Author Topic: Is Linux just a hobby? (Read 108314 times)

sword · « **Reply #100 on:** July 18, 2012, 04:56 PM »

@ superboyac Re: Reply #94:
"being able to install third party software on any (or most) distros without much noodling or programmer-skills necessary."

Linux Mint v12 new application install example:
Click 1) Applications, 2) Other, 3) Software manager (36,235 packages available in 12 categories). 4) Graphics (Category 614 packages in list and 6 subcategories), 5) Inkscape (description, score, reviews, homepage URL, version, size, Install/Remove), 6) Install.

Wait for install. Close Software Manager. Open Applications. Click icon/name to run.

Tuxman · « **Reply #101 on:** July 18, 2012, 05:00 PM »

Linux Mint v12 new application install example:
Click 1) Applications, 2) Other, 3) Software manager (36,235 packages available in 12 categories). 4) Graphics (Category 614 packages in list and 6 subcategories), 5) Inkscape (description, score, reviews, homepage URL, version, size, Install/Remove), 6) Install.

Wait for install. Close Software Manager. Open Applications. Click icon/name to run.
-sword (July 18, 2012, 04:56 PM)

aptitude install inkscape.

Newbie.

40hz · « **Reply #102 on:** July 18, 2012, 06:38 PM »

Linux Mint v12 new application install example:
Click 1) Applications, 2) Other, 3) Software manager (36,235 packages available in 12 categories). 4) Graphics (Category 614 packages in list and 6 subcategories), 5) Inkscape (description, score, reviews, homepage URL, version, size, Install/Remove), 6) Install.

Wait for install. Close Software Manager. Open Applications. Click icon/name to run.
-sword (July 18, 2012, 04:56 PM)
aptitude install inkscape.

Newbie.
-Tuxman (July 18, 2012, 05:00 PM)

Hey! Be nice to the newcomers.

Only problem is you need to know the exact name in the repository to do it via the CL.

BTW: I'd prefer sudo apt-get update followed by sudo apt-get install inkscape

jgpaiva · « **Reply #103 on:** July 18, 2012, 07:08 PM »

Hey! Be nice to the newcomers.

Only problem is you need to know the exact name in the repository to do it via the CL.

BTW: I'd prefer sudo apt-get update followed by sudo apt-get install inkscape
-40hz (July 18, 2012, 06:38 PM)

Also, anything that involves opening a console would probably qualify as "programmer-skills".
But I do disagree with superboyac: installing stuff in linux is 100 times easier than in windows.
Actually, now that I think about it, windows is the worst OS from this point of view: installing in Mac is even easier than linux: since the introduction of the app store, the app's site can have a link that opens the app's page in the app store where it's one click away from download and install.

wraith808 · « **Reply #104 on:** July 18, 2012, 07:32 PM »

Hey! Be nice to the newcomers.
-40hz (July 18, 2012, 06:38 PM)

Truthfully, this is the primary reason that my Linux exploration ended so early when I did it. Whenever I tried to go beyond the obvious, if I ran into problems, it was hard to get help. People would say how great Linux is and recommend that you try it, but when you do and ask a question, you would get derided for your lack of knowledge or ignored. I know that all Linux users aren't like that... but I ran into enough of them during that time that I just shrugged and reformatted the partition as I didn't see that big of an advantage from the depth I was able to get into it unaided.

superboyac · « **Reply #105 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:22 PM »

Hey! Be nice to the newcomers.
-40hz (July 18, 2012, 06:38 PM)

Truthfully, this is the primary reason that my Linux exploration ended so early when I did it. Whenever I tried to go beyond the obvious, if I ran into problems, it was hard to get help. People would say how great Linux is and recommend that you try it, but when you do and ask a question, you would get derided for your lack of knowledge or ignored. I know that all Linux users aren't like that... but I ran into enough of them during that time that I just shrugged and reformatted the partition as I didn't see that big of an advantage from the depth I was able to get into it unaided.
-wraith808 (July 18, 2012, 07:32 PM)

It's cool! As long as I can rag back on all you linux nuts. Here's one: I say buttons are easier, you guys say "actually...command line is much easier". Yes, as long as you've memorized the commands. That's like a Frenchman telling an englishman that French is easier than English. no text command is easier than a button with a universal symbol on it. typing "play" is easy, true. But it's not easier than clicking the button with the triangle. It's 4 times harder, actually...you have to press the button that has a "p" on it, then "l", then "a"...etc.

Honestly, I didn't actually try to install any programs, so I was making a statement based on nothing.

I'll tell you exactly why my linux experiment died...drivers. The mouse driver. I couldn't find a way to make it work as nicely as it did in windows, and that was too annoying for me. It's not a big deal, but I use it every 30 seconds, and I don't like feeling a little frustrated every 30 seconds. I'll give linux a little more of a shot when i get a good chunk of time.

