Author Topic: driveless cars (Read 30519 times)

kalos · « **Reply #25 on:** October 16, 2014, 04:03 AM »

Oh thank God, this is so great news! Can't wait to have them!

MilesAhead · « **Reply #26 on:** October 16, 2014, 05:40 AM »

Of course when it's commonplace most everyone will lose the skill of driving or never learn it. There will be families named Pilot or something similar where skills are passed down. When a human pilot is needed for a car,boat,aircraft or extra orbital vehicle, one of these people will get contacted via the cranial implant etc..

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #27 on:** October 16, 2014, 06:44 AM »

Of course when it's commonplace most everyone will lose the skill of driving or never learn it.
-MilesAhead (October 16, 2014, 05:40 AM)

Quite true, much liker coopers and candlestick makers. It's funny really that the smarter we get the stupider we become. I'm not so sure that is really forward movement. It's more like progress is just a rolling average paradigm shift in what is perceived as common knowledge.

Renegade · « **Reply #28 on:** October 16, 2014, 07:27 AM »

Oh thank God, this is so great news! Can't wait to have them!
-kalos (October 16, 2014, 04:03 AM)

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not...

kalos · « **Reply #29 on:** October 16, 2014, 08:45 AM »

why would you need to have the skill to drive?
I am not opposite to it, but it would be an obsolete skill
and to be honest, driving will be so much automated, that you can learn driving within seconds

kalos · « **Reply #30 on:** October 16, 2014, 08:46 AM »

Oh thank God, this is so great news! Can't wait to have them!
-kalos (October 16, 2014, 04:03 AM)

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not...
-Renegade (October 16, 2014, 07:27 AM)

ofcourse not! we are in a technology forum and I can't believe people are so much afraid of technological advancements!

wraith808 · « **Reply #31 on:** October 16, 2014, 10:14 AM »

I'm not ready to put my life in their hands. Either as the passenger, or another driver on the streets.
-wraith808 (October 14, 2014, 02:14 PM)

But you're already doing that as another driver on the streets, since these vehicles are out there, and have been for years.
-Deozaan (October 16, 2014, 01:46 AM)

I answered that above. And besides that, a controlled set is different from every driver.

wraith808 · « **Reply #32 on:** October 16, 2014, 10:20 AM »

Oh thank God, this is so great news! Can't wait to have them!
-kalos (October 16, 2014, 04:03 AM)

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not...
-Renegade (October 16, 2014, 07:27 AM)

ofcourse not! we are in a technology forum and I can't believe people are so much afraid of technological advancements!
-kalos (October 16, 2014, 08:46 AM)

Technology is never the answer. It's a tool, like any other, and we as people that are on a technology forum must have a much greater scrutiny of the uses and abuses of such things, IMO. That old chestnut about when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail? That applies to technology, also.

It's very easy to fall into as a developer- using the latest features of development platforms just because it's cool. But that makes a bad developer, and a client that's not well served.

This technology is not ready for prime-time. That's the only thing we're saying. Not that it will never be. But that it's not currently. And Google agrees. And Elon Musk seems to agree. So what's so wrong with us applying our scrutiny and agreeing? Because it seems pretty obvious to me that it has a long way to go before its ready- and that it shouldn't be the default state until it is ready, and that the standards should be a lot higher than for a human driver.

Renegade · « **Reply #33 on:** October 16, 2014, 11:48 AM »

Oh thank God, this is so great news! Can't wait to have them!
-kalos (October 16, 2014, 04:03 AM)

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not...
-Renegade (October 16, 2014, 07:27 AM)

ofcourse not! we are in a technology forum and I can't believe people are so much afraid of technological advancements!
-kalos (October 16, 2014, 08:46 AM)

Technology is never the answer. It's a tool, like any other, and we as people that are on a technology forum must have a much greater scrutiny of the uses and abuses of such things, IMO. That old chestnut about when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail? That applies to technology, also.

It's very easy to fall into as a developer- using the latest features of development platforms just because it's cool. But that makes a bad developer, and a client that's not well served.

