Welcome to Big Brother UK

[joiwind]

The government will be able to monitor the calls, emails, texts and website visits of everyone in the UK under new legislation set to be announced soon.

[Carol Haynes]

Email and web use 'to be monitored' under new laws

See http://www.bbc.co.uk...uk-politics-17576745

[nudone]

Would have made a nice April Fool story.

[KynloStephen66515]

Would have made a nice April Fool story.

-nudone (April 01, 2012, 04:34 PM)

It certainly reads like one

[Carol Haynes]

This is not the first time this sort of legislation has been tried in the UK. Ironically the current Conservative leadership opposed it when they were in opposition.

[nudone]

Okay, I think i've had enough now. I've just been reading the "rules" for the new UK and EU Cookie Law. Not only is our world turning into a Techno 1984, it's also going to parody Kafka at his best...

We are going to have perplexing laws that protect our privacy online by pretending to control cookies (and thereby grinding the web to a halt), whilst having other pointless laws to make a mockery of such "privacy".

Like, er, wow, just wow. I'm kind of in a state of shock.

[IainB]

If this is not an April Fool's joke, then it at least categorically confirms what seemed to be the direction that probably had to be and was being taken to improve security in the UK anyway.
It is presumably substantiated by the fact that the UK needs to massively strengthen its internal security. The IRA bombings were one thing - and they have stopped - but the current state of affairs arguably started or came to the forefront for urgent attention with the need for dramatically increased security and protection from "home-grown" Islamic jihad terrorists - e.g., such as in the cases of the 2005-07-07 London transport (bus/underground) bombings, and later the prosecutions of foiled Islamic terrorist bomb plots. This form of internal Islamic jihad/terrorism is apparently becoming a systemic and growing problem as the UK demography changes (nothing stands still).
Then the case of the London Chav riots of August 2011, just highlighted that in all the cases it was clear that telecommunications were key factors in preparing/executing the felonies, and in solving the cases afterwards so that they could be properly prosecuted in law.

I detest the interference of Orwellian-like Big Brother or statist government in citizens' affairs. What is happening in the UK is arguably part of the thin end of the wedge of Totalitarianism, but I suspect that the UK government - like the US - has found itself with few options left. Given that a proper government has the mandate to protect civilians and their property, it would be irrational not to use those options. Failure to do so would present the police and armed forces with an impossible responsibility for internal security.

At least the UK has not yet (to my knowledge) followed the US in setting up - apparently at great cost to the taxpayer and for little apparent return - what are effectively separate government-directed bureaucracies or internal armies or police/security operations. These operations seem to exist to prevent or work against what is essentially potential civil unrest or civil non-compliance - e.g., the Department of Homeland Security (motto: Preserving Our Freedoms, Protecting America), the EPA, and the TSA.

Give it time, I suppose...

[Carol Haynes]

How do you know they don't exist? I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were extra secret departments.

The UK and the US can in no way be called democracies in any acceptable sense of the world. Both countries are becoming increasingly totalitarian in their attitudes, using the police and armed forces to suppress any kind of real dissent,  and the UK is becoming more of an effective dictatorship daily with the small cabal (the inner cabinet) riding roughshod over parliament and even over the views of their own party. The UK masks the descent by having meaningless elections every five years but given that the political parties are all equally corrupt and all have basically the same policies and approaches to political reform it can only get worse!

[mahesh2k]

These types of actions are in public because there are still some people within government who care about public. What will happen when every person within government gets sold and new policies will be passed without much public releases? We've seen that happened here in India and now BBM, Skype, Yahoo Messenger and Gtalk logs are shared with government if there is any connection made from this country to war zone (sensitive countries). So we're reacting on things that we read/see in news otherwise many things are done in dark and public is not aware of it.

[Renegade]

EDIT - Oh bugger... I mucked this up... Modified when I meant to quote...


Quote from: IainB on 2012-04-02, 09:50:10
It is presumably substantiated by the fact that the UK needs to massively strengthen its internal security. The IRA bombings were one thing - and they have stopped - but the current state of affairs arguably started or came to the forefront for urgent attention with the need for dramatically increased security and protection from "home-grown" Islamic jihad terrorists - e.g., such as in the cases of the 2005-07-07 London transport (bus/underground) bombings, and later the prosecutions of foiled Islamic terrorist bomb plots. This form of internal Islamic jihad/terrorism is apparently becoming a systemic and growing problem as the UK demography changes (nothing stands still).


