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Last post Author Topic: Eudora, Hermes and Pandora - also compared to TheBat! and other email clients  (Read 5494 times)

Steven Avery

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Most of my email play is on:

Verizon mail - grandfathered to AOL. (downloaded by POP)

Runbox (small account, downloaded by POP)

Various Gmail accounts that simply forward to the Verizon-AOL and then any deletion of the Gmail is at leisure, usage is mostly "that day" or if for some reason my home base client is less accessible. It does work well with my iPad .. especially the biz email, or resets of passwords, etc.

==================

Eudora 7, a fantastic email program, is hitting more modern encyrption demands like TSL 1.1 and 1.2.  This means that the original Eudora 7 download will, in some cases, (and increasing) not download mail.  The server will time out, or refuse the connection.

Hermes is a new project built on the Eudora source code, which Qualcomm, after some hesitation, nicely put into the public domain! The main purpose is to fix those areas, like encyrption and certificates, where Eudora might fail. E.g. specific .dlls might be replaced. Other things might be updated, like fonts or emojies.  It is unlikely that much of the core code would be rewritten, since the tools today are very different than 25 years ago. 

(Penelope was a Thunderbird attempt to have a Eudora look-and-feel that went nowhere.)

Pandora is an excellent attempt to make a "Eudora-like" program by a gentleman named Brana. It can be discussed separately. Note that it has the potential to add some features, (e.g. virtual mailboxes would be possible, although I do not expect that they are currently on the road-map).  Feature improvements is very limited for Hermes, since the core code is Eudora.  However, it has recently become ready for prime-time.

And I mostly use Eudora and TheBat!, later in the thread I can explain why I use both.  And I also play with Pandora.

=================================

Quick mention of about ten other email programs.

Other less techie and robust alternatives include eM Client, the more Outlook-type program that some use. Claws Mail is another. Mailbird has proponents.  Postbox too. Thunderbird is still active. SeaMonkey is a minor player, also like Postbox built on Thunderbird. Outlook has its own world (and maybe PIM clones like Essential PIM?) em Client also compares themselves to Mail and LiveMail.

In somewhat of a purist email legacy mode we have Becky!, Pegasus and Poco-Barca, yet each one has its current situation. 

I have tried many of these, and always come back to a Eudora-TheBat! world.

=================================

Information largely from the

Eudora for Windows forum (no archives, I am using my inbox)
http://www.listmoms.net/eudora-win/

Join this for any future updates.

Posts from Ken starting around Feb. 27, 2019.  Ken had improved the Hermes instructions. 
(Also contributions from hoplist, Dave Andrews, and the super-helpful Katrina Knight.)

There is also a check that you have the proper "MS C ++ redistribution".

==================================Y

You can navigate to your Eudora program files folder and check the dates of libeay32.dll, QCSSL.dll, rootcerts.p7b, and ssleay32.dll.  If QCSSL.dll is dated any earlier than Oct. 29, 2018 (or if any of the other 3 files date earlier than Aug. 15, 2018), you don't have what you need to ensure Eudora is working with TLS 1.1 and 1.2, which are increasingly required by mail servers.

Here are some instructions for getting this updated library installed into your Eudora 7.1:

=======================

This is not complicated, simply explained step-by-step,

INSTRUCTIONS FROM JULY 19, 2019 TO MAKE AN EXISTING EUDORA INSTALL TSL-CERTIFICATE UPGRADED USING HERMES TECHNOLOGY

Although the developers working on Hermes haven't yet released that, they HAVE released an updated SSL library for Eudora that you can patch right into your existing copy of Eudora 7.1.  It will (1) resolve a lot of certificate problems, and (2) add support for TLS 1.1 and 1.2, which will keep Eudora working with mail servers that have dropped or will soon drop support for TLS 1.0.

(If you've been using the Stunnel tool specifically to get around this limitation, this updated SSL library will eliminate your need to use that.  It will add support for the missing protocols, while ensuring that everything about your data communication will remain encrypted.)

To install this updated SSL library into your existing Eudora installation:

(Use at your own risk: I am unaffiliated with the Hermes project, but merely a satisfied user trying to make things easier with these instructions.)

