Google deletes G+ emails out of your INBOX without your consent?

[IainB]

Something that some of us might not have been aware of.
The title is taken from a post at Slashdot:
Google deletes G+ emails out of INBOX without consent?

the_B0fh writes
"Make sure you enable emailed notification in G+
Create a public post on G+.
Have a friend post a comment.
Check your INBOX — see the comment.
Have friend delete comment.
See that email disappear from your INBOX.

Isn't that a pretty major violation of trust?"

Sure looks like it could be.
However, it probably wouldn't affect me, because I have dual real-time automatic backup of my Gmail account organised. I would already have 2 copies of such a deleted email - one in each of the separate backups.

[rgdot]

Must be how their data is structured, email is just loading the "content"

[cyberdiva]

I have dual real-time automatic backup of my Gmail account organised. I would already have 2 copies of such a deleted email - one in each of the separate backups.

-IainB (June 20, 2012, 08:44 AM)

Iain, I'm just curious--what do you use to backup your Gmail account in real time?  Did you create your own backup program, or are you using a third-party software program?

[app103]

This kind of practice isn't all that new. AOL has been doing something similar for over 13 years. They allow you to unsend emails that have not been read by the recipient, as long as the emails were sent between 2 AOL members. You could look in your inbox, see an unread email from another AOL member, and then right before your eyes, watch it disappear in real-time, as the sender decides he really doesn't want you to read it.

Notice in your G+ settings that it mentions "notification delivery" and "receive notifications" and never actually explicitly states that they will "email" you a notification.

I think in the G+ case, they do not treat the notifications as if they were actual emails, so if the original message is deleted, the notification goes with it. Just because it's in your inbox doesn't mean it's an actual email, in the case of messages sent between Google services. If they had added a separate sidebar panel with those messages instead of merging them with your unread mail list and it only contained current messages, and only G+ messages, I think it would have been more obvious that they really aren't emails.

Honestly, I don't see this as anything to panic or get bent out of shape over. It's not like they are deleting emails directly sent by 3rd parties. When they start deleting DC newsletters from my inbox, then it's time to panic and grab the pitchforks. 

[IainB]

I have dual real-time automatic backup of my Gmail account organised. I would already have 2 copies of such a deleted email - one in each of the separate backups.

-IainB (June 20, 2012, 08:44 AM)

Iain, I'm just curious--what do you use to backup your Gmail account in real time?  Did you create your own backup program, or are you using a third-party software program?

-cyberdiva (June 20, 2012, 11:44 AM)

Oops, sorry. I was a bit hasty there and did not complete the statement.
What I was referring to is that I auto-forward all incoming email to a second (backup) Gmail account, and also to a Google Group (of which I am the sole member).
So that gives me almost real-time backup of all incoming email, to two locations.
The Group one is useful because I can access my email in Groups and reply to that email from within Groups, even from behind most clients' firewalls (whereas Gmail access is often blocked by default).
I rarely, if ever, use clients' email systems to conduct personal email communication.

[cyberdiva]

Thanks, IainB, for the clarification.  Interesting strategy!  My only reservation is that it still puts your email at the mercy of Google.  These days, that makes me slightly uneasy. 

[IainB]

...My only reservation is that it stil.l puts your email at the mercy of Google.  These days, that makes me slightly uneasy.

-cyberdiva (June 21, 2012, 08:52 AM)

You and me both.
I do another infrequent backup of all of the email in my main Google account.
I don't think you can trust any Google services after they have shown how they can pull a service offline at the drop of a hat.

[Paul Keith]

If I'm not mistaken, you can use ifttt.com to send e-mail to Evernote but that just puts you at the mercy of Evernote.

Dropbox works in a similar manner I think minus the reply part since there's no reverse post new note button.

I could be sorely mistaken though. I just thought the tech is possible since Evernote has an e-mail feature and ifttt.com has the pipeline.

