Author Topic: Windows 10 as an Internet service? (Read 25110 times)

dr_andus · « **Reply #25 on:** January 26, 2015, 04:00 PM »

I wouldn't think you'd have to install it to get the upgrade, nor have zero media. Why not get the upgrade, and just not install it?
-wraith808 (January 26, 2015, 03:15 PM)

Oh, can that be done? I thought there would be some activation code or licence that expires?

wraith808 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 26, 2015, 06:12 PM »

I wouldn't think you'd have to install it to get the upgrade, nor have zero media. Why not get the upgrade, and just not install it?
-wraith808 (January 26, 2015, 03:15 PM)

Oh, can that be done? I thought there would be some activation code or licence that expires?
-dr_andus (January 26, 2015, 04:00 PM)

If they do it the same as the Windows 8 upgrade? No... not really.

40hz · « **Reply #27 on:** January 26, 2015, 06:43 PM »

Gavin Clarke over at The register puts his two cents in. Read it
-40hz (January 26, 2015, 11:57 AM)

Interesting article, thanks for this. One thing I don't get it why MS thinks being so cryptic about their plan is a good thing. Their event raised more questions than answers, and now everyone out there is reading the tea leaves and trying to make sense of stupid things like what did MS mean by a "device". They could have just spelled out the plan, rather than allow for all these speculations to proliferate (and most of them seem to draw negative conclusions).

Could they be really so bad at marketing? What is that about? Or maybe they haven't actually agreed on a plan yet (which is not a good sign either)? Or maybe the plan (the truth) is even more negative than the speculations? I just can't see how it could be a good thing to leave millions of customers out there scratching their heads.
-dr_andus (January 26, 2015, 03:11 PM)

I think the short answer is:

Yes. They actually are that bad at marketing.

...and

Yes. They are not exactly sure how they want to play it just yet.

Some people might say (but you know the sort of things they say....) that this is more a bellwether to gauge audience reactions and objections before finalizing the details of their offer.

As far as causing uncertainty, Microsoft has made an art of that. Keeping everybody guessing - even after the fact - is not something Microsoft has a philosophical or moral issue with. If you don't believe it, try asking them a direct question about their licensing. You'll get some of the fanciest tap dancing all around the room since Mr. Bo-Jangles died.

As for the free upgrade, I will probably wait until the last week of the 11th month to see all the feedback on the bugs and issues etc., whether it's really worth it or better to stick with Win7 (unless the early feedback will be really amazing). But to be honest, all I heard so far is that they bring back features for which there are already better 3rd party tools anyway (like the Start menu), so I'm not seeing yet the fabulous benefits of upgrading.

Yep. It's mostly how to fix what's wrong without admitting it was your 'bad' that caused it.

However, Windows 8, once stripped of all the Sinofsky gingerbread & garland, is a really good OS. The underpinning system is easily the best and most secure (which isn't saying much for that part) Microsoft ever came up with. It's solid and smooth. But like a puma in a pinafore, it's not the cat - it's that stupid dress they wrapped it in that screwed everything.

They intend to tombstone Windows 7. So as long as Windows 10 does as it claims on the tin, and doesn't try to fence you in too much without a viable escape hatch (which is probably too much to hope for), it's probably silly not to upgrade. Or at least no sillier than sticking with Windows to begin with.

40hz · « **Reply #28 on:** January 26, 2015, 06:55 PM »

I wouldn't think you'd have to install it to get the upgrade, nor have zero media. Why not get the upgrade, and just not install it?
-wraith808 (January 26, 2015, 03:15 PM)

Oh, can that be done? I thought there would be some activation code or licence that expires?
-dr_andus (January 26, 2015, 04:00 PM)

I'm guessing they'll handle it through the same mechanism they use for their Anytime Upgrade. It'll probably read your ID and activation info, and update their customer database so they know you requested the upgrade - and then irrevocably move you up to 10 - after which you likely won't ever be able to downgrade to (or reactivate) Windows 7. Even if you have disks. If you need system backups or want machine specific restoration disks, you'll have to make them using the recovery tools already built into Windows. Just like you can now.