40hz · « **Reply #106 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:44 PM »

People would say how great Linux is and recommend that you try it, but when you do and ask a question, you would get derided for your lack of knowledge or ignored. I know that all Linux users aren't like that... but I ran into enough of them
-wraith808 (July 18, 2012, 07:32 PM)

I think a lot of that has changed. At least in the USA. I haven't seen very much of that except where somebody was treating forum or irc members as their own personal unpaid support staff and getting indignant when unlimited help wasn't forthcoming. About the only time I ever got a little short with someone was when one woman introduced herself as "a consultant" who had taken on a paid project to migrate a business over to F/OSS - and stated up front she knew next to nothing about it - and could we please help her? When some of us gave her a list of websites she could look at and some books she should purchase and read first, she became indignant and abusive. Told us she "didn't have time for that" and virtually demanded we just answer her questions because "that's what Linux is supposed to be about - people helping other people for free."

Her very first question was: "How do you do a virtualization of a server?"

Where do you even begin with a person like that?

Other than that person, I haven't seen much 'newbie abuse' in the places I frequent. And what little there is usually earns the abuser a quick rebuke from several other people.

Also, anything that involves opening a console would probably qualify as "programmer-skills".
But I do disagree with superboyac: installing stuff in linux is 100 times easier than in windows.
Actually, now that I think about it, windows is the worst OS from this point of view: installing in Mac is even easier than linux: since the introduction of the app store, the app's site can have a link that opens the app's page in the app store where it's one click away from download and install.
-jgpaiva (July 18, 2012, 07:08 PM)

Agree 100%. Using the console is an intermediate skill and not really required by most users unless they want to get into it.

But in addition to easy to use package managers like Synaptic, several mainstream Linux distros are now starting to offer software stores. Ubuntu and Mint now have similar software managers that take a lot from Apple's App Store. The only difference is that 99.8% of what's listed is free for download.

Short (not that great) demo of how Linux Mint does it follows:

Like the man says: It's butterscotch, baby... butterscotch!

A quick lite review of Mint (including Software Manager) can also be seen below if you want to see what a modern Linux distro looks and works like:

40hz · « **Reply #107 on:** July 18, 2012, 09:07 PM »

It's cool! As long as I can rag back on all you linux nuts. Here's one: I say buttons are easier, you guys say "actually...command line is much easier".

-superboyac (July 18, 2012, 08:22 PM)

Rag away.

But I don't think you're going to find many Linux nuts in this forum. Users maybe. But not nuts. We just like it because it works. And the day it doesn't, we'll kick it to the curb without a second thought.

Regarding the command line: I like buttons and GUIs too although I'm pretty handy with the command line in windows, BSD, and Linux. For some things buttons are easier. When it is, I use the GUI. But for other operations, like copying an entire folder full of files with subdirectories to a new location, the command cp -r /<original loc>/* /<new loc> is easier (to me) than opening up a file manager, highlighting a bunch of stuff, and then dragging it to a new location. But that's me, so YMMV.

Where the command line really gains power is when you realize Linux (like Unix) basically treats everything as if it were a text file. So you can run a command, and then pipe the output to another command as input. And you can chain a series of such operations together in ways similar to Autohotkey and save them as a script which can be used over and over. It's a very flexible system that really comes into its own when dealing with multiple items or a series of operations.

But that's for later.

superboyac · « **Reply #108 on:** July 18, 2012, 09:38 PM »

Truthfully, I'm a little envious of the Linux users. because like you said, there is so much flexibility with the command line. You don't have to go to mouser or whatever to request every little feature!

For me it's a decision I've made to not dive into something that is not going to be a major part of my life. And Linux is not in my plans right now. I'm even avoiding learning any more nonsense career stuff at this point. I'm in a sense saving my brain for music. I only want music "memorized" if I can help it. I can deal with most other things as they come up, you know? Like Oscar Peterson said when he was asked why he didn't try his hand at other instruments..."I have a hard enough time trying to play this thing! [the piano]"

40hz · « **Reply #109 on:** July 18, 2012, 11:29 PM »

Truthfully, I'm a little envious of the Linux users.
-superboyac (July 18, 2012, 09:38 PM)

You shouldn't be IMHO. It's just a skill set. Not a gift or god-given talent.

If you're interested or you need it - you learn it. If it's not something that's important to you, it's best avoided. Only so many hours in a day - or a lifetime. Use them wisely.

P.S. Somebody did a study once and discovered something like 90% of all programmers and 80% of all "serious" computer users play at least one musical instrument. Not surprising in that rocking a PC, a guitar neck, or a piano keyboard has more overlapping brain functions than most people realize.

To me, designing a server solution is very similar to composing music. And troubleshooting a network issue is very similar to improvising a solo in the middle of a complex piece of progressive jazz.