[daddydave]

I think in the G+ case, they do not treat the notifications as if they were actual emails, so if the original message is deleted, the notification goes with it. Just because it's in your inbox doesn't mean it's an actual email, in the case of messages sent between Google services. If they had added a separate sidebar panel with those messages instead of merging them with your unread mail list and it only contained current messages, and only G+ messages, I think it would have been more obvious that they really aren't emails.

Honestly, I don't see this as anything to panic or get bent out of shape over. It's not like they are deleting emails directly sent by 3rd parties. When they start deleting DC newsletters from my inbox, then it's time to panic and grab the pitchforks. 

-app103 (June 20, 2012, 03:13 PM)

+1 what app103 said. I had a feeling they were just referring to the notifications, not the actual emails..
Seems like they did used to send actual emails,  did they change them to notifications recently?

Anyone want to comment to this public post of mine and then delete the comment so I can see what happens?

https://plus.google....12/posts/6Fgh1yEcxN9

[rgdot]

Done, deleting now

[daddydave]

Done, deleting now

-rgdot (June 21, 2012, 01:06 PM)

Thanks rgdot!

I still have the item that says you commented on my post, but it no longer contains your comment, and it just links to my post.

It also appears that old emails were also retroactively converted to notification, I had an old comment that got deleted but I still had the text of the comment, but now it too just links to my post.

Not too worried about it though, it is like a recall message feature, it may end up saving me some day.

[IainB]

Thanks, IainB, for the clarification.  Interesting strategy!...

-cyberdiva (June 21, 2012, 08:52 AM)

By the way, what gets forwarded to the backup Gmail account and to the Group is the email together with any and all attachments.
Interestingly, the Group seems to have no finite upper storage volume constraint, unlike Gmail.

[IainB]

I for one was unaware that the G+ comments could be and indeed were being subject to actions where they could be automatically removed/erased from items in your Inbox, without your say-so, as per the manner described in the opening post.

There is a general rule related to the design for privacy and security of personal email - a principle - that one's Inbox is personal, private, secure, sacrosanct and, for most purposes, inviolable.
Making the point that Yahoo or whatever have been abrogating the principle for years does nothing to ameliorate the action, merely serving to show Yahoo or whatever for what they really are. I had already arrived at the conclusion a long time ago that I wouldn't touch Yahoo with a bargepole.

For me though, this is a new discovery. It is not just that it seems to be yet another of a growing number of reasons that have surfaced for not using Gmail - and especially G+ - but one with more weight than many of the other reasons.
Whilst I had also previously arrived at the conclusion that I wouldn't touch G+ with a bargepole, it now seems that I'm definitely going to have to consider leaving Gmail after this. Which is a pity, as, being skeptical I had only slowly started to trust and rely on Google and Gmail in the first place, operating on the maxim "By their fruits ye shall know them." - Mathew 7:16.

Unfortunately, Google seems to have just undone themselves somewhat, according to the same maxim. There's not a lot you can do to repair a situation where you have once breached someone's trust. It's kinda permanent. If you can do it once, then you can do it again and probably will.

This is more evidence - if any were needed - that "Do no evil." is a just a cynical cliché. But that knowledge is not necessarily a bad thing per se, because it has at least stripped off any possibly naive trust I might have built up in Google, so that I can see them more objectively as just another mediocre service supplier on a flat grey plain of mediocre service suppliers.
Ah well, "You get what you pay for", I suppose.

PS: Not forgetting:

"Ability proves itself by deeds." (Aesop's fables - The bees and wasps, and the hornet)

[Carol Haynes]

If you want to backup GMail then MailStore does a pretty good job (set it up as an IMAP account and don't forget to enable IMAP use in GMail settings).

The home version of MailStore doesn't have scheduling but it only takes two click to set off a backup.

[daddydave]

For those looking to backup their Gmail account, you might want to check to see if Gmail/Google+ notifications would be backed up as well. It seems they might not be in the IMAP/POP3 stream since they don't appear to be actual emails.