This technology is not ready for prime-time. That's the only thing we're saying. Not that it will never be. But that it's not currently. And Google agrees. And Elon Musk seems to agree. So what's so wrong with us applying our scrutiny and agreeing? Because it seems pretty obvious to me that it has a long way to go before its ready- and that it shouldn't be the default state until it is ready, and that the standards should be a lot higher than for a human driver.
-wraith808 (October 16, 2014, 10:20 AM)

+1,000

ofcourse not! we are in a technology forum and I can't believe people are so much afraid of technological advancements!
-kalos (October 16, 2014, 08:46 AM)

I'm F**KING TERRIFIED!!!

I get a lot of confidential documents across my desk from industry players and government think tanks.

The technology is advancing too fast. There is no common understanding for what it can do. It is being marketed as convenience, but that's not what's actually happening. Behind the scenes, it's not "convenience".

It's a tool, but... it's not going to be used well...

Again, privacy pops its head up.

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #34 on:** October 16, 2014, 12:00 PM »

@Wraith - That was beautiful man!

we are in a technology forum and I can't believe people are so much afraid of technological advancements!
-kalos (October 16, 2014, 08:46 AM)

I believe the part you are missing, is that Automotive Technology, is technology too. And that there are many more aspects to it than just ease of navigation. I get the impression that you've never actually been behind the wheel of a real car...otherwise you'd readily understand the shear joy of putting one through its paces on an open road the way it was designed to be driven. But this is the problem with some of the current generations who have only been exposed to the bubble wrapped, mother approved, child proof, gutlessly sterile econo-class conveyances of today. Like the Toyota Prius, or that god awful MP3 player on wheels contraption from Kia they are trying to pretend is fun to drive...Ha! With a 0-to-60 time north of 18 seconds and a top speed of not really calling it a soul is just a bad joke...'cause it ain't got one - or any heart either.

Try sliding behind the wheel of one of the old muscle cars from their (late 60's early 70's) heyday. When you put one of them two the floor, the back two barrels open, and the beast comes alive ... Then you'll understand what it means to have a pulse.

SeraphimLabs · « **Reply #35 on:** October 16, 2014, 12:48 PM »

ofcourse not! we are in a technology forum and I can't believe people are so much afraid of technological advancements!
-kalos (October 16, 2014, 08:46 AM)

Because we're rapidly approaching an extremely dangerous state where nobody knows how this stuff actually works or what to do in an emergency if it is malfunctioning.

Take Apollo 13 for example. Cutting edge technology- the very limit of what the 1970s could deliver in order to put man and machine on the moon and return them to earth safely.

Their survival and recovery was only possible because back then engineers made a point of providing manual overrides for every little feature, and designing a system to be as flexible as it was powerful while at the same time keeping complexity to the minimum needed to do the job.

In the end it was still the sheer luck that an identical craft was attached to a ground simulator that a solution to the power supply problems was found, and a carefully metered quantity of ducttape holding their air filter together so they could breathe.

Working in manufacturing like I do, there is a very highly alarming trend in engineering where you see engineers that have little to no hands-on experience with building and using the systems they design. These engineers will make an amazing design in 3D model on their computer, that when it reaches fabrication is quickly determined to be almost impossible to make and even more difficult to repair if anything goes wrong.

Plus modern people seem to have a phobia of instruments and manual override control panels, resulting in a lot of designs simply eliminating these required features in the interest of making it look appealing and cutting costs. Designs reach production all too frequently now that have no room for error at all, if anything goes wrong it instantly goes horribly wrong and ruins everything.

That's my problem with a lot of new technology. I've worked with technology long enough to automatically not trust any piece of equipment that has not proven itself through regular usage and been inspected as far as practical on the maintenance bench to make sure it is defect-free.

MilesAhead · « **Reply #36 on:** October 16, 2014, 04:26 PM »

why would you need to have the skill to drive?
I am not opposite to it, but it would be an obsolete skill
and to be honest, driving will be so much automated, that you can learn driving within seconds
-kalos (October 16, 2014, 08:45 AM)

Ever see the whole system lock up due to a hardware fault? Now imagine you are traveling in your hovercraft 6 inches above the roadway at just below the sound barrier in heavy traffic. You might want to be able to take over when the computer says "Not my job man!" When all those systems that keep things in trim are out of service it helps to have someone in control who has some touch. It can't be developed instantly. Muscle memory takes time to nurture.

