A Point About Grammar

[app103]

On that topic though, one uncountable noun that has crept into being a countable noun that I find somewhat irritating is "beers". It's like "waters". It contracts "X bottles of beer" or "X glasses of beer" into "beers". It just seems like a sloppy bastardization to me.

-Renegade (March 02, 2011, 06:26 PM)

So does that mean you'd be against me buying you a beer?

-app103 (March 03, 2011, 06:12 AM)

Oddly, that seems perfectly natural. The plural contraction doesn't. So sure, you can buy me a beer anytime~!

-Renegade (March 03, 2011, 06:53 AM)

Just seems a shame that you can have a beer but not a few beers.  Doesn't sound like as much fun. 

[Renegade]

In my Korean language classes some years ago, a fellow student was a professor of Linguistics. We had a very interesting conversation one time when he explained why you can have "un-fucking-believable" but not "unbelieva-fucking-ble" or "unbe-fucking-lievable" (and other similar cases of injecting profanity into words). I forget the exact reasons at the moment, but it had to do with intonation and stress. Those are some strange rules that we all know and use, but aren't really conscious of them, and never had a class where they were taught.

Just seems a shame that you can have a beer but not a few beers.  Doesn't sound like as much fun.

Yes. Very true.

I'd like to know why a non-countable noun can become a singular countable noun, but not a plural countable noun. I think it has to do with them being assumed contractions of the form "# units of noun" to "a noun" or "nouns".

e.g.

I'd like a water.

But not:

I'd like some waters.

[cranioscopical]

Perhaps not entirely off topic (for a change)

To the many of you who have sent me personal messages enquiring with such concern as to why I am so dopey a (and here I'll paraphrase — there are simply too few asterisks available on my keyboard) fellow. This could be the answer:

Research by the British National Formