Author Topic: Jutoh 3, recently followed by the release of Scrivener 3 Windows from beta (Read 6862 times)

Dormouse · « **on:** April 02, 2021, 08:40 AM »

I'd missed the fact that Jutohhas been upgraded from 2 to 3, with relatively frequent updates recently. Haven't had a chance to check it out yet, but noticed that it seems to incorporate the storyboard design from Writer's Cafe. In the back of my mind I'm harbouring the question of whether it could be used as a simple converter between a variety of formats that I use, which could save me a tad of aggravation if it does.

I had thought that Writer's Cafe had stopped development but there were updates in 2019. I'd also somehow grown the idea that Harriet Smart (the writer wife of the developer of Jutoh and Writer's Cafe) had stopped writing, but that's not true either. It does look as if Jutoh is being positioned as the primary program though, incorporating some features from WC.

Dormouse · « **Reply #1 on:** April 03, 2021, 04:43 AM »

I don't know what it is with the 3s. Just remembered that AeonTimeline 3 ought to be coming soon, though my promised invitation to the beta has still not arrived. I'm particularly looking forward to trying out the spreadsheet view in that.

I've now had a brief look at Jutoh. I noticed that some of the documentation advice references Amazon practices in 2013 and that the PDF of the guide splits some sentences across lines creating little groups of orphans. Doesn't inspire confidence in a program designed to make tidying and formatting easy. The program itself seems fine and functions clearly explained. 3 can be used with a 2 licence; the extra features can be turned for the session to allow users to try them out. Probably worth the upgrade for people who use it.

Not sure about the creative features added (storyboard etc) that originated in Writer's Cafe. Feels random and incomplete as it stands. Documentation implies that the whole writing process can be contained in Jutoh, but the editor feels insufficient to me. Possibly an indication of a direction of travel; possibly an acceptance that some people prefer to write with editors that have no creative or compiling/formatting features.

I didn't probe the storyboard much, but diverted onto Writer's Cafe which has more of those features (eg pinboard). I'm likely to have closer look at both, since I am one of those who prefer to write with editors that have no visual or creative features and they're something I miss often. I've tried many solutions but always drift away as I rediscover that the overall workflow is too rough.

Dormouse · « **Reply #2 on:** April 04, 2021, 03:47 AM »

I didn't probe the storyboard much, but diverted onto Writer's Cafe which has more of those features (eg pinboard)
-Dormouse (April 03, 2021, 04:43 AM)

The Writer's Cafe Storylines feature isn't exactly the same as the Jutoh storyboard. It looks the same but isn't set up the same. I think I will do a little comparison and review. And add in AeonTimeline 3 if that comes. With the Scrivener Corkboard and spreadsheets and anything else that comes to mind.

I keep sticking on one project. I'd like to give it up, but my brain refuses to leave it alone. 'Creative' features I think is a misnomer: they're as much about organisation and reorganisation as creation. And nothing flows when it needs to be redone. So it will be interesting to see if any of these help. I believe I already know that the Corkboard and spreadsheets approach won't work, but it's worth clarifying why. Not sure whether I should add outlining (specifically playing about with multiple outlines). The big difference between the Scrivener Corkboard and the Jutoh and Writer's Cafe features is that they have a tabular, columns and rows, construction which can be very helpful for organisation, where a freeform Corkboard is easier for creation. It might take me a while to work out how best to use it; there are chapters and scenes, and character arc examples with columns representing the book or time sequence, but I assume others are possible.

Dormouse · « **Reply #3 on:** April 05, 2021, 02:33 AM »

little comparison and review
-Dormouse (April 04, 2021, 03:47 AM)

Preparing list:

Jutoh Storyboard
Writer's Cafe StoryLines
~~Writer's Cafe Pinboard~~
~~Scrivener Corkboard~~
~~Scapple~~
Write It Now Story Board
Write It Now Storyline Editor
~~DocxManager+Writage+Word~~
~~AeonTimeline 3~~
~~Draw.io; Bubbl.us (examples of diagram/mindmap approach)~~
~~Plottr (recommended by some, seems too rigid at first glance)~~
~~Notezilla~~
~~Pen and paper or digital pen and paper~~
~~Outlining~~
~~Spreadsheet~~
Mindomo - part done

I'll add others as they occur to me if I think they'll add a new dimension rather than extra detail.

wraith808 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 05, 2021, 03:51 PM »

There's also DocXManager (formerly Writing Outliner) - https://docxmanager.com/

Dormouse · « **Reply #5 on:** April 06, 2021, 03:13 AM »

Ha! Yes. Thanks. It certainly wasn't something that sprang to my mind, and I don't remember ever hearing about it before. Though I might have forgotten.
And it's certainly from a different dimension.

wraith808 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 06, 2021, 11:40 PM »

Ha! Yes. Thanks. It certainly wasn't something that sprang to my mind, and I don't remember ever hearing about it before. Though I might have forgotten.
And it's certainly from a different dimension.
-Dormouse (April 06, 2021, 03:13 AM)

Writing Outliner had been out for a while (and was very useful as with Scrivener and other mediums, I'd have to export and get it in Word format for submission, but being able to just do it in Word was great). He dropped it for a while for a rewrite, had problems but released the new version, then immediately got started on this, which then replaced Writing Outliner. For some reason, this one never took off for me.

