A Point About Grammar

[app103]

On SBS World News here, we sometimes get stories with subtitles for interviews with people in Africa - who are speaking understandable English.  They might then have a news story from somewhere in the UK where, because it's Scotland, Yorkshire, etc, you have to wonder wtf they saying even though it's meant to be English

-4wd (February 10, 2014, 06:44 PM)

I have relatives that make Facebook posts that seem like that, loaded with misspellings and bad grammar, completely void of any punctuation and capitalization. I often wish that the "Translate this post" option would show up underneath. 

The other day, when someone mentioned it to one of my relatives, remarking that it was the longest "sentence" that he had ever seen, begging for some punctuation, the relative replied "Really [redacted] u run a train all night an ur telling me i have to put dot in there so u no when to take some air in come on ur smarter then that lol ok if i have to tell u take some air now read U just want me to say ur smart again stop take some more air lmao just joshing u"

I'd also like to point out that I am a high school dropout...and she is a college grad.

[TaoPhoenix]

Am I the only one that's annoyed by the seemingly decreasing quality of language in "professional" news, articles and general writing?

I really don't care about people making mistakes in forums or informal writing. A lot of people don't speak English as their first language, and that's not a problem. What I find annoying is "professional" media that simply don't know how to use English properly.

e.g.
* Statistical "outlyers". It's "outliers". Sigh...
* "mass nouns" -- They're called "countable" and "uncountable", not "mass".
* Verb agreement

The list goes on and on.

It's just jarring to get "hit" by grammar, spelling, and word choice mistakes that there really is no excuse for.

It's one thing for it to be "the odd time", but it's not. It's all the time.

Am I just super-anal? Is poor grammar really acceptable in professional media?

-Renegade (March 01, 2011, 08:43 PM)

-crabby3 (February 10, 2014, 08:26 AM)

Naw, you're not going crazy Ren. "Professional" media took a hit with the rise of Bloggers and the Web mauling their cash cows of comics and classifieds and a few other things that *also* helped pay for a Few Good Men.

"Professional" blogs are really feeling the heat to "post or perish", and that's where for me the worst mistakes are seen to be made.

[TaoPhoenix]

Gosh, then the language has become rather like a local dialect. Mind you, American-English is arguably a dialect of received English anyway.

-IainB (February 10, 2014, 05:26 PM)

Actually to amuse you, I would like to suggest half seriously that "dialect" is a "space time" phenomenon! I am a partial "style empath" depending on what I am reading as a Project. (Not just a misc wiki entry, but when I really get into a Project of the Month.)

This Month the project is a writer called O. Henry. Y'all may have heard of him, but except for the five or so staple classics that always show up in English Class textbooks, I bet you haven't seen his real flair for a really "Heavy Narrator" and fondness for "Parallel Sentences" and such. He also so mastered his style that when he passed away, no one had the heart to try to best him at it for decades.

Nowadays the Heavy Narrator is frowned upon, though I've noticed Tom Clancy at it.

Let's try an example, modified (badly!) for the times:

Mouser was displeased. A man of less culture and poise but more wealth would have sworn out of arrogance. However, Mouser was more cultured, more poised, and less wealthy, and "Two out of Three Ain't Bad" is true, except the first two are MeatLoaf and meatloaf, making poor Mouser the third, and he was in a bad way.

His Thesis wasn't going well. All Genius is bestowed upon us by Karma Angels, but poor Mouser's Karma could not quite afford the highest grade Genius. He received just enough to become tantalized by the Higher Orders, but not yet to solve them. So while taking some time to ponder, an image of a little white bird crossed his luminescent mind.

So Mouser strapped some code to his hard drive, ordered a pizza, and set out to make his or somebody else's fortune with a software site designed upon begging with onion tears asking for donations. Thus TearyEyedProgrammer DonationCoder was born.

[IainB]

...They might then have a news story from somewhere in the UK where, because it's Scotland, Yorkshire, etc, you have to wonder wtf they saying even though it's meant to be English.

-4wd (February 10, 2014, 06:44 PM)

Speaking as a Yorkshireman, I think you will find that Yorkshire-English is recognised as being an example of having a sort of English dialect, though I am unsure as to how many people actually use the dialect - e.g., "Put wood i'th 'ole." meaning "Put the wood in the hole" (i.e., "Close the door").