1) Download this ZIP file and extract it somewhere:  NOTE: If you downloaded this already but before Oct. 29, 2018, you'll need to download it again now, because the pre-Oct. 29th version wasn't fully functional.
   https://www.dropbox....f9w/HermSSL.zip?dl=1

2) Find your Eudora program files folder, via:
   - Eudora's top menu: Help -> About Eudora -> Click on the word "Application" above the "Visit Web Site" button.  This should launch a folder window with your Eudora program in it, which will include the "Eudora.exe" file.

3) Close the About Eudora box, and Quit Eudora

4) Make backup copies of these 4 files that are in your Eudora program files folder: libeay32.dll, QCSSL.dll, rootcerts.p7b, ssleay32.dll

5) Run vcredist.exe that you extracted in step 1.  You might already have a new enough version of this Microsoft library on your system, in which case it will tell you that and will abort.  That's fine: it means you already have the needed Microsoft library and can proceed to the next step.

6) Copy these new 4 files you extracted in step 1 (libeay32.dll, QCSSL.dll, rootcerts.p7b, ssleay32.dll) into your Eudora program files folder. You'll see they're from 2018 instead of 2006.

7) Start Eudora.

8 ) Attempt to retrieve email and send email with your personality/ies.  Most certificate errors should be gone, and sending and receiving should be functional.

9) Something not working?  Then check your incoming and outgoing mail settings:
   (Your main settings are under Tools->Options->"Checking Mail" and "Sending Mail".  They're additionally in each of your Personalities that you use to send and receive mail: Tools->Personalities, and then for each personality, right click, Properties, and look at both tabs "Generic Properties" and "Incoming Mail".)
   In each of those two places, look at the "Secure Sockets when Sending" / "Secure Sockets when Receiving" dropdown.  If you see "If Available, STARTTLS" or "Required, STARTTLS" in any of those places, some mail servers might need you to change those to "Required, Alternate Port".  If you try changing this, make note of the old setting, in case you need to change it back.
   Try retrieving and sending email again.

10) If you're using a server that has support for TLS 1.1 or 1.2, you can verify that Eudora is now using one of these: Go to each of the two places described in step 9 (i.e. in "Options" and/or as any Personality you've successfully connected with since restarting Eudora).  In each, press the button "Last SSL Info".  On the info window that pops up, find the "SSL version field".  You should see "TLSv1.2" or "TLSv1.1", instead of "TLSv1", which will confirm that the new libraries are now using the new protocols with those servers.


=======================

Sidenote:
A brand-new clean Eudora Install is said by Nicholas Edward Werner-Matavka of Hermes on July 25 to work - with this download:
https://sourceforge....rmsetup.exe/download
(In other words, the necessary file swaps are already included in this installer.)
Ted Walton and Katrina have discussions of using this method on August 5, especially if you are transferring over from one puter to another.

=========================

Free thinking notes

Additional programs I might want to check, for various reasons
https://www.g2.com/p...etitors/alternatives
Chaos Intellect from Rose City (they had Courier in the old days)
Zimbra - (free, open source??)
Good ol Zoho (Salesinbox) and an Amazon Workplace thingy

For other reasons -
Kiwi for Gmail-Gsuite (also Propeller) - reminds me of Streak and NetHunt)
Spike Shift

==========================

ADDED 8:16
Mailspring - pro is $8/mo
Opera Mail
Yahoo Mail (does it have desktop client, probably8 browser only)
iCloud - Apple
AOL

BlueMail in beta
FileOne

collaboration tools like Front and Spike and MailCore might have email embedded.
Other quirkies like KnowMail - Rainloop
Foxmail
Inky
Incredimail

Proton Mail (mentioned for security, not a client, has apps, as do Fastmail, etc)
Runbox (I use this for a special Pop-box)
See Slant and G2

Steven
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 07:06 AM by Steven Avery »

superboyac

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why would you use Eudora and the Bat?  I imagine you might be doing different accounts on each.

Eudora was the first email client i ever used, i think i've written about it here.  In the 90s.  Good program.  then I moved to Pegasus.  And then about 10 years or so, mouser convinced me to use the Bat, and ive been on the bat since.

the Bat is good, very reliable.  But they are stingy on features and will likely NEVER fix or address things that are bothering you.  They have made lik all these major versions over the years with almost no noticeable change.

