lounge that looks like it came straight of the 1960s film of "War of the Worlds". It does display her photo album very nicely on a 15" screen with a Bach accompaniment and she has iTunes so it is easy to user her iPod! Apart from email she does very little else - she now wants a Macbook so she can also do this in bed. C'est la vie ...

[nontroppo]

tomos: well I'd prefer it if nudone was streaking ironically... 

fear of hurting people’s feeling  shouldn’t stop one from expressing (and mostly in a funny and not that serious way, I believe) what  one doesn’t like about macs or mac fanfoys.

-Armando (October 18, 2007, 06:19 PM)

Absolutely fine, fanboys deserve to get teased. But this is deeper than that. Playing with stereotypes is fun, really believing in them isn't.

nontroppo, Would’ve you reacted the same id you were not using a mac? Or do  you just feel this waybecause… you identify with your…  mac… just kidding. 

-Armando (October 18, 2007, 06:19 PM)

I've used PCs since MSDOS (an Amiga before that), riding along through Windows 3.11 till XP. I still use XP everyday in VMWare Fusion. I *am* a Windows user, it is where most of my expertise lies. I still know my way through the dark corridors of the registry, and fix Windows machines regularly. I get annoyed when user X insults user Y based on fallacies and ignorance, whatever X or Y may be. I'm a long standing Opera user (migrating from Netscape via Firebird), and stupid browser fans annoy me whatever their affiliation (indeed, I cringe more when it is an Opera user responsible for such idiocy, but they don't speak for anyone other than themselves, part of what is reflected in the original article this thread is about).

My Girlfriend boughy a mac. I still talk to her. But I refuse to talk to her mac. (I’ actually jealous because she treats her much better than me )

Thanks for clarifying that for me, nontroppo. I don't feel your passion about this but concede your point. I view the thread in the vein that Armando outlines above andI sincerely hope that you're not arguing that all "five zillion my tribe is better than yours threads" are Windows-centric (in my opinion, both sides give as good as they get) and that your issue is with the "classic Mac vs. PC mindset as depicted in the TV commercials", as Ralf suggests.

-Darwin (October 18, 2007, 06:28 PM)

Zealots on all sides get my ire. Those mac vs. pc adverts are pretty stupid, but they are marketing (i.e. commercially driven). What ruffles me is real flesh-n-bone people deciding all of the other tribe are X or Y; again whether they are Mac, PC, siberian hamsters, 4x4 owners.

Not all users are zealots but there is a much higher proportion in the Mac camp than Windows, and Linux zealots can be pretty rabid too (try reading any thread on ZDNET, on any topic and I guarantee that before the 10th post someone will say UBUNTU will solve all your problems).

-Carol Haynes (October 18, 2007, 06:38 PM)

Could you give me precise values, both in absolute numbers and relative percentages please?  Because otherwise I'd be tempted to just say it is no more than one tribal opinion amid a sea of other tribal opinions.

I'm not so much prejudiced when it comes to Mac users but more genuinely confused why anyone would pay twice as much for a machine that is half the spec, can't be easily upgraded, has little user base and doesn't have an extensive catalogue of software. I can only assume it is a victory of style over common sense. If they don't want to use Windows I don't really understand why they don't go for Linux - which at least has the virtues of being free, flexibilty and it runs on cheap hardware. MacOS is pretty much Linux (OK BSD) anyway!

-Carol Haynes (October 18, 2007, 06:38 PM)

Because you don't seem to understand about the platform? You have made sweeping generalisations about there only being two types of Mac markets, describing them as ignorant (home users) or arrogant (professionals), then a reductive cost-benefit that encapsulates little of anything substantial. It *does* make sense to lots of people who are neither ignorant or arrogant. Increasing numbers of my department are switching over to Apple hardware because it is more cost efficient to the University (contracts with Dell only other option), and OS X really is an elegant and powerful OS that is more than a repackaged Ubuntu. If it doesn't suit you personally, thats fine, but your reductio ad absurdum generalisation is just that, absurd.

By the way, my Macbook is the best Laptop I've owned (IBM Thinkpad, Dell, and Acer being the previous competition), and it isn't because I'm some middle-class lobotomised zombie with heavy pockets...

[Darwin]

By the way, my Macbook is the best Laptop I've owned (IBM Thinkpad, Dell, and Acer being the previous competition), and it isn't because I'm some middle-class lobotomised zombie with heavy pockets...

 

[Armando]

By the way, my Macbook is the best Laptop I've owned (IBM Thinkpad, Dell, and Acer being the previous competition), and it isn't because I'm some middle-class lobotomised zombie with heavy pockets...

-nontroppo (October 18, 2007, 08:34 PM)

Yes, it's a nice machine. If you can get the right price for it (special academic pricing, etc.), it's (was?) actually pretty good for the price. That was 4-5 months ago, I think; I haven't really checked today's prices... I’m not so sure it’s that much of a nice “deal” (a bit of  a strong word  in that case, maybe) anymore.

I *am* a Windows user, it is where most of my expertise lies.

-nontroppo (October 18, 2007, 08:34 PM)

Of course, I knew that from your posts in other threads... that's why I dared to tease you.