Most of the time, what you hear in the news is probably just English spoken with a strong Yorkshire (or, in the case of Scotland, Scottish) accent.
Another example of a dialect could be Cockney rhyming slang (from London).
There was a time when all radio and TV presenters and announcers on the BBC radio/TV were trained to speak a standardised and clear form of English based on "received English", and it gave rise to what became commonly known as "BBC Midlands English", but the new mantra has become "diversity", so now it seems that anything goes, no matter how incomprehensible, and the the thicker the better. I must admit I think some of the regional accents are very interesting and easy on the ear, but it doesn't surprise me if people sometimes say that they can't understand what is being said.
If you listen to BBC Cymru (Wales) you will hear spoken not English, but an entirely different language - Welsh - which is incomprehensible to those who have never learned to speak Welsh, though it has adopted many modern English words, but puts its own slant/emphasis on them.

[tomos]

On SBS World News here, we sometimes get stories with subtitles for interviews with people in Africa - who are speaking understandable English.  They might then have a news story from somewhere in the UK where, because it's Scotland, Yorkshire, etc, you have to wonder wtf they saying even though it's meant to be English

-4wd (February 10, 2014, 06:44 PM)

Gosh, then the language has become rather like a local dialect. Mind you, American-English is arguably a dialect of received English anyway.

-IainB (February 10, 2014, 05:26 PM)

-
which 'English' was, in turn, a dialect of English which got favoured for use as 'proper' English (London English, I think).
Ironically many of the quirks of American-English (for English speakers from East of the Atlantic) were words and pronunciations that stayed the same -- while English in England changed and evolved. Of course it happened the other way too. (This happens to a lesser extent with Irish-English - more with word pronunciations.)

In Maine the accent is reminiscent of a Yorkshire accent (I found). In Eastern Canada and Newfoundland you can hear accents distinctly derived from *local* Irish accents -- this from people who have lived there for generations.


Edit// Iain, I had missed your post above. Yeah, 'BBC English' was a part of that too.

[crabby3]

How many different waters do you see in this photo?
 (see attachment in previous post)

-app103 (March 04, 2011, 07:33 PM)

Two?   

[Stoic Joker]

Don't know where you are.  I'm in 'the South of Florida'.  Not The South or The Deep South.  That begins to end up around the border.
Back when the History and Discovery channels had less *reality* crap they had shows referring to The South.  Never mentioned Florida.
It was always Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Carolinas ..

-crabby3 (February 10, 2014, 04:55 PM)

I'm in the middle of central Florida. And while "The South" might officially end at the border...straying more than a mile or so off the interstate around here will bring one up to speed real fast about how far south The South really goes. We're talking Rebel flags, Confederate money, a 5th grade education, and 3 teeth per family - that's extended on both sides (assuming there are actually 2 sides...) mind you.

There are places in the national forest here that the cops won't go into with less than 3 vehicles in a caravan.

-Stoic Joker (February 10, 2014, 05:19 PM)

This is above Orlando? 

-crabby3 (February 10, 2014, 05:37 PM)

Yes, ~80 miles north.

We have Rebels, counterfeit money, many GED's and no teeth per.

We have the Everglades but the cops don't bother chasing.  There's only a few places with semi-potable water any time of year.
If the perps are driving... there's only one western exit... with cops waiting.  Most turn around and face the music.

-crabby3 (February 10, 2014, 05:37 PM)

(hehe) now you're getting it. Florida being a transient state (e.g. most residents are from somewhere else) likes to pretend they're above all that Mason Dixon line shit ... But they're not. We're just as much The South (as the true locals quickly show) as the rest of the (classically held as) Southern states.

Mind you I'm not sayin' that it's good or bad ... I'm simply pointing out that it is.


@IainB - I was actually trying really hard not to use the word 'dialect' ...(as it tends to upset the locals)... But yes it does rather fit.

How many different waters do you see in this photo?
 (see attachment in previous post)

-app103 (March 04, 2011, 07:33 PM)

Two?   

-crabby3 (February 11, 2014, 05:38 AM)

Agreed. Two waters strikes me as correct also.