Also the pilots would be hired for special circumstances such as piloting craft in areas where the computer is not reliable. I'm not enough of a hardware geek to name a bunch of examples.. maybe background radiation as some spacecraft explores an asteroid with interesting attributes or whatnot.

It might be analogous to anarchists having a small cadre of lawyers just in case.

MilesAhead · « **Reply #37 on:** October 16, 2014, 05:35 PM »

I just thought I'd mention I ride on driverless cars every day. The MetroMover system in Miami is driven by computer. It's a bit simpler since it doesn't have to react with steering changes. There's a guide hooked to the hydraulic steering control.

A ride on this thing might quell some of the enthusiasm for the concept. It works, but it's not what I'd call a smooth ride. Every now and then it doesn't want to pull out of the station and a tech has to pop the cover to reboot it. It's kind of a novelty for the tourists.

wraith808 · « **Reply #38 on:** October 16, 2014, 05:48 PM »

You might want to be able to take over when the computer says "Not my job man!"
-MilesAhead (October 16, 2014, 04:26 PM)

Is it OK if I image "The Dude" saying that?

TaoPhoenix · « **Reply #39 on:** October 16, 2014, 10:13 PM »

That might be an important post Seraphim.

Skipping the word "phobia", maybe subconsciously in shows like Star Trek we told ourselves that when the "Big Tech" fails, (transporter, main computer, etc), we have to hope we have at least one lateral outside-the-box thinker around to desperately rig something together so we don't die in 28 minutes.

Not counting actual budget and era issues, their tech was supposed to be a bunch of times better than ours. But are we getting seduced by how clean computer-generated-everything is becoming? Trek TOS is def becoming dated to my cynical eyes, but some of the newer episodes are still watchable. But are we losing a deep message about technology?

MilesAhead · « **Reply #40 on:** October 17, 2014, 05:45 AM »

You might want to be able to take over when the computer says "Not my job man!"
-MilesAhead (October 16, 2014, 04:26 PM)

Is it OK if I image "The Dude" saying that?
(see attachment in previous post)

-wraith808 (October 16, 2014, 05:48 PM)

Heh heh. Freddie Prinze had the copyright. But he's no longer with us. So I guess The Dude can cop it.

kalos · « **Reply #41 on:** October 17, 2014, 05:59 AM »

you who moan about driveless technology, you have already used it, if you have flied with an aeroplane
what is the possibility for aeroplane automatic pilot systems to fail?
and how high would be the percentages of aircraft accidents if there weren't automatic pilot systems?

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #42 on:** October 17, 2014, 06:59 AM »

you who moan about driveless technology, you have already used it, if you have flied with an aeroplane
-kalos (October 17, 2014, 05:59 AM)

There's not a lot of cross traffic at 30,000 feet.

what is the possibility for aeroplane automatic pilot systems to fail?
-kalos (October 17, 2014, 05:59 AM)

Well... they do seem to make a point of having a someone sit there ready to take over in case an alarm goes off...and there a second someone there to back the first someone up if they're in the bathroom when the alarm goes off. So I'm guessing that somebody - who's willing to waste the money on paying all these people - thinks it is a possibility.

and how high would be the percentages of aircraft accidents if there weren't automatic pilot systems?
-kalos (October 17, 2014, 05:59 AM)

IIRC autopilot was added primarily as a convenience to mitigate the really boring parts. So outside of preventing the plane from wandering off course...(making them late)...it's not really a safety system.

anandcoral · « **Reply #43 on:** October 17, 2014, 07:49 AM »

WOW! People have already started standing on two sides for this 'driverless cars'.

Well this reminds me when Apple first announced 'IPad' technology. People will be people and corporates will make money.

Well I am more concern about 'programer-less NANY'. GOD save me, if it happens.

