The Foreclosure Scam

[wraith808]

They're too easy to use, too indiscriminate, and take away lot of the personal investment in the violence that you're intending to inflict.

-wraith808 (August 17, 2011, 12:31 PM)

  I did not know you were supposed to savor these moments...

-Stoic Joker (August 17, 2011, 01:07 PM)

Personal investment =/= savor.  Personal investment as in "I'm about to potentially take a life."  If you have to have the visceral experience of actually using muscle power to force an item through flesh from close range where you can experience it with all of your senses, versus the simple act of pulling a trigger, the impact of what you have done is going to be much greater.  The same thing goes into causing harm personally vs. ordering others to inflict it.  You aren't as personally involved.  That's why we sanitize our speech when referring to such acts- to remove ourselves even further from the mental impact of the action, i.e. Collateral Damage < Civilian Casualties < We dropped a bomb on a family < We dropped a bomb on Mr & Mrs Adham and Little Faisal.

[Stoic Joker]

They're too easy to use, too indiscriminate, and take away lot of the personal investment in the violence that you're intending to inflict.

-wraith808 (August 17, 2011, 12:31 PM)

  I did not know you were supposed to savor these moments...

-Stoic Joker (August 17, 2011, 01:07 PM)

Personal investment =/= savor.  Personal investment as in "I'm about to potentially take a life."  If you have to have the visceral experience of actually using muscle power to force an item through flesh from close range where you can experience it with all of your senses, versus the simple act of pulling a trigger, the impact of what you have done is going to be much greater.  The same thing goes into causing harm personally vs. ordering others to inflict it.  You aren't as personally involved.  That's why we sanitize our speech when referring to such acts- to remove ourselves even further from the mental impact of the action, i.e. Collateral Damage < Civilian Casualties < We dropped a bomb on a family < We dropped a bomb on Mr & Mrs Adham and Little Faisal.

-wraith808 (August 17, 2011, 01:30 PM)

I knew what you meant, I was just being difficult (couldn't resist).

As a rule I dislike violence, IRL I am soft spoken, and my manner is quite calm and indeed stoic. I just happen to allow for the fact that occasionally survival necessitates a harsh response to perilous situations.

[zridling]

But seriously - where are you people living? I've never been in a situation where I thought a gun would help me. And I cant imagine having one being of any help in the future. YMMV, and maybe the violence where you live is more arbitrary. I can see shooting guns is a fun pastime, and that they are nice "things" to mess around with, but this is something different - or is it?

-tomos (August 17, 2011, 07:26 AM)

Again, you guys make fun, but I strongly urge you to go sit in a courtroom for an entire trial where someone's been shot or killed. Everything you say or do CAN and WILL be USED AGAINST YOU. The reason that's in the Miranda rights is because it's the way the system works. Most prosecutors are short-term guys looking to move up the political scale -- and they do that by clearing the docket with as many convictions and plea bargains as possible. You say self-defense, but check your local newspaper archives on how many people in the past 20 years in your area have used a gun in their house to defend themselves against attack. You'll be surprised.

Like tomos, I got nothing against guns, self-defense, sport shooting, hunting, etc. But talking like the Terminator is just talk until you're hauled before a jury and made to look like a murderer by the prosecutor. Never think the "law" is on your side. That's a rookie mistake. Even if you win, you'll likely have lost your job, all your money to your legal defense, and 1-5 years of your life walking up and down courthouse steps defending your actions.

[wraith808]

I've sat through such hearings, and I never do think the law is on my side.  I've made that mistake before (thankfully only in civil court).  And I've personally seen someone who had no choice and who had nothing to do with pulling the trigger railroaded because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the wrong person carjacked him.  But this isn't "terminator" talk, at least in my case.  It's the talk of someone who'd rather avoid those situations, but knows all too well that in that split second when it's them or you, it had better be you, especially if someone who doesn't have the same respect for life is involved.

[Stoic Joker]

I've sat through such hearings, and I never do think the law is on my side.  I've made that mistake before (thankfully only in civil court).  And I've personally seen someone who had no choice and who had nothing to do with pulling the trigger railroaded because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and the wrong person carjacked him.  But this isn't "terminator" talk, at least in my case.  It's the talk of someone who'd rather avoid those situations, but knows all too well that in that split second when it's them or you, it had better be you, especially if someone who doesn't have the same respect for life is involved.

-wraith808 (August 17, 2011, 05:31 PM)

+1 Been there also. And you're spot on about the split second part, choices are react or die when it really hits the fan because warnings just don't happen unless you really know what to look for ... and that ain't perfect either. I've left more than a few places (back-in-the-day) because I could tell shit was about to go sideways. I've also had a few less timely exits that required (Um...) non-verbal negotiations...

Good point about the political aspect by zridling as it is a major factor in how things tend to go down. I got a friend doing 10 for a gun he didn't even have. But hick towns just love bank robbery trials. The law is on your side alright, Your Back-Side...

Now as far as self defense shootings go locally. The ones that are reasonably clear-cut (robberies/home invasions) never go to trial...or have any charges filed for that matter.

A few years back a guy in a wheelchair caught someone trying to break down his front door. He fired 3 times through the door killing the would be attacker. After a short (2 week) investigation, it was ruled self defense.

Another one south of here was a guy that walked out of the bathroom at a restaurant, and straight into a robbery. He (having both gun and permit) drew, fired, and ended the robbery. It was ruled self defense shortly there after.

[wraith808]

Good point about the political aspect by zridling as it is a major factor in how things tend to go down. I got a friend doing 10 for a gun he didn't even have. But hick towns just love bank robbery trials. The law is on your side alright, Your Back-Side...

-Stoic Joker (August 17, 2011, 06:11 PM)

Another thing to remember is that the truth won't set you free.  And not only is the prosecutor out to get you, your defense attorney doesn't care as much about you as they would have you think.  In the end, facing a judge is a lot like facing death.  Everyone does it alone.