7/7 was most likely a staged event by a criminal, terrorist government, and not any "bogeymen terrorists".

A quick search turns up a staggering amount of evidence. Here's one:

http://www.globalresearch...hp?context=va&aid=782

Most "terrorist" actions originate with western governments, and not any "jihadists".

Oklahoma city... The FBI ran it. Do a search. It's all out there.

The *first* World Trade Center bombings... FBI again running that. Do a search. It's all out there.

Looking for more false flag terrorism? There are simply too many to count. Gulf of Tonkin. The Spanish-American war. This stuff is par for the course. The only rational reaction is to assume that any given terrorist act is a false flag. They're THAT common. It's irrational to assume that the "terrorists" are actual terrorists that are not run by the US/UK, etc.

These criminals are habitual, ritualistic monsters. If it works once, it'll work again, and false flag terrorism has been working for them for a VERY long time.

Sheesh... These are the same people that released the head of Auschwitz after a few years then put him in control of a PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY. The Nazis weren't defeated... They were just absorbed into the Allies. Check it out... I'm not going to do anybody's homework here. All this stuff is out in the open for anyone to find out.


Quote from: IainB on 2012-04-02, 09:50:10
I detest the interference of Orwellian-like Big Brother or statist government in citizens' affairs. What is happening in the UK is arguably part of the thin end of the wedge of Totalitarianism, but I suspect that the UK government - like the US - has found itself with few options left. Given that a proper government has the mandate to protect civilians and their property, it would be irrational not to use those options. Failure to do so would present the police and armed forces with an impossible responsibility for internal security.


-1

Out of options?!?! Huh? How about the US/UK governments STOP staging terrorist attacks? That's one option.

There is NO excuse for curtailing liberty or freedom. You don't get security that way. You lose it.

DEMOCIDE - When governments murder people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Quote
...Rummel estimates that there have been 262 million victims of democide in the last century.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -Benjamin Franklin

Sheesh... I've cited that quote so many times here that I really should put it in my sig... [done]

And yeah... Once they take away enough liberty and freedom, they'll start killing people. The US President has already started murdering people without due process...

WE NEED TO WAKE UP! THESE GOVERNMENTS ARE OWNED AND RUN BY MURDEROUS CRIMINALS!


Quote from: Carol Haynes on 2012-04-02, 10:01:53
How do you know they don't exist? I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were extra secret departments.

The UK and the US can in no way be called democracies in any acceptable sense of the world. Both countries are becoming increasingly totalitarian in their attitudes, using the police and armed forces to suppress any kind of real dissent,  and the UK is becoming more of an effective dictatorship daily with the small cabal (the inner cabinet) riding roughshod over parliament and even over the views of their own party. The UK masks the descent by having meaningless elections every five years but given that the political parties are all equally corrupt and all have basically the same policies and approaches to political reform it can only get worse!


+1

The US is a police state. They just ramrodded the American people again with legislation to take control of everything and anything and declare marshal law for any reason they damn well feel like, e.g. "a threat of terrorism". Oh puh-lease!

I believe in fairies, elves, and leprechauns more than I believe in "terrorists". Search YouTube for videos about them in Iceland - interesting.

But seriously... I don't believe in terrorists. They're invented boogeymen used to scare people into surrendering their freedoms.

Regarding the parties... You're bang on.

It's a left/right illusion of choice. You have none. They're the same monster posing in two different masks. The left/right paradigm is nothing short of complete bullshit to deceive people into thinking that they live in a "free and democratic" society.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Hell... Obama is a better Bush than Bush was! What is different about him? Nothing. "Yes we can deceive the American public and enslave them..."

Regarding:
 
Quote
it can only get worse!

I think that if more people wake up to this left/right BS and realize what is going on, we can avoid the dark future these criminals are planning for us all.

Just ask yourself... WHY IS THERE SUCH A VISCIOUS, CONCERTED ATTACK ON FREEDOM THAT HAS ACCELERATED MASSIVELY IN SUCH A SHORT TIME?

There's a reason... We only need to wake up enough to ask that question and look into things a bit more...