I've also spent some time with emClient, which is a good outlook-type replacement, but I would not replace outlook with it, no real point.  It has some slick features though.  I use it specifically to manage my cardav sync with my phone etc.  why?  because it wont degrade your contact photos.   if you let android or ios or outlook manage ANY contacts, all your high-res contact photos will become potato quality.  even emclient can only do about 600-700 pixels max.  btw, the bat's contact features are SH!T.  like cmon.  i am so worried one day the bat is just going to go extinct and that will be it for the poweruser email experience.

Steven Avery

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TheBat! has some very good features.  One is fundamental to my usage, virtual mailboxes.  This is like the Linkman keyword metaphor. If I have a biz vendor, or a Bible subject, I can make up a virtual box, and all the email related to that subject are there. No matter how good your filtering, you could never achieve the same. Plus you limit many to x number of days, since you want virtual mailboxes to be 10-100 or 200 emails, and not thousands.

Does anybody else have similar, easy to setup virtual folders?  (Virtual mailboxes in TheBat! you usually set up as a follow-up to a search.)

=============

On the other hand, Eudora (with Hermes files) trumps TheBat! in many ways. TheBat! has glitch and annoyance difficulties you rarely (never) see in Eudora.  The Eudora editor is suburb, and its stability is legendary. It is fun to work with.  Pandora is trying to get there too, buts it does not quite have the comfy feel of Eudora. Hermes will be essentially Eudora, very modestly modified, mainly in areas like certificates and TSL encryption.

So I redirect the more important email from TheBat!, to a Runbox POP box, leaving behind legions of forum mail and stuff unidentified.  I pick it up with Eudora POP download.  I can handle the redundancy, as I generally work out of TheBat! but like having the leaner Eudora mirror.

Ironically, TheBat! redirect filter has a glitch, or I do not understand something, and it redirects too much, when I do not want it too, so I just put that question on  TheBat! forum.

==============

TheBat! has a long history, I think they do some improvement, my kvetch is that they do not search out and fix many petty annoyances. I put that concern on their forum where they were discussing what we want in the new v. 9. (I am on 7.)  I would rather have the dozen or so petty annoyances (including memory errors that you have to click away in certain areas) than add new features. Annoyances show up in areas like color groups, row layout types, and duplication of email boxes in folders, and more. None of them really crimp operations, but they will give a cheezy feel to a purist.

===============
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 09:06 AM by Steven Avery »

rjbull

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Outlook has its own world (and maybe PIM clones like Essential PIM?)

EPIM (at least the Pro version) has its own built-in email client, if that's what you mean.  I haven't tried it, but it's there.

Steven Avery

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Essential PIM was recently on Bits du Jour.  Apparently their Windows to iPad/Android integration is good, according to one comment. Even without any email, that sounds interesting   I am trying it out.

Efficient PIM may also have such integrations, but I do not see an IOS app.
https://reviews.fina....com/p/efficientpim/

Who else?  What works good?

rgdot

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PIMs wise, DoogiePIM has email too, very good in my experience. But as far as emails go the feature list doesn't match dedicated email clients.

Tuxman

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I would probably use Pegasus Mail today if its IMAP configuration wasn't so weird. It's a bit sad that Pegasus 5.0 has been delayed for ... more than a decade now?

I am "mostly" happy with my current e-mail situation (The Bat! on Windows, varying clients on other systems), but, you know, the grass on the other side of the fence...
I did not know that Eudora was still a thing, so I had not tried it even once. I had a short test ride with the HERMES installer linked above. Impressions:

1) Wow, that thing looks outdated. A Windows 3.11 application, very roughly compiled on Windows 98 and not updated since? Yes, that's obvious.
2) A lot of dialogs and "information" pops up. Ugh.
3) I (somehow) like the Lotus-Notes-like look and feel ... but still, ugh.

Steven Avery

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To us Eudora folks, the program is simply a clean machine.  Granted, you do not have many open independent actions/windows on the Taskbar like you do with TheBat!, Thunderbird and some others.