Regards,

Anand

MilesAhead · « **Reply #44 on:** October 17, 2014, 10:00 AM »

IIRC autopilot was added primarily as a convenience to mitigate the really boring parts. So outside of preventing the plane from wandering off course...(making them late)...it's not really a safety system.
-Stoic Joker (October 17, 2014, 06:59 AM)

http://en.wikipedia....Air_Lines_Flight_401

Not so much that the Auto Pilot failed as that everyone was so complacent relying on it.

---------

Captain Kirk just before setting off a nuclear charge on the planet surface "Beam me up Scotty! Scot are you there?" Scotty says "I cannot captain. The Transporter is asking for my bloody PIN number and I forgot the damn thing!"

wraith808 · « **Reply #45 on:** October 17, 2014, 01:45 PM »

you who moan about driveless technology, you have already used it, if you have flied with an aeroplane
-kalos (October 17, 2014, 05:59 AM)

There's not a lot of cross traffic at 30,000 feet.

what is the possibility for aeroplane automatic pilot systems to fail?
-kalos (October 17, 2014, 05:59 AM)

Well... they do seem to make a point of having a someone sit there ready to take over in case an alarm goes off...and there a second someone there to back the first someone up if they're in the bathroom when the alarm goes off. So I'm guessing that somebody - who's willing to waste the money on paying all these people - thinks it is a possibility.

and how high would be the percentages of aircraft accidents if there weren't automatic pilot systems?
-kalos (October 17, 2014, 05:59 AM)

IIRC autopilot was added primarily as a convenience to mitigate the really boring parts. So outside of preventing the plane from wandering off course...(making them late)...it's not really a safety system.
-Stoic Joker (October 17, 2014, 06:59 AM)

All of the above. And it's the pilots *job* to monitor, and be willing to take over. If it is an ubiquitous technology on the streets... people can't even drive without being distracted. You want to tell me that if something unforeseen happens they'll be paying enough attention to switch over? Or even be able to react in time...

kalos · « **Reply #46 on:** October 17, 2014, 02:02 PM »

UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January

Stoic Joker · « **Reply #47 on:** October 17, 2014, 05:05 PM »

UK to allow driverless cars on public roads in January
-kalos (October 17, 2014, 02:02 PM)

Yes, some people are trying it, in some places...tentatively ...And that's fine. It's what is colloquialisticly referred to as 'sticking a toe in the water'. Nobody however is jumping to mandate it as option on all 2016 vehicles ... Which seems to be what you're pushing for. The technology is simply not mature enough.

So unless one's objective is to get a bunch of people killed...caution is warranted. Much like the article I posted earlier implied, it would be foolhardy at best to perceive this technology as a magic bullet. Because you're only going to alter which people get killed how ... Not save them all.

As the admin for many managed business networks, I see all sorts of truly bizarre issues crop up in systems that - "smart" as computers are... - then invariably require me to sort out what really went wrong after some maintenance, management, or security system completely borked the end result that the end user thought they were waiting on. So knowing this, would I be willing to bet my life on a (linear thinking) computers ability to (fail at generating a truly random number and) contend with the chaos that is modern day traffic? Hell no.

The computer can't look into the window of the cars around me and react to the fact that the driver is on the phone, disciplining an unruly child, bopping to the radio a bit too enthusiastically, or just looking totally pissed-off-at-the-world ... But I sure as shit can.

And even if everyone went driverless tomorrow - to completely remove the people factor - there will still be glitches that result in fatalities...and I'm neither willing or interested in gambling on those odds. Because nothing in IT is truly "Standard" ... And if you want proof of that feel free to pick any two routers from two different manufacturers and try to set up a VPN between them. When you're finished tearing all your hair out, think about all the different auto manufacturers, how they will design their systems, and the scant snowball's chance in hell that they will be able to effectively communicate anything useful before the point of impact..

MilesAhead · « **Reply #48 on:** October 17, 2014, 05:06 PM »

I think it is a done deal. For one thing it's just too attractive to the authorities. They can lock your doors, windows and passive restraint systems then steer you directly to jail whenever they want.

Carol Haynes · « **Reply #49 on:** October 17, 2014, 07:31 PM »

"Your car needs to reboot to install updates" WTF!