EDIT:

Let me quickly add:

Quote

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." - U.S. President James Madison

I believe in fairies, elves, and leprechauns more than I believe in "terrorists". Search YouTube for videos about them in Iceland - interesting.

Proof in the power of fairies and magic!

http://www.businessw...-recovery-story.html

Icelanders who pelted parliament with rocks in 2009 demanding their leaders and bankers answer for the country’s economic and financial collapse are reaping the benefits of their anger.

Since the end of 2008, the island’s banks have forgiven loans equivalent to 13 percent of gross domestic product, easing the debt burdens of more than a quarter of the population, according to a report published this month by the Icelandic Financial Services Association.

If that's not supernatural, I don't know what is~!

[Carol Haynes]

These types of actions are in public because there are still some people within government who care about public.

-mahesh2k (April 01, 2012, 08:56 PM)

I can't comment on that without being extremely rude

What will happen when every person within government gets sold and new policies will be passed without much public releases?

Have you been watching what has happened over the last couple of decades in the US and UK? Almost all politicians are under the financial (and hence political) control of somebody else, and if they remain too independent their own political parties treat them as too hot to handle and through them to the wolves.

Anyone who genuinely thinks that policies in the US and UK have anything to do with responsibility to the public must be incredibly naive.

Politicians order of priorities are as follows:

1) Protect your arse to be re-elected - so don't upset the party or the parties largely self interested financial backers
2) Don't piss of the rabidly fascist Murdoch press - that will get you out of politics rapidly
3) Do whatever is necessary to raise your own profile - the greasy pole to power, influence and guaranteed money
4) Do whatever is necessary to raise money - for your own career and the party*
5) Do whatever is necessary to protect your post politics career
6) Hope to hell you get a safe seat at the next election so that you can do it all again in 5 years

* Recent UK example of this in the UK - got £250000 - great we can get you to a private meeting with the Prime Minister. This approach to lobbying for money seems to happen in every government in the last few decades. Of course no one ever loses their job (they may be briefly demoted for public face) or face fraud or conspiracy charges in court.

Finally the idea that legislation gets a fair hearing and is well scrutinised is completely laughable. In the US most legislation includes so many irrelevant clauses in the hope (and usually the achievement for the leaders) that no one reads they can get anything through. It is only public scrutiny  that stands any chance of shaming politicians into making a rational or 'principled response'. No one in the US read the PATRIOT Act - and look what that did for the American Constitution! George Bush juniors political 'advisers' were masters at selling totalitarian crap - call it something that no one can possibly fight against without appearing 'liberal' or a traitor and it will go through with all sides voting for it. WHo could be against the PATRIOT Act - who ants to be seen as unpatriotic!

The UK is even worse if anything - they don't even bother to hide what they are doing - and most legislation is designed over drinks onn the back of an envelope and that is about the only place it gets any real scrutiny. The House of Parliament (even in the current coalition government) rarely don't get their way when it comes to the vote in the commons. Ironically the best chance of getting legislation stopped is the undemocratic, unelected House of Lords who have nothing to lose by speaking their mind!

Last thought - in any western countries these days if you want to get legislation passed you just cite public safety and terrorism as a mantra!

[IainB]

@Carol Haynes:

How do you know they don't exist?

Yes, well, of course I don't know that (How could I know?), it's just that I am unaware of any, that's all.

(For all I know, fairies do exist, but I don't have any evidence that they do, or evidence that they don't. That might be because I am unable to see them.)

I'm sorry, I never thought I'd be supporting increased censorship of the Internet in the UK, but I know that that is what I was effectively doing in my comments above. I don't see any viable options.

@mahesh2k points out what has been going on in India, and I would guess that NZ may be travelling in a similar direction. Creeping and progressive censorship, judicial secrecy, police clampdowns, and the unprecedented and gross breach of privacy by the state that seems to be accompanying that. Being powerless, we probably feel obliged to take it all lying down. This is probably happening regardless of whether opportunistic corruption is rampant.

@Renegade's rant about conspiracy, whilst alarming, doesn't yet stand up as proven - at least, not in the UK as far as I can see, though I am still investigating the references he makes. It may be different in the US, where Totalitarianism does seem (e.g., from comments by some US people in this forum) to be taking a firm grip, and there certainly seem to be some very funny things about 911 and the aftermath - including the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and oh-so-belatedly taking out Osma Bin Laden in Pakistan.