I must say that, like Carol, I find that there seems to be a higher proportion of “annoying/arrogant computer illiterates” in the Mac user pool, and a lot of blind religiosity (funny Carol mentioned iPhoto — I had a funny iPhoto conversation yesterday; my friend was just litteraly in awe with iPhoto). Yes, that's been my impression too. It is not, of course, a scientific survey, but it’s been like that approximately... 95.0122% of the time. Approximately What can I say!!! The other 4,98779999999999% ? I do have some "Mac owner" friends who know a lot  (I'm starting to sound like Stephen Colbert or someone like that). We all do. One's a sys admin, and the other one knows how to code (…a bit).  And they… don’t like PCs 9a euphemism). Don’t even get them started...

My favorite  “Mac friend” () can usually only say one thing to me -- very seriously -- if I ever mention computer problems : get a Mac! Now that's very  helpful, especially considering that I'm always the one "fixing" my girlfriend's Mac (ok: I said I didn't talk to the sexy thing... but I confess : I do touch it once in a while -- and it's damn hot… not even metaphorically speaking...).  I’d have 2 Macs to fix. No thanks.

Last week, one of my colleagues who teach in University of Ottawa asked me if he could run a PC software called Pajek on his mac...  Guessed what I replied ?

Nope...I actually tried to help him... 

[Ralf Maximus]

I think humans have a tendency to generalize and segregate based on EVERYTHING.  The "my computer is better than yours" thing is the most convenient and obvious example, because we're all so focused on technology around here.

Gear-heads fight over Chevy vs. Ford, and both camps hate the Japanese cars.

Modern American politics is an exercise in vilifying the other side.

Thog discovered fire 500,000 years ago, and the next day his tribe made fun of the losers who ate their food raw.

The odd thing is, this discrimination ability we share is part of what makes us so creative and successful.  The ability to note differences and act upon them in our environment goes to the core of our existence.  We are, literally, wired in our DNA to play the "one of these things is not like the other" game better than any other creature we know of.  To deny it is silly. 

However, if we could learn to recognize when it becomes overactive and apply the brakes... that would be a very good thing indeed.

And Macs suck.

[icekin]

I guess when people go "we're great" with the intended implication that "you arent"
one does tend to react to that... 

I've gone back & looked at that link given by icekin -
the one I got a bit offended by his abusive streak - especially against people who use their hands when talking
(especially that because that=me)
But it's still very funny, in spots at least

-tomos (October 18, 2007, 06:08 PM)

I use my hands too, so I don't entirely agree with everything that was said on that page. I just found some of it to be funny.

As for Apple, I wouldn't mind them so much if they were cheaper and offered more + better features. I realized that some people (e.g. academics) get good pricing on Apple products, but for everyone else it seems a rip off. Their keyboard has no separate del, home, insert pg up and pg down keys. The touchpad has only one button. The speakers are very below par. Most notebooks in that price range come with altec lansing speakers on board (e.g. Toshibas).

Lastly, its a 'one size fits all' solution, at least the mac desktops are. Can't customize without blowing a hole in the wallet.

[Carol Haynes]

Because you don't seem to understand about the platform? You have made sweeping generalisations about there only being two types of Mac markets, describing them as ignorant (home users) or arrogant (professionals), then a reductive cost-benefit that encapsulates little of anything substantial. It *does* make sense to lots of people who are neither ignorant or arrogant. Increasing numbers of my department are switching over to Apple hardware because it is more cost efficient to the University (contracts with Dell only other option), and OS X really is an elegant and powerful OS that is more than a repackaged Ubuntu. If it doesn't suit you personally, thats fine, but your reductio ad absurdum generalisation is just that, absurd.

Who said 'arrogant' I certainly didn't. In fact I said the opposite - some professionals do have justification both in terms of finance and workflow to CHOOSE Mac (though I would argue that many make the choice based on outdated knowledge of the effectiveness of alternative operating systems). Home users seem (in my experience) to choose Mac because it looks pretty rather than  because it has any functional advantage.

All I said was that if that is what they want fine, but the choice is very difficult to justify on cost or functionality.

By the way OSX is a repackaged BSD OS - OK they have added a few bits and pieces here and there and changed the look and feel.

If uinversities get a good deal on Apple products that's great - go for it. Unfortunately it doesn't necessarily prepare people for the real world where only about 8% of computers in use are Apple - unless students all plan to do graphic design these days!

[tomos]

I use my hands too, so I don't entirely agree with everything that was said on that page. I just found some of it to be funny.

-icekin (October 19, 2007, 02:41 AM)

yeah,
first time round I did get pissed off about it but when Darwin said he laughed especially at #2
I went back for another look -
I did laugh out loud at that line:

"I don't know why ##### get so defensive when you call them idiots"

I took out the "mac user" bit & put in ##### cause I think that's what''s going on in general with the mac vs. PC thing
& unfortunately that's what's going on here a bit...

[tomos]

what I'm trying to say in my very roundabout manner is -
relax a bit, nontroppo
EDIT: I really do think you have a point but as Amando says maybe it was overstated &
then giving everyone such a hard time doesnt help ...

my 2 cents