Imap is not an issue to me. Especially not Gmail Imap.  The numbers never seem right. The actions downhill never seem to take uphill. If I have to access my home base email from a juice bar or cafe, I use Teamviewer, but that is very rare, especially as I use Google accounts in special ways (one for personal important finance and stuff, one for biz on Gsuite, one for travel info, etc.)  If I am travelling for a week or three I usually take the time to put the 100 GB or so home base downloads on my laptop.  Granted, every 5 or 10 years I consider an archive method of putting all the old email in its own spot.

I tried Pegasus, I did not keep notes, it is a good program, I just thought it was not up to Eudora on some of the essentials of filtering and searching.  Maybe the editor was not as crisp, and Eudora has incredible stability. Stuff like that. For fun, I could try it again, especially when 5.0 comes out, see the blog post from a few months ago, where Dave explains some health issues that slowed him down (this year, I am putting aside back years). The forum looks good, one gentleman was upset about moderation of even long-time members. It is not super-active like the Eudora community, a decade and more after Eudora ended.

It is possible the Hermes installer has some funky-dunky elements.  It might be crisper to load the latest Version 7 Eudora, and then copy over the four files from Hermes that essentially fix Eudora for encryption/TSL. That is the impression I got from some posts on the Eudora forum. 

btw, the Eudora forum I mentioned does have a pseudo-archive, that is triggered by searching by sending an email with the search terms.  I am trying it out.  And there is a Yahoogroups second forum that is good also.  TheBat! online forum is ok as is a different email forum. Right now I am trying to find out why the redirect action on filters seems to trigger in manual mode when it is only an Inbox-download filter.  This is the type of stuff where TheBat! can be negatively quirky.

The Bat!, with its virtual folders, is my main program.  I don't think I would switch unless there was a similar virtual mailbox implementation somewhere else.  Does anyone know of a try?  I think Courier had permanent searches, that perhaps got updated, which can be more or less the same thing.

Steven
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 07:27 AM by Steven Avery »

superboyac

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TheBat! has some very good features.  One is fundamental to my usage, virtual mailboxes.  This is like the Linkman keyword metaphor. If I have a biz vendor, or a Bible subject, I can make up a virtual box, and all the email related to that subject are there. No matter how good your filtering, you could never achieve the same. Plus you limit many to x number of days, since you want virtual mailboxes to be 10-100 or 200 emails, and not thousands.

Does anybody else have similar, easy to setup virtual folders?  (Virtual mailboxes in TheBat! you usually set up as a follow-up to a search.)

=============

On the other hand, Eudora (with Hermes files) trumps TheBat! in many ways. TheBat! has glitch and annoyance difficulties you rarely (never) see in Eudora.  The Eudora editor is suburb, and its stability is legendary. It is fun to work with.  Pandora is trying to get there too, buts it does not quite have the comfy feel of Eudora. Hermes will be essentially Eudora, very modestly modified, mainly in areas like certificates and TSL encryption.

So I redirect the more important email from TheBat!, to a Runbox POP box, leaving behind legions of forum mail and stuff unidentified.  I pick it up with Eudora POP download.  I can handle the redundancy, as I generally work out of TheBat! but like having the leaner Eudora mirror.

Ironically, TheBat! redirect filter has a glitch, or I do not understand something, and it redirects too much, when I do not want it too, so I just put that question on  TheBat! forum.

==============

TheBat! has a long history, I think they do some improvement, my kvetch is that they do not search out and fix many petty annoyances. I put that concern on their forum where they were discussing what we want in the new v. 9. (I am on 7.)  I would rather have the dozen or so petty annoyances (including memory errors that you have to click away in certain areas) than add new features. Annoyances show up in areas like color groups, row layout types, and duplication of email boxes in folders, and more. None of them really crimp operations, but they will give a cheezy feel to a purist.

===============
i agree 100% with all you said.  your dual email client usage is pretty interesting.  The editor in the Bat really is quite weird given that were in 2019.  I thought it was weird in 2009!  And guess what....NOTHING has changed lol.  10 years of updates and no changes to the editor, the primary place you spend most of your time.  But the program is solid and there really are no good alternatives.

I'll start poking around eudora.  I used it pretty heavily back in the 90s.  It was a great program.