The trials of the various Islamic jihadists in the UK, over the years, were well-publicised. The defendants generally did not deny what they did, as far as I recall. They seemed proud of what they had been doing, because it was jihad - a holy war - with Allah on your side and Paradise (+72 virgins) waiting for you if you got killed doing it. Not a bad exchange, that.
So, I don't believe in jihadists or terrorists, or whatever you want to call them - I know they are there, because we could see them standing in front of us in open court, as it were, usually proudly admitting what they did and in front of a jury.

So what are the UK authorities to do about it all? The jihadist terrorists will probably keep spawning, if Allah tells them to. If the authorities are running out of options (and I suspect that they are), then they are probably doing their level best to keep the lid on this pressure-cooker (get security under control), knowing full well that it is almost guaranteed to be at the expense of freedom. The jihadists/chav rioters/anarchists/criminals won't stop from using telecommunications to progress their objectives.

If we were in that position, I wonder whether any of us could do anything that might make things better for the future.

[Carol Haynes]

The trouble is if they know all of their emails, phone calls and internet traffic are being monitored they will simply find more secure ways of talking to each other and sharing information.

Ultimately we are supposed to be protecting democracy and freedom (not that I believe that truly exists anywhere no beyond the theoretical) but all these measures in the 'name of security' do the terrorists job for them and make us all feel like criminals.

Also, don't believe that once the government starts collecting this data that it will be restricted to the stated purpose - we have already seen extreme breaches of privacy in the UK.

One notable example is police retention of DNA collected from the public. Even if you voluntary give a DNA sample to rule you out as a suspect in a crime your DNA is kept on record for a minimum of 2 years (which was only reduced to that level with the police kicking a screaming that the public wanted to remove their ability to do their job).

[Renegade]

@Renegade's rant about conspiracy, whilst alarming, doesn't yet stand up as proven - at least, not in the UK as far as I can see, though I am still investigating the references he makes. It may be different in the US, where Totalitarianism does seem (e.g., from comments by some US people in this forum) to be taking a firm grip, and there certainly seem to be some very funny things about 911 and the aftermath - including the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and oh-so-belatedly taking out Osma Bin Laden in Pakistan.

-IainB (April 02, 2012, 04:18 AM)

It may be that the UK isn't a complete police state yet... But do you seriously need to wait for proof?

That's kind of like having someone in front of you screaming that there's a fellow behind you with a knife and refusing to do anything because you don't have eyes in the back of your head.

By the time you have proof, it's too late.

The trials of the various Islamic jihadists in the UK, over the years, were well-publicised. The defendants generally did not deny what they did, as far as I recall. They seemed proud of what they had been doing, because it was jihad - a holy war - with Allah on your side and Paradise (+72 virgins) waiting for you if you got killed doing it. Not a bad exchange, that.

-IainB (April 02, 2012, 04:18 AM)

The typical story is that one of the intelligence services or police go out, recruit some borderline guy (or group), then push them over the edge, supply them with all the weapons they need... This is not really any kind of conspiracy. It's on record. Many times.

Who's the real criminal there? A bunch of guys that got suckered into becoming jihadists? Or the thugs behind them?

Just search for the origins of Al-Qaeda.

Hell... The US is now throwing its support behind the MEK - and the MEK is on the US terrorist list! Check it out. I'm not kidding.

http://en.wikipedia....;s_Mujahedin_of_Iran

http://www.historyco...ce_against_iran_1981

http://www.washingto...port-terrorists.html

http://mideast.forei..._support_for_the_mek


THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS THE LARGEST STATE SPONSOR OF TERROR. PERIOD.

Does anyone really think that the British and Israeli intellgence services are any cleaner? They're just a little bit better at not getting caught as often as the Americans. But you can still find TONNES of seriously evil dirt on them. There's no shortage to go around.

In short, whatever dirt you hear about the CIA, MI-6 and Mossad are doing just about the same thing, except that the Israelis tend to attack the Americans fairly often then blame someone else, where the Americans don't tend to like killing Jews much.

So, I don't believe in jihadists or terrorists, or whatever you want to call them - I know they are there, because we could see them standing in front of us in open court, as it were, usually proudly admitting what they did and in front of a jury.