Dormouse · « **Reply #7 on:** April 07, 2021, 08:20 AM »

That makes complete sense.
I've always done my best to avoid writing in Word, but sometimes it was just easier to do that than the whole export-import-format thing. And the primitive outlining etc was a thorn in the side then. Though the add-ins I looked at seemed more effort than they were worth.

FWIW I've been playing around with Jutoh's Storyboard. Succession of thoughts going 'Wow' and 'Wow' and 'Wow!'. Very complex and finicky to configure unless you just go with default settings, but can be saved as a template once done. And now, having developed some understanding of what it can do, I have to think about what use can be made of it.
Supposed to be simpler than the Writer's Cafe Storylines, but also more flexible.

Dormouse · « **Reply #8 on:** April 08, 2021, 08:15 AM »

DocXManager
-wraith808 (April 05, 2021, 03:51 PM)

I've added it to the list. With Writage.
Not a cheap combo at $49 (standard) + $29 + Word, but might suit those familiar with or stuck with Word.

wraith808 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 08, 2021, 12:41 PM »

Oh Writage is the one that lets you write in Markdown in Word, right?

Dormouse · « **Reply #10 on:** April 08, 2021, 01:30 PM »

Yes. I added it because markdown might be important for some potential users. And I thought it was worth checking whether it would interfere with DocxManager.

Dormouse · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2021, 09:03 AM »

I'll put up what I have done so far later, and then add to it as I go down the list.

I've just had my invitation to Timeline 3. Impressed on a very brief inspection, and the spreadsheet pane is very helpful. I expect to add it as a core tool to my own workflow. But it is highly complex and unlikely to be worth using for anything simpler.

Also starting to use Mindomo, which is quite complex too, but with good import/export (including xlsx, csv, md, txt). So it seems as if Mindomo, Obsidian and Timeline could be a good combo.
But I'm only just learning how best to use Obsidian in development, and adding another two unfamiliar tools is no way to tackle a current problem so I'll let myself learn slowly and use something simpler for now.

wraith808 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2021, 02:57 PM »

I've just had my invitation to Timeline 3. Impressed on a very brief inspection, and the spreadsheet pane is very helpful. I expect to add it as a core tool to my own workflow. But it is highly complex and unlikely to be worth using for anything simpler.
-Dormouse (April 15, 2021, 09:03 AM)

Thanks for that. I had an invitation earlier, but as my use of Timeline has been limited because of having to use the timeline to set it up and that being a little painful, I'd not taken a look. If they have a new interface to allow you to enter in a different fashion and then just view them along the timeline, it might prove more useful.

Dormouse · « **Reply #13 on:** April 15, 2021, 03:47 PM »

my use of Timeline has been limited because of having to use the timeline to set it up and that being a little painfu
-wraith808 (April 15, 2021, 02:57 PM)

I'd agree with that. v3 looks easier (given I've not tested it at all). I still suspect that you'd only use it for something very detailed unless you like to spend most of your time creating detailed plans. But I've not seen its equal for detailed and complex timelines. For the 0.1% of fiction writers who need them and historians and historical writers.

Dormouse · « **Reply #14 on:** April 17, 2021, 06:39 PM »

I'll put up what I have done so far later, and then add to it as I go down the list.
-Dormouse (April 15, 2021, 09:03 AM)

I've put up a marker in the mini-review section.

Dormouse · « **Reply #15 on:** April 22, 2021, 03:51 PM »

There's also DocXManager (formerly Writing Outliner) - https://docxmanager.com/
-wraith808 (April 05, 2021, 03:51 PM)

I'm afraid I won't be looking at this in detail after all. I downloaded it but found no sign of a dark mode, even though Word is in dark mode on my machine. Nor could I find an easy way to change the colour settings for the various panes.

From what I saw, the corkboard view was very simple and outlining the same as any two pane outliner.

Dormouse · « **Reply #16 on:** April 24, 2021, 05:56 AM »

Review done. Superficial, aimed at my own needs and my own working practices and subject to editing, tweaking and improvement.
But done.
Review

Ath · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2021, 06:17 AM »

Review
-Dormouse (April 24, 2021, 05:56 AM)

Pointing at the start of the thread is probably more useful: Review

Dormouse · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2021, 07:11 AM »

Review
-Dormouse (April 24, 2021, 05:56 AM)
Pointing at the start of the thread is probably more useful: Review
-Ath (April 24, 2021, 06:17 AM)

True. And done. Thanks.

Dormouse · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2021, 11:47 AM »

Review done.
-Dormouse (April 24, 2021, 05:56 AM)

Of course, that's only Part 1 of the process - checking out the tools. The main part - using them - still awaits.
I'll write a summary record of what I do, which tools I use, and why. Just for completeness really. My process will be idiosyncratic I'm sure, and of little interest to anyone else; maybe it will help me in future, especially identifying what didn't work.