[IainB]

How many different waters do you see in this photo?
 (see attachment in previous post)
_____________________________

-app103 (March 04, 2011, 07:33 PM)

Two?  
_____________________________

-crabby3 (February 11, 2014, 05:38 AM)

Agreed. Two waters strikes me as correct also.
_____________________________

-Stoic Joker (February 11, 2014, 07:10 AM)

I'm not sure there is necessarily a "correct" answer here. The answer would probably differ depending on how you defined "waters":

From Concise Oxford Dictionary (10th Ed.)
water
· n.
1 the liquid which forms the seas, lakes, rivers, and rain and is the basis of the fluids of living organisms. [Chemical formula: H2O.] Ø one of the four elements in ancient and medieval philosophy and in astrology. Ø (the waters) the water of a mineral spring as used medicinally. Ø a solution of a specified substance in water: ammonia water. Ø urine. Ø (waters) amniotic fluid, especially as discharged shortly before birth.
2 (the water) a stretch of water, such as a river, sea, or lake. Ø the surface of this. Ø [as modifier] found in, on, or near the water. Ø (waters) an area of sea regarded as under the jurisdiction of a particular country.
3 the quality of transparency and brilliance shown by a diamond or other gem.
4 Finance capital stock which represents a book value greater than the true assets of a company.
· v.
1 pour water over (a plant or an area of ground). Ø give a drink of water to (an animal). Ø take a fresh supply of water on board (a ship or steam train).
2 (of the eyes or mouth) produce tears or saliva.
3 dilute (a drink, typically an alcoholic one) with water. Ø (water something down) make something less forceful or controversial by changing or leaving out certain details.
4 (of a river) flow through (an area).
5 Finance increase (a company’s debt, or nominal capital) by the issue of new shares without a corresponding addition to assets.
– PHRASES like water in great quantities. make water (of a ship or boat) take in water through a leak. of the first water 1 (of a diamond or pearl) of the greatest brilliance and transparency. 2 referring to a person or thing unsurpassed of their kind: she was a bore of the first water. under water submerged; flooded. the water of life whisky. water on the brain informal hydrocephalus. water under the bridge (or N. Amer. water over the dam) past events that are over and done with.
– DERIVATIVES waterer n. waterless adj.
– ORIGIN OE wæter (n.), wæterian (v.), of Gmc origin.

[Stoic Joker]

I was actually just going with liquid and solid (ice at bottom of photo) for a total of 2.

I did not however see any lakes in the photo.

[IainB]

I was actually just going with liquid and solid (ice at bottom of photo) for a total of 2.
I did not however see any lakes in the photo.

-Stoic Joker (February 11, 2014, 03:33 PM)

OK, as I recall from my fisics edukation, any substance (such as water) that can go from vapour<-->liquid<-->solid at different temps/pressures is said to be going through "phases". So water in liquid and ice form would be examples of two phases of water, by definition.

Presumably, all bottled water is for drinking, so you could call this "bottled potable water". Some bottled water might come from mineral springs with dissolved minerals, and these can be called "waters" per the above Concise Oxford Dictionary definition (and also as mentioned here in DCF), and some bottled water might be distilled water (pure H20 condensate from a distillation process). You could call these "different types" of water.
The plastic bottled water reputedly could contain BPn compounds from the plastic manufacturing process, so you might call these potentially "contaminated" or "polluted" types of potable water. Water is a universal solvent, and thus not all water is potable as it could contain all manner of harmful-to-health dissolved chemicals. Water also can contain bacteria that is dangerous to human health and this would usually not be potable either. All water on the planet is recycled water.

Then there's tap water. Oddly enough, this is the water that has been shown to be the safest to bottle and drink in urbanised societies, from a human health standpoint, because it has been mucked about with quite a lot before it runs out of the tap. It is water that has been filtered using various filters including insoluble aluminium compounds to flock/trap particulates in suspension, and then contaminated (treated) with a small amount of dissolved toxic/poisonous gas - chlorine - to sterilise the water. Some urban water also has an added toxin - stannous fluoride (a compound of the metal tin) which scientists tell us is good for our teeth by helping to reduce the incidence of decay.

The most beneficial potable water from a human health standpoint would be water containing lots of useful (to the human organism) dissolved minerals (so, for example, dissolved toxic lead minerals would make it not potable, by definition), and the least beneficial would be pure distilled water.

Some people reckon that the nicest-tasting water is that used to water down a glass of whisky, whereas others say that it spoils the taste of the whisky.

Water is the cause of the greatest solvent abuse and addiction on the planet, and causes many deaths. People can't seem to live without having to imbibe large amounts of it every day, and inhaling the stuff can be fatal.