-IainB (April 02, 2012, 04:18 AM)

Sure... I "know" that "they" are there... But they're just not really who they're made out to be. What they're being made out to be is no more real than the Icelandic fairies and elves.

So what are the UK authorities to do about it all? The jihadist terrorists will probably keep spawning, if Allah tells them to.

-IainB (April 02, 2012, 04:18 AM)

I think that's "if the director of the CIA tells them to".

Seriously. Look up the origins. Tons of links to all manner of sources starting here:

http://www.infowars....da-100-pentagon-run/

If the authorities are running out of options (and I suspect that they are), then they are probably doing their level best to keep the lid on this pressure-cooker (get security under control), knowing full well that it is almost guaranteed to be at the expense of freedom.

-IainB (April 02, 2012, 04:18 AM)

"At the expense of freedom" is NEVER an excuse. Never.

It is the litany used by tyrants. "Give me your freedoms, and I will protect you."

That's ALWAYS how it starts. All tyrants come as protectors and saviours in the beginning. Always.

The jihadists/chav rioters/anarchists/criminals won't stop from using telecommunications to progress their objectives.

-IainB (April 02, 2012, 04:18 AM)

Surveillance is idiotic. Anyone here can easily thwart surveillance with off-the-shelf encryption. Sure, it might be possible to waste a few weeks of time for a few thousand servers... But then again you can just up the ante on the encryption.

(If anyone knows of any "backdoors" to the most current encryption schemes, please chime in. I am not aware of any backdoors or exploits that can compromise any of the strong encryption schemes out there.)

So it's basically pointless. They're NOT going to eavesdrop on "terrorists". They're going to eavesdrop on YOU AND ME~!

If we were in that position, I wonder whether any of us could do anything that might make things better for the future.

-IainB (April 02, 2012, 04:18 AM)

I don't think it's that hard...

1) Stop running around the world murdering people.
2) Try to be friends with people instead of killing them.

Ummm... That's about it. It takes a lot more energy to run around murdering people than it takes to sit around drinking beer and having a few laughs.

i.e. You gain more security by being friends with people, then actively trying to turn everyone into enemies.

I don't think that's very complicated, though it's likely a bit too complex for the feeble minds that rule us...

[IainB]

Well between the convictions and expostulations of @Carol Haynes and @Renegade, I rather feel as though have been sent packing with my tail between my legs and with a bunch of references to follow up and increase my education. Thankyou, I think.

I always expect there to be a rational explanation for everything, and from experience, I have found that if you research well enough, then you will generally be able to find that rational explanation. I'm not sure I can see a solid rationale or a pattern that makes sense in this discussion though.
I mean, what explains the relatively recent, apparently simultaneous and remorseless attacks on freedom and democracy, that seem to be progressing on various religio-political ideological fronts across several Western nations? I just want to live in peace, but I would rather that peace didn't have to be earned in a war where we have to kill a lot of people just to get that peace. Our forefathers already did that 65 years ago.
Yes, I know that corruption is rife and that several leading Nazis were recruited after the war, to important roles in the Western World, and many of them were allowed to escape into anonymity in South America and hold onto their ill-gotten gains deposited into anonymous Swiss bank accounts. But those generations have passed, and are not able to influence us now - though of course the timeless religio-political ideologies that drove them will probably never die. And there are more and newer religio-political ideologies to drive us into conflict, each seemingly as bonkers as the next.

I'm going to have a cup of tea and a lie-down and a think about it all.

[Carol Haynes]

There was a very good series on the BBC a while ago about the political exploitation of fear to justify any power grab politicians want.

See: http://en.wikipedia...._Power_of_Nightmares

You may be able to find it online somewhere. I found it rather frightening but really quite convincing too.

Interesting quote (does it remind anyone of any countries in recent years?):

[Renegade]

@IainB - Sorry. It was not my intent to attack there or anything of the sort. This is one of those topics where I'm pretty much constitutionally incapable of holding back much. (Though I still do quite a bit -- let's all be thankful that I don't say what I really think. )

@Carol - I LOVE that quote. It's too bad that so many people don't understand that while Goering was an evil SOB, he certainly wasn't stupid, and they would do well to heed some of his words.

Here's a little tidbit back on topic:

21 Signs That The UK Is Being Transformed Into A Hellish Big Brother Surveillance Society

Some very good points in there along with lots of links to relevant resources and more information on the topic.