Steven Avery

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Virtual Mailboxes in Thunderbird, Postbox

===========================================

In the discussions at TheBat! forum, where one gentleman has some real frustrations, they discuss desktop email client alternatives.

Thunderbird and Postbox (essentially a Thunderbird fork) are the main alternative offered.
And I tend to discuss Eudora-Hermes and Pandora.

===========================================

Thunderbird
"Even better, using ​Saved Search folders you can create "virtual" mailboxes that automatically search for messages matching their criteria in all your Mozilla Thunderbird folders. While the messages remain in the folders they have been filed to, they also show up in all Saved Search folders that find them."

Organization by Folders in Mozilla Thunderbird
https://www.lifewire...-thunderbird-1173118

===========================================

Are those updated with new mail downloads?
Are those updated when you move mail around?
... Are they truly equivalent to TheBat! virtual folders?

Thanks!

« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 06:01 AM by Steven Avery »

Steven Avery

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Wikipedia has a checkmark for "Virtual Folders".
I put some comments on the bottom of the "Talk" page
https://en.wikipedia...son_of_email_clients

Virtual Folders Ritlabs- TheBat! is very strong. (I have dozens in my Bat.)

Thunderbird-Postbox (not on list) definitely, by saved search. Seamonkey probably, since, like Postbox, afaik it is a fork on a Thunderbird code base. See - https://www.lifewire...-thunderbird-1173118

Afaik, Eudora does not have virtual folders in any way, yet it is marked yes. I am a long-term Eudora user.

And I am a little skeptical about Mailbird, Em Client, and the Opera ("all folders are virtual") entries. Also Pegasus, Poco and Zimbra. Maybe so, but since Eudora was called yes, all should be checked. I will do what I can, only working with Windows clients.
======

And I recommend adding Pandora and Postbox to the list.

Wikipedia
"Opera Mail is at the end-of-life stage of its product lifecycle; this means neither technical support nor product and security updates will be provided. The product is no longer available for download."
It actually does seem to have an interesting architecture.

Lifewire - 2019
https://www.lifewire...7-free-email-1166878
Pegasus
"Pegasus Mail does not include virtual folders or labels that would learn by example. If you're accustomed to your email program realizing that you put all your emails from your spouse into a "family" folder, for example, and then shortcutting that move, you'll be disappointed in the inflexibility of Pegasus Mail to automate these tasks for you."

Poco (or its sucessor) seems unlikely.
"PocoMail for Windows is no longer available for sale."
Maybe Barca, but I have not seen the feature.

"The Zimbra Desktop is no longer supported. It will reach the end of Technical Guidance October 1, 2019."
https://forums.zimbr...php?f=23&t=66134

======================

Em Client
WHAT ARE "SMART FOLDERS"?
Smart Folders are virtual folders that display all messages from a certain folder type (such as Inbox, Outbox, Sent, Unread, Flagged messages, Search Folders or Category folders) from all of your email accounts at once. They can be found in the left pane in the Mail tab, above the folders for your individual accounts. This feature allows you to check all emails without having to go through each separate account individually.
These folders can be enabled/disabled in Menu > Tools > Settings > General > General.

This does seem to be a virtual merged folder, a flat view, but not virtual folders in the sense of
"all emails in any box involving 'Johannine Comma' "

======================

Mailbird has "Unified Inbox Plus" - doubt that they have any real virtual folders, by my understanding
Interesting article and discussion
https://www.getmailb...ail-app-for-windows/

======================

Bottom line so far -- just TheBat! for real, true, workable virtual folders in an active product.

======================

A bit more.

Should check ChaosSoftware - Chaos Intellect
https://www.chaossof...re.com/products.aspx
Compare to Essential PIM if use full Chaos stuff.

EasyMail for GMail - Gmail on your Desktop (Some Notifiers do this too.)
https://easymailforgmail.com/
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 07:22 AM by Steven Avery »

Tuxman

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GnuPG is nowhere to be seen except The Bat.  :Thmbsup:

Tuxman

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I'd like to submit a feature request for GnuPG support to Pandora's author but the forum refuses to send me an activation e-mail.

 :-\

Tuxman

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I messaged Pandora's author now, he said GnuPG will come in "late fall maybe".
Waiting ...