Seriously. This will be a one-way corridor you'll have to contractually agree (via the EULA) to walk down. The primary reason they're doing this "for free" is to get you off Windows 7, regardless of whatever other reasons they may also have. And they intend to do it once and for all when they do. No repeating that XP holdout debacle.

Microsoft may be clueless at times. But they're not stupid.

wraith808 · « **Reply #29 on:** January 26, 2015, 08:13 PM »

I wouldn't think you'd have to install it to get the upgrade, nor have zero media. Why not get the upgrade, and just not install it?
-wraith808 (January 26, 2015, 03:15 PM)

Oh, can that be done? I thought there would be some activation code or licence that expires?
-dr_andus (January 26, 2015, 04:00 PM)

I'm guessing they'll handle it through the same mechanism they use for their Anytime Upgrade. It'll probably read your ID and activation info, and update their customer database so they know you requested the upgrade - and then irrevocably move you up to 10 - after which you likely won't ever be able to downgrade to (or reactivate) Windows 7. Even if you have disks. If you need system backups or want machine specific restoration disks, you'll have to make them using the recovery tools already built into Windows. Just like you can now.

Seriously. This will be a one-way corridor you'll have to contractually agree (via the EULA) to walk down. The primary reason they're doing this "for free" is to get you off Windows 7, regardless of whatever other reasons they may also have. And they intend to do it once and for all when they do. No repeating that XP holdout debacle.

Microsoft may be clueless at times. But they're not stupid.

-40hz (January 26, 2015, 06:55 PM)

But that wasn't the way that the Windows 8 upgrade was handled for the same purpose. I received media to install. If there's no media and such, there's no way in HELL I'm taking them up on that offer. And I think that anyone that has any modicum of sense would do the same. There's too many reasons to need media to fall for that.

40hz · « **Reply #30 on:** January 26, 2015, 08:48 PM »

But that wasn't the way that the Windows 8 upgrade was handled for the same purpose. I received media to install.
-wraith808 (January 26, 2015, 08:13 PM)

Yes. But you either bought a new PC within the "qualifies for free upgrade to Windows 8" timeframe - or you paid money to get it.

This time it's is supposedly going to be absolutely free. But who knows? Maybe they'll give people the opportunity to purchase an optional media kit with disk(s)?

If there's no media and such, there's no way in HELL I'm taking them up on that offer. And I think that anyone that has any modicum of sense would do the same. There's too many reasons to need media to fall for that.
-wraith808 (January 26, 2015, 08:13 PM)

Agree 100%. I think hard media is essential for any purchased product - and very desirable even if it's not. But manufacturer supplied disks aren't necessary to recover your machine after the upgrade is completed. You can make a full set of recovery media from within Windows once it's installed. So the old "absolutely needed for disaster recovery" argument no longer applies.

Really blows...I know. But there you are.

wraith808 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 26, 2015, 09:52 PM »

But that wasn't the way that the Windows 8 upgrade was handled for the same purpose. I received media to install.
-wraith808 (January 26, 2015, 08:13 PM)

Yes. But you either bought a new PC within the "qualifies for free upgrade to Windows 8" timeframe - or you paid money to get it.
-40hz (January 26, 2015, 08:48 PM)

Actually... neither. I purchased Windows 7 to install on my Macbook... and it came with a free upgrade to windows 8. Seems like the same scenario. I only paid for the media. I could have gotten it as an anytime upgrade.... but... yeah.

dr_andus · « **Reply #32 on:** January 28, 2015, 04:16 PM »

They intend to tombstone Windows 7. So as long as Windows 10 does as it claims on the tin, and doesn't try to fence you in too much without a viable escape hatch (which is probably too much to hope for), it's probably silly not to upgrade. Or at least no sillier than sticking with Windows to begin with.
-40hz (January 26, 2015, 06:43 PM)

Well, or maybe not so silly if I don't want to pay the annual subscription fee when I move onto a newer "device" (considering that we don't even know how much that is going to be). I have invested a bit of money into my Win7 retail box, so it might be financially better to make the most of that investment, rather than starting to pay X no. of $$ annually....