FAIR WARNING: If you prefer to stay asleep, don't click the above link. Ignorance = strength. (Yeah... I'm totally baiting/daring you there~! )

Here's a quick excerpt:

The madness going on in the UK is where the rest of the world is headed.  Right now, there are more surveillance cameras per capita in the UK than anywhere else in the world.  If you accidentally drop a couple of potato chips in public, or if you whisper a phrase that is not politically correct in a restaurant there is a good chance that you will be hauled into court.  In the UK, the public has been sold the lie that society will be better off if everything and everyone is constantly monitored.  But instead of improving society, what all of this surveillance is really doing is turning the entire nation into a very frightening version of George Orwell's 1984.

...

#13 Parents at one school in the UK were forced to undergo criminal background checks to prove that they were not pedophiles before they were allowed to accompany their own children to school Christmas events.

...

#17 In the UK, it is now illegal to photograph the police for any reason whatsoever.

There's more utterly insane, wonky stuff in there. Get your barf-bag, because if you love freedom and liberty, and are in any way averse to being enslaved under a totalitarian police state, you're going to vomit.

[4wd]

21 Signs That The UK Is Being Transformed Into A Hellish Big Brother Surveillance Society

-Renegade (April 02, 2012, 08:19 PM)

Regarding #6, while it's undoubtedly true that the UK has more CCTV per capita than any other country, the statistics they use, (from a survey in ~2005), to arrive at the quoted figures are open to scrutiny.

Another view of those figures: FactCheck: how many CCTV cameras?

And #19 is just plain bullsh!t.  She is not working in her garden, she is working on a public village flowerbed.  As such she is bound by the same OHS directives that council workers/tradespeople/etc are.

[mahesh2k]

Have you been watching what has happened over the last couple of decades in the US and UK? Almost all politicians are under the financial (and hence political) control of somebody else, and if they remain too independent their own political parties treat them as too hot to handle and through them to the wolves.

That is not just the case of US but almost every country in Europe/Asia. Political tricks are often emulated across the pond by all of these politicians. You have heard about RIAA/MPAA's impact in music/movie industry in India (and some other countries in asia). All the movie studios and labels owned or in partnership with some of the US based brands (Like Time warner, 21st century fox etc) are forcing to bring censorship on net in order to control their business. As for politicians, we have same situations here, each party has their own agenda and they try to push something that benefits their lobby.

The reason I said there are people who bring this to public is because it is easy to become hero by exposing each other for their acts and gain votes or win 5 minutes of fame. So not only politicians but media and some of the NGO's bring such to public's attention for their own benefit. They get their fame or money from the lobbies and after some time we all forget some of these policies and adapt to it.

As for patriotic act, you can't asses that issue from neutral ground anymore after so much involvement of that country in middle east and almost every other islamic country. If they don't pass that act and let any random tom-dick-harry to pass through their country and do his/her thing then normal citizens of america are in danger. Why? because often terrorists target normal people and not politicians to make their point or to grab attention. Though I hate that patriotic act, it's necessary evil which lobbyist and politicians are pushing because of their own messed up situation and for profit. Soon, America will be under birdcage of their own restrictive policies and fear culture and if not, they'll be targeted by people they pissed off in middle east. And it's not even made-up situation by FBI anymore, to some extent there are groups working to harm united states. Even in India, when 26/11 happened, terrorists were after American and British citizens and they spared people from other countries. That tells me everything about the other side of fence.

Last thought - in any western countries these days if you want to get legislation passed you just cite public safety and terrorism as a mantra!

Not true. Legislation is passed with or without public interest. Legislations are passed to the large extent due to lobby interests. SOPA is the only legislation that was opposed all over the globe due to it's impact on American economy (directly or indirectly) and that's why RIAA/MPAA lobby failed to convince other business lobbies for that act. You know the result right? You're assuming that large percentage of Americans are conservatives and that's why terrorism mantra works and that is far from truth. Many liberals, non-liberal-non-conservative crowd is moving away from these type of claims. You know why ron paul is developing some followings? He wants to legalize marijuna, oppose sopa and every other white-collar issues that are ignored by republicans and other liberal parties. The reason obama won last time because he was *not* bush and people never wanted that war. Obama delivered that and there is no direct signs of war with any country today( though some random clashes do exist but no panic signs). The problem with developed nations like united states is that infrastructure and social development issues are negligible and for that reason politicians create artificial problems like - gays in military, prayers in school, Dream of America as a Christian nation, war with terrorism and intellectual property rights issues.