I admit that it is rather usable.  :-[

edit:

The editor in the Bat really is quite weird given that were in 2019.  I thought it was weird in 2009!  And guess what....NOTHING has changed lol. 

They changed quite a few aspects of it - not visually though.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 07:42 AM by Tuxman »

Steven Avery

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I usually use their editor for composing, since TheBat! is my master program, even though I have the Eudora editor activated on an email account as well, and it is a more comfortable experience.

And I think my biggest concern is the lack of boxes or quote-boxes. That seems rather primitive for today.  You might mention some other elements?

Tuxman

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I have Ctrl+F'ed through the revision histories and "editor" is mentioned rather often - usually the HTML editor though. I'm not on my The Bat! computer here, so I could evaluate it later. Never searched for boxes, honestly.

Soon, they'll want more money from me. The Bat! 9 is around the corner. Sigh!

superboyac

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I have Ctrl+F'ed through the revision histories and "editor" is mentioned rather often - usually the HTML editor though. I'm not on my The Bat! computer here, so I could evaluate it later. Never searched for boxes, honestly.

Soon, they'll want more money from me. The Bat! 9 is around the corner. Sigh!
I *may* have gotten banned from the ritlabs forums permanently for complaining about the editor like 10 years ago!  lol
And guess what...10 years later, STILL THE SAME.  LOLOLOL

honestly, most of the issues comes down to one thing....wrapping.  like, can you just make the editor wrap like a normal window?  maybe a little checkbox to enable/disable?  nope maybe in 20 years.

superboyac

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lol Steven, just noticed your thread on the Bat forum.  nice.

Yea, i wish they would do legit, noticeable improvements.
Fix the editor, get it modern.
Fix the contact syncing.  It does not work.  It's also very weird in general.
so many others.
how about autofilling addresses?  can we get that to make some sort of sense.?  i feel like, as with most autofill technologies, they always want to choose the worst possible choice.  somehow, every single time, the AI knows exactly which choice i DONT want and thats the one it chooses.  quite brilliant, actually.

(still great program)

Tuxman

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like, can you just make the editor wrap like a normal window?

It automatically wraps - or rewraps - long lines when you press Alt+L, I find that handy, actually.  :huh:


Tuxman

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FWIW:
The next The Bat! (version 9) will have a ribbon layout. Ribbons!  >:( Blergh.

rjbull

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The next The Bat! (version 9) will have a ribbon layout. Ribbons!  >:( Blergh.
If that's compulsory, I doubt I'll "upgrade."

Tuxman

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Maxim said they'd replace the existing toolbars by a new toolkit.

I wonder how many people will stand up against that.

Tuxman

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After considering my options for what comes after The Bat! 8.8.9, I bought Pandora and uninstalled The Bat! today, keeping Thunderbird with Enigmail as my GnuPG fallback until Pandora (or Pegasus Mail? ;)) gets GnuPG support as well. Ribbons. Ugh! Thank you, Steven, for this opportunity. (Are you aware that Pandora does have virtual mailboxes?)

The one thing that lets Pandora struggle is an old(ish) mailing list which has almost 60,000 messages in it. It takes ages to change anything in that folder.
I took the time to empty it now ...  ;D

I have quite a few improvement suggestions and I found a few bugs. I reported all of them.
Let's see how this will end.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 05:44 PM by Tuxman »

Steven Avery

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Good info.

I’ll have took for the virtual folders.  What are they called in Pandora?

Mailing list or box? 
In Eudora I always broke them out when much over 30K to an archive, I think to avoid memory issues.

Pandora has real potential.

Tuxman

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Good start: I accidentally deleted all of my e-mails yesterday because I thought that "In" was only a mirror of my actual INBOX folders.
There is that "Leave Mail on Server" checkbox... which is easy to miss.

 :-\

Pandora should probably not use that for IMAP.
Well, at least now I know that my provider's backup system works.

I’ll have took for the virtual folders.  What are they called in Pandora?

Mailing list or box? 

Those are called a "Mailbox" afaics. Just like "In" and "Out" are nothing but "Mailboxes". Which I know now.  ;D

edit: The HERMES people also plan to add new features:
https://sourceforge....olutionary-features/

I guess they're just slow. ;)
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 09:31 AM by Tuxman »