I'm guessing they'll handle it through the same mechanism they use for their Anytime Upgrade. It'll probably read your ID and activation info, and update their customer database so they know you requested the upgrade - and then irrevocably move you up to 10 - after which you likely won't ever be able to downgrade to (or reactivate) Windows 7. Even if you have disks.
-40hz (January 26, 2015, 06:55 PM)

Again, in that case I might just want to stick with my Win7 disk for a while, in the face of all this uncertainty about the details (which even businesses do not tend to like). Wouldn't it just have been easier if they'd revealed a bit more detail and put our minds at ease??

wraith808 · « **Reply #33 on:** January 28, 2015, 04:47 PM »

Again, in that case I might just want to stick with my Win7 disk for a while, in the face of all this uncertainty about the details (which even businesses do not tend to like). Wouldn't it just have been easier if they'd revealed a bit more detail and put our minds at ease??
-dr_andus (January 28, 2015, 04:16 PM)

As with a lot of things... there's FUD clouding the issue. Everything people have said about subscriptions is based upon zero information and much speculation. Perhaps, since they have already done the same sort of thing, and this is just an expansion of the same programs, they might assume that people would take it at the value of them going forth with the same policies?

dr_andus · « **Reply #34 on:** January 28, 2015, 05:37 PM »

As with a lot of things... there's FUD clouding the issue.
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 04:47 PM)

Yes, except this time they are doing it to themselves...

My point is that MS introducing so much uncertainty may have created the opposite effect they wanted to achieve, i.e. people may be more inclined to stick with their Win7 instead (or even go out and buy a retail pack - at least looking at Amazon UK, people still seem to be buying them, even though it's 60 pounds (!) more expensive now than what I paid for it exactly 2 yrs ago).

40hz · « **Reply #35 on:** January 28, 2015, 08:06 PM »

Yes, except this time they are doing it to themselves...
-dr_andus (January 28, 2015, 05:37 PM)

Mainly because I strongly suspect they don't know exactly how they want to play this yet. Or how heavy-handed they think they can get away with being about it. They tried some "tough love" with IT departments when they were releasing Windows 8. And that backfired on them rather spectacularly.

Their cleverly offering a no-charge upgrade (IMO it's not entirely accurate to call it 'free' since it comes with some caveats and conditions) neatly blocks any justification for government intervention however.

This will be interesting. And once again, I hope my deep distrust of Microsoft (the company) will prove to be completely unfounded.

wraith808 · « **Reply #36 on:** January 28, 2015, 08:16 PM »

As with a lot of things... there's FUD clouding the issue.
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 04:47 PM)

Yes, except this time they are doing it to themselves... My point is that MS introducing so much uncertainty may have created the opposite effect they wanted to achieve, i.e. people may be more inclined to stick with their Win7 instead (or even go out and buy a retail pack - at least looking at Amazon UK, people still seem to be buying them, even though it's 60 pounds (!) more expensive now than what I paid for it exactly 2 yrs ago).
-dr_andus (January 28, 2015, 05:37 PM)

How are they doing it to themselves? They've had free upgrades before... why assume that it's anything different than what the policy has always been?

40hz · « **Reply #37 on:** January 28, 2015, 08:37 PM »

They've had free upgrades before...
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 08:16 PM)

I don't seem to recall any 'free' full version upgrades that weren't purchased as part of a "free upgrade" guarantee offer. (i.e. "Shop with confidence! Buy now - and get a 'free' upgrade to Windows XX when it's released later this year...") What did I miss?

why assume that it's anything different than what the policy has always been?
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 08:16 PM)

AFAIK, Microsoft's policy has always been: copies of Windows are never ever to be given away for free. Period. Everyone must pay something to get one. So in this instance, I think this marks a truly major departure from Microsoft's long standing "NO FREEBIES!" rule.

Did you see something that says otherwise?

wraith808 · « **Reply #38 on:** January 28, 2015, 10:32 PM »

They've had free upgrades before...
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 08:16 PM)

I don't seem to recall any 'free' full version upgrades that weren't purchased as part of a "free upgrade" guarantee offer. (i.e. "Shop with confidence! Buy now - and get a 'free' upgrade to Windows XX when it's released later this year...") What did I miss?

why assume that it's anything different than what the policy has always been?
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 08:16 PM)

AFAIK, Microsoft's policy has always been: copies of Windows are never ever to be given away for free. Period. Everyone must pay something to get one. So in this instance, I think this marks a truly major departure from Microsoft's long standing "NO FREEBIES!" rule.