Do you know Santorum made deal with some random SEO agency(as per SEOMoz) for positive reviews across the Internet. Don't be surprised if tomorrow Google or any other SE gets sold with billion of dollars deal to screen negative reviews for these politicians or even get ISP's to block such websites. That is the future, I don't want to see.

[Renegade]

Regarding #6, while it's undoubtedly true that the UK has more CCTV per capita than any other country, the statistics they use, (from a survey in ~2005), to arrive at the quoted figures are open to scrutiny.

-4wd (April 03, 2012, 12:49 AM)

6 of one. It's a buttload of cameras. Who really cares if it's 3 or 4 or 5 million? The point is that it's a surveillance state.

Another view of those figures: FactCheck: how many CCTV cameras?

-4wd (April 03, 2012, 12:49 AM)

Sure. Could be. I don't think that the exact number is really that important. It's kind of like arguing over how many bullet holes you see in a corpse. The point there is the guy is dead.

And #19 is just plain bullsh!t.  She is not working in her garden, she is working on a public village flowerbed.  As such she is bound by the same OHS directives that council workers/tradespeople/etc are.

-4wd (April 03, 2012, 12:49 AM)

Not so sure... The point I get there is that the council is full of control freaks.

Like seriously... You have a little old lady doing some free gardening for you... and you want to what?!?

The increase of rules and regulations is a sure sign of a police state. This is merely a small symptom - city bureaucrats j***ing off on a power trip.

At some point it's ok to be sane. This is a clear case of "don't look a gift horse in the mouth".

[Renegade]

Though I hate that patriotic act, it's necessary evil which lobbyist and politicians are pushing because of their own messed up situation and for profit.

-mahesh2k (April 03, 2012, 03:22 AM)

Here's the problem -- evil isn't necessary. I don't think that government needs to be evil like we are seeing now.

Last thought - in any western countries these days if you want to get legislation passed you just cite public safety and terrorism as a mantra!

Not true. Legislation is passed with or without public interest. Legislations are passed to the large extent due to lobby interests.

-mahesh2k (April 03, 2012, 03:22 AM)

I think the Goering quote above just about says it all regarding this.

Ah heck! Let's add in a quote from Plato:

This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.

You know why ron paul is developing some followings? He wants to legalize marijuna, oppose sopa and every other white-collar issues that are ignored by republicans and other liberal parties.

-mahesh2k (April 03, 2012, 03:22 AM)

I think his #1 selling point is that he's against the police state, and people are waking up as the police state agenda accelerates.

The reason obama won last time because he was *not* bush and people never wanted that war. Obama delivered that and there is no direct signs of war with any country today( though some random clashes do exist but no panic signs).

-mahesh2k (April 03, 2012, 03:22 AM)

They're still in Afghanistan, and while they've officially pulled out of Iraq, they've left behind "Blackwater" (or whatever they call themselves now).

Obama really is just a new & improved Bush. But he's still a bit of an idiot as he doesn't know that there is no "English Embassy":

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/213984.html



No. Wait. That's probably still an improvement on Bush's near illiteracy!

Since Al-Qaeda is now publicly being funded by the US against Syria, do we count that as "US troops"? The US has airlifted Al-Qaeda troops from North Africa to Syria... That's kind of a fuzzy area.

And as for other direct signs of war, do we count the numerous threats by the US against Iran? Does the US-Israeli alliance count when Israel continually makes threats against Iran? Like, we know they're going to invade Iran. It's only a matter of time. They just need to come up with a more believable false flag first to justify the invasion. Those old nuclear aircraft carriers in the gulf that are scheduled to be decommissioned are looking pretty tasty~! Nom-nom-nom~!

The problem with developed nations like united states is that infrastructure and social development issues are negligible and for that reason politicians create artificial problems like - gays in military, prayers in school, Dream of America as a Christian nation, war with terrorism and intellectual property rights issues.

-mahesh2k (April 03, 2012, 03:22 AM)

+1

Pretty much if it's an issue with a politician, the chances are there are much, much more important issues that are being hidden.