Do anything well enough and it all starts to seem like music to me.

superboyac · « **Reply #110 on:** July 19, 2012, 12:31 AM »

Do anything well enough and it all starts to seem like music to me.
-40hz (July 18, 2012, 11:29 PM)

Gold!

barney · « **Reply #111 on:** July 19, 2012, 12:54 AM »

People would say how great Linux is and recommend that you try it, but when you do and ask a question, you would get derided for your lack of knowledge or ignored. I know that all Linux users aren't like that... but I ran into enough of them
-wraith808 (July 18, 2012, 07:32 PM)

I haven't seen very much of that except where somebody was treating forum or irc members as their own personal unpaid support staff and getting indignant when unlimited help wasn't forthcoming.
-40hz (July 18, 2012, 08:44 PM)

Well-l-l-l ... that wasn't my experience when I tried the Ubuntu forums ... reputedly (at least by Ubuntu folk) the most gracious, newbie-friendly forums on the Internet. I received more RTFMs than I ever encountered on Tek-Tips

. (Methinks I've mentioned before that DC is the only forum where I've never, to date, had someone imply that I had not RTFM. That was not my experience with the Linux arena.) I quit asking questions, started buying books that still didn't answer my questions, went back to MS.

40hz · « **Reply #112 on:** July 19, 2012, 01:06 AM »

Well-l-l-l ... that wasn't my experience when I tried the Ubuntu forums ... reputedly (at least by Ubuntu folk) the most gracious, newbie-friendly forums on the Internet. I received more RTFMs than I ever encountered on Tek-Tips
-barney (July 19, 2012, 12:54 AM)

@barney - Sorry to hear that. Seriously. I'm sorry to hear you went through that.

Out of curiosity...could you share some of the questions that got you fool-slapped? I'm not disputing your account. But it would be interesting (to me at least) to see what sort of questions got you a snarky RTFM response. Also maybe provide a ballpark idea of the date you posted them?

bobc4012 · « **Reply #113 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:11 AM »

Page 5 has a lot of interesting discussions. One advantage Linux has over Windows - FROM AN "EXPERT" viewpoint (where X = "unknown" and Spurt = "Drip under pressure") - all kidding aside - is you can obtain the source code and figure things out. Many centuries ago, I would have done that. With Windows, you cannot do it unless you work at Microsoft (or have someone on the inside) and then people are probably restricted as to what they can see (code-wise). Probably one reason why you might get a better answer on problems from the F/OSS community than you can from the Microsoft community. While MS Certification may be fine for getting a job and handling most common problems, sometimes it helps to look at the source code to see exactly what is going on. NOW, this is NOT an exercise for a NEWBIE, unless already an "XSPURT" programmer. Additionally, Unix has been around a good 10 + years longer than MS-DOS (since the early 70s) and even longer than the Windows versions. So when you do get help, chances are you have a better shot at getting good help.

@Barney

As far as a common complaint among newbies about the condescending attitude of certain "Linux XSPURTS", you have the same problem with Windows, maybe you are used to it and don't notice it as much anymore. I recently chided a couple of people on an XP Pro forum for their attitude when someone (not a novice either) asked for help on XP Home. A couple of the repsonders came back with the attitude "Well, you should be using XP Pro". Needless to say, after I chided one for the response, a number of others proceeded to "tear a new one" for those two. They did "humbly apologize", but the person who had the question basically told the people on the board where to go if that was the attitude.

I have been having problems with Windows 7 - buggy piece of "mierda". When I was looking for ideas, one person asked what my H/W was (after I already provided the config and that it was less than a year old). After I mentioned the brand, the reply was "well that's what you deserve for buying that piece of H/W crap". So Linux boards are not the only ones who have people with attitudes, so do Windows boards and, most likely, the Apple boards too. The world is full of "fornicating recto orifices", so it should be no surprise to find them on blogs, forums, etc. I find 3 or 4 boards that I like and stick with them. Contribute when I can and ask for help when needed.

Tuxman · « **Reply #114 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:46 AM »

I have to disagree with the statement that was a direct reply to mine above.

apt-get is officially deprecated, usage of aptitude is encouraged. Also you don't have to know exact package names, modern package managers are able to suggest the right package when you type the binary name.

That said, how can Linux be a hobby when you ignore its powers?

Tuxman · « **Reply #115 on:** July 19, 2012, 03:50 AM »

... Also, RTFM is the most helpful answer I could imagine. If everyone would RTFM more, there were no stupid questions anymore.

Answering your questions might help you in one special case, but it can not teach you the Whys and Whats.

jgpaiva · « **Reply #116 on:** July 19, 2012, 04:14 AM »

apt-get is officially deprecated, usage of aptitude is encouraged.
-Tuxman (July 19, 2012, 03:46 AM)

Actually, aptitude was removed in the most recent versions of ubuntu. I do agree with you, though: its conflict resolution is much superior to apt-get.