Did you see something that says otherwise?
-40hz (January 28, 2015, 08:37 PM)

As I said above, I received a free windows 8 upgrade, and a free windows 7 upgrade. And the windows 7 upgrade was over a year after I purchased my Vista laptop. The windows 8 was closer... but only by about 6 months.

wraith808 · « **Reply #39 on:** January 28, 2015, 10:48 PM »

Ah... I get the disconnect.

You're saying that b/c it's totally free, there has to be a catch. I guess I don't see that. I'm assuming it's the same way as any other upgrade. And has the same sort of terms. I just don't see where it's anything but an adoption and standardization tactic- and don't get where the talks of a subscription are.

dr_andus · « **Reply #40 on:** January 29, 2015, 05:30 AM »

and don't get where the talks of a subscription are.
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 10:48 PM)

As far as I understand it, the free upgrade is only valid for the lifetime of the "device" (whatever that means). So if my Win7 device is pretty old (which it is), then if I upgrade now (and if it works like 40hz suggested, i.e. that it invalidates my Win7 licence), then I would have to start paying for a Win10 license (possibly an annual subscription fee, by the sound of it) on whatever new machine I will get. And as yet, we don't know how much that would be. So sticking with my Win7 license seems like a safer option (less uncertainty in the face of MS not revealing their cards about how exactly they are going to make money out of Win10).

40hz · « **Reply #41 on:** January 29, 2015, 07:36 AM »

You're saying that b/c it's totally free, there has to be a catch.
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 10:48 PM)

On no, not at all.

I was saying that Microsoft doesn't give copies of Windows away. And that when they do no-charge upgrades, (a) it's only been for the version immediately preceding the new one; and (b) you know you qualify for it going in. Announcing after that fact that all licensees of the two previous versions of Windows qualify is (AFAIK) unprecedented.

I'm also glad to see you got two no-charge upgrades. I don't know why they did that for you...but who cares!

We don't look gift horses in the mouth, right?

40hz · « **Reply #42 on:** January 29, 2015, 08:21 AM »

Everything people have said about subscriptions is based upon zero information and much speculation.
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 04:47 PM)

Not quite true, although it is entirely speculation (and highly unlikely) at this point.

Steve Ballmer repeatedly said he felt non-security related updates to Windows should not remain free indefinitely.

And at one time (at least) in the past, he openly opined that any software that ran on Windows should be paying Microsoft a licensing fee - because Windows was what made it possible for such software to exist in the first place. He said something to the extent that developers were getting a free ride off Microsoft's intellectual property. And he didn't think that was right. (He also called Linux "a cancer.")

Fortunately, Microsoft didn't do anything with any of Steve's musings. But there's nothing to say they couldn't. Some development tools and frameworks already do just that. You license X number of runtimes or libraries or whatever for distribution when you buy the tool. Want to sell more copies of your software? Buy more licenses to distribute what you developed. It's nothing new. Back in the days of mainframes, compilers were for the licensee's exclusive in-house use. And these were usually licensed on an annual basis. You had to pay a fee each year for support & maintenance if you wanted to continue using them. And if you wrote a program using one - and wanted to sell it commercially - you owed whoever wrote the compiler a fee, which usually had to be negotiated on a case by case basis.

PCs changed all that. Software started to be thought of as sold once the old dinosaur code devs reluctantly realized private individuals didn't have the money or patience to put up with arcane software licensing rules and restrictions. Then along came Borland to kick the bottom out from under the pricing conventions...

Now it looks like we're getting back to the bad old days. Today, people and businesses want to create just one thing, hang a taxi meter on it, and retire off a lifetime of royalties. It's already happening in the media world where the current industry position is that all IP must be owned by someone. No such thing as "fair use" or "public domain" as far as they're concerned.