Do you know Santorum made deal with some random SEO agency(as per SEOMoz) for positive reviews across the Internet. Don't be surprised if tomorrow Google or any other SE gets sold with billion of dollars deal to screen negative reviews for these politicians or even get ISP's to block such websites. That is the future, I don't want to see.

-mahesh2k (April 03, 2012, 03:22 AM)

That's interesting. Do you have a link? I'd like to read that! (I didn't find one at SEOMoz.)

[4wd]

And #19 is just plain bullsh!t.  She is not working in her garden, she is working on a public village flowerbed.  As such she is bound by the same OHS directives that council workers/tradespeople/etc are.

-4wd (April 03, 2012, 12:49 AM)

Not so sure... The point I get there is that the council is full of control freaks.

Like seriously... You have a little old lady doing some free gardening for you... and you want to what?!?

The increase of rules and regulations is a sure sign of a police state.

-Renegade (April 03, 2012, 05:49 AM)

Not in this case, here it is a result of the penchant for everyone suing everyone else at the drop of a hat and the attendant insurance stipulations that arise from that.  She's working on Council property, she has to abide by their OHS rules.

If she was working in that flowerbed and a car flattened her, the council is responsible and it's their a..e they're covering.

It would have been different if she had just been sitting on a bench there but she was working - free or not, it doesn't matter.

The same applies here in Australia under OHS, that's why all the police, council workers and any public/private employees wear hi-vis gear when they're out working on public land/roads because if they're not and the WorkSafe people see them, they will be fined for unsafe work practices and their employer is likely to get a kick up the a..e also.

This case is all down to the CYA principle.

[Renegade]

Not in this case, here it is a result of the penchant for everyone suing everyone else at the drop of a hat and the attendant insurance stipulations that arise from that.  She's working on Council property, she has to abide by their OHS rules.

If she was working in that flowerbed and a car flattened her, the council is responsible and it's their a..e they're covering.

It would have been different if she had just been sitting on a bench there but she was working - free or not, it doesn't matter.

The same applies here in Australia under OHS, that's why all the police, council workers and any public/private employees wear hi-vis gear when they're out working on public land/roads because if they're not and the WorkSafe people see them, they will be fined for unsafe work practices and their employer is likely to get a kick up the a..e also.

This case is all down to the CYA principle.

-4wd (April 03, 2012, 07:00 AM)

Meh... Not so sure I buy it.

But then again, I have a this bizarre belief in personal responsibility, which really isn't compatible with "sue everyone for everything", which seems to be the dominant logic today.

As for Australia... yeah... Not exactly a shining paradigm of sanity either. 

Mind you, it's not Canada where if you're a cop, see some dude in a hospital gown that's all disoriented and confused with a pair of scissors in his hands, then for your own safety, you shoot him a few times to make sure he's dead... Yeah. That's reasonable. Can't endanger your own safety against a patient... We all have to be SAFE. SAFETY comes from government. Safety is good. Trust your government to make you safe.

Yeah... I still don't buy it. Personal responsibility has to come into play at some point.

If you're such a crappy driver that you run over a flower bed in a meridian and kill someone, well... You deserve what's coming to you. It's not the city's fault and it's not the fault of the little old lady doing some gardening. It's the fault of the idiot that ran her over. This stuff isn't rocket science.

It's a tiny little town. It's not a busy highway in the middle of London. Can't we use common sense anymore? Are we so caught up in "the rules"?

[Carol Haynes]

UK Government now retreating rapidly in face of public opposition (I think it took them by surprise).

Of course their response is:

"No, No, No, you got it all wrong. We want to protect your privacy."

Now we wait to see how they spin it to get their own way.

See: http://www.bbc.co.uk...uk-politics-17595209

for the latest update!

[4wd]

But then again, I have a this bizarre belief in personal responsibility, which really isn't compatible with "sue everyone for everything", which seems to be the dominant logic today.

-Renegade (April 03, 2012, 10:15 AM)

I agree with you %100 on this, [insert deity] knows the planet would be better off with less lawyers and the need to constantly double and triple-think everything you do just in case you end up in court.

Personal responsibility has to come into play at some point.

Cancelled due to lack of interest and greed.

Can't we use common sense anymore?

If everyone had common sense then there'd be no need for governments....oops, think I just made a watchlist somewhere