Also you don't have to know exact package names, modern package managers are able to suggest the right package when you type the binary name.
-Tuxman (July 19, 2012, 03:46 AM)

Also, there's "apt-get search". Very useful stuff indeed.

... Also, RTFM is the most helpful answer I could imagine. If everyone would RTFM more, there were no stupid questions anymore.
-Tuxman (July 19, 2012, 03:50 AM)

I don't think so. The manual was built for people who have reached a certain level of knowledge. If you can't understand what it says, search on it, switch pages, etc then it's useless. Also, the manual does not answer questions like "how can I install new software" unless you know where to look, which would require you to also know the answer to your question

Tuxman · « **Reply #117 on:** July 19, 2012, 05:06 AM »

Actually, aptitude was removed in the most recent versions of ubuntu.
-jgpaiva (July 19, 2012, 04:14 AM)

Hahaha, Ubuntu. Being different is their only purpose.
Debian tells us the opposite.

At the present time, aptitude is the recommended tool for interaction with the APT suite.

(source)

I don't think so. The manual was built for people who have reached a certain level of knowledge.
-jgpaiva (July 19, 2012, 04:14 AM)

Not if they start with chapter 1 which usually teaches the basics.

Also, the manual does not answer questions like "how can I install new software"
-jgpaiva (July 19, 2012, 04:14 AM)

It does. Search for "install software".

40hz · « **Reply #118 on:** July 19, 2012, 07:50 AM »

I have to disagree with the statement that was a direct reply to mine above.

apt-get is officially deprecated, usage of aptitude is encouraged. Also you don't have to know exact package names, modern package managers are able to suggest the right package when you type the binary name.

-Tuxman (July 19, 2012, 03:46 AM)

How can you disagree with someone personally preferring something for their own use?

There's a difference between talking about something and advocating for something.

jgpaiva · « **Reply #119 on:** July 19, 2012, 08:03 AM »

Hahaha, Ubuntu. Being different is their only purpose.
-Tuxman (July 19, 2012, 05:06 AM)

Ubuntu are that kind of annoying. I'd like to know the reasons behind that decision (but I'm too lazy to search

). The only plausible justification for me is to avoid invalidating the hundreds of tutorials out there that use apt-get. However, even that sounds like a non-problem, it'd be a matter of warning the user that they should use aptitude instead, when she tries to use apt-get. (or just tell them to RTFM and lose more users to mac?)

Not if they start with chapter 1 which usually teaches the basics.
-Tuxman (July 19, 2012, 05:06 AM)

To be honest, I'm a CS phd student, I've used linux for 5 years and I have no idea what you're talking about

Is that "man man"? Are the users supposed to figure that out when someone replies "RTFM"? Also, typing "man" in the console gets the very useful message "What manual page do you want?", and "man 1" (for page 1?

) gets "No manual entry for 1 (Alternatively, what manual page do you want from section 1?)" and "man 1 1" (for section 1, page 1?

) gets "No manual entry for 1 in section 1".

Also, the manual does not answer questions like "how can I install new software"
-jgpaiva (July 19, 2012, 04:14 AM)
It does. Search for "install software".
-Tuxman (July 19, 2012, 05:06 AM)

Yeah, I really like its awesome question-answering algorithms to figure out answers to newbie questions. I'm sure newbies love it too.

Maybe I'm biased, but there's no way you're ever going to convince me that RTFM is a helpful reply to someone who has never used linux or a console at all, so maybe it's best that we do not pursue this issue anymore.

Tuxman · « **Reply #120 on:** July 19, 2012, 08:12 AM »

Manual, not only manpages, pal.

Tuxman · « **Reply #121 on:** July 19, 2012, 08:12 AM »

How can you disagree with someone personally preferring something for their own use?
-40hz (July 19, 2012, 07:50 AM)

By using words.

wraith808 · « **Reply #122 on:** July 19, 2012, 11:10 AM »

How can you disagree with someone personally preferring something for their own use?
-40hz (July 19, 2012, 07:50 AM)

By using words.
-Tuxman (July 19, 2012, 08:12 AM)

By using words that make no difference in preference?

Tuxman · « **Reply #123 on:** July 19, 2012, 11:11 AM »

Josh · « **Reply #124 on:** July 19, 2012, 11:24 AM »

How can you disagree with someone personally preferring something for their own use?
-40hz (July 19, 2012, 07:50 AM)

By using words.
-Tuxman (July 19, 2012, 08:12 AM)

By using words that make no difference in preference?
-wraith808 (July 19, 2012, 11:10 AM)

Wraith, it is users like this that are the reason I have a distaste for most of the Linux community. It is the elitist attitude that is still present in several old-time Linux users that really detracts from the overall Linux movement.