So why should software and operating systems be treated any differently? Because they didn't used to be.

dr_andus · « **Reply #43 on:** January 29, 2015, 10:38 AM »

Everything people have said about subscriptions is based upon zero information and much speculation.
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 04:47 PM)

Not quite true, although it is entirely speculation (and highly unlikely) at this point.
-40hz (January 29, 2015, 08:21 AM)

It does raise the question though of how they're going to make money off of consumers and small businesses if there would be no subscription. If it's not the OS that has the subscription, then the software it runs does (MS Office etc.), or it's a walled garden to which developers have to pay through the teeth to access it. Or they would need to make their money on the hardware (equivalent of Apple's various devices, especially phones and tablets), and then periodically make the hardware obsolete by new OS upgrades. But this last one somehow failed to take off for MS...

wraith808 · « **Reply #44 on:** January 29, 2015, 11:24 AM »

Everything people have said about subscriptions is based upon zero information and much speculation.
-wraith808 (January 28, 2015, 04:47 PM)

Not quite true, although it is entirely speculation (and highly unlikely) at this point.
-40hz (January 29, 2015, 08:21 AM)

It does raise the question though of how they're going to make money off of consumers and small businesses if there would be no subscription. If it's not the OS that has the subscription, then the software it runs does (MS Office etc.), or it's a walled garden to which developers have to pay through the teeth to access it. Or they would need to make their money on the hardware (equivalent of Apple's various devices, especially phones and tablets), and then periodically make the hardware obsolete by new OS upgrades. But this last one somehow failed to take off for MS...
-dr_andus (January 29, 2015, 10:38 AM)

They didn't say it will always be free. They just want to up adoption rates. Which was probably the same reason that I got windows 7 and Windows 8 for free.

I think also that the wording on the device bit was based upon the fact of MS's historical fights with the OEM versions of the software, i.e. people buying them at OEM rates for builds and such for others. It might have been more clearly stated, but as it stands right now, I'm not crying foul, though that's just my take. If they didn't give you the media... that's a different story. But if I have the media for 7, 8, and 10... I'll try it and back out if its not what I wanted. Or, more likely, wait for SP1 as usual, then do it.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #45 on:** January 29, 2015, 11:39 AM »

PCs changed all that. Software started to be thought of as sold once the old dinosaur code devs reluctantly realized private individuals didn't have the money or patience to put up with arcane software licensing rules and restrictions.
-40hz (January 29, 2015, 08:21 AM)

Then we need to hire William Wallace to spearhead rioting in streets that run red with rivers of corporate blood to ensure that freedom from that level of draconian blood sucking is not and will not be tolerated.

^If only life was fair^ ... But seriously.

Ultimately I suspect that the whole PC/Internet wild west show is going to get turned just another corporate sucking noise just like every other technological advance -(television/telephone/the automobile/etc.)- that was really fun until some idiot insisted on making it safe and profitable.

40hz · « **Reply #46 on:** January 29, 2015, 12:51 PM »

Ultimately I suspect that the whole PC/Internet wild west show is going to get turned just another corporate sucking noise just like every other technological advance -(television/telephone/the automobile/etc.)- that was really fun until some idiot insisted on making it safe and profitable.
-Stoic Joker (January 29, 2015, 11:39 AM)

Agree 100% except for the safe part. They're (but you know the sort of things THEY do!) actively crippling it so that it will never truly be safe. And purely for the convenience of those who want to protect us from what they feel we need to be protected from - whether we want it or not.

I'm just happy we've (still) got NIX and BSD. If it weren't for those, I'd have scrapped all my net-linked tech ages ago.

I will be sooooo happy once I get completely out from under the Windows/Mac/iOS/Droid virtual reality containment dome.

Soon. Very soon now.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #47 on:** January 29, 2015, 02:21 PM »

And purely for the convenience of those who want to protect us from what they feel we need to be protected from - whether we want it or not.
-40hz (January 29, 2015, 12:51 PM)

Precisely where I was going, I just forgot to put the word safe in quotes to assist in imply that.

superboyac · « **Reply #48 on:** January 29, 2015, 04:16 PM »

I will be sooooo happy once I get completely out from under the Windows/Mac/iOS/Droid virtual reality containment dome.
-40hz (January 29, 2015, 12:51 PM)

Me too. Although there would be some windows withdrawal symptoms I'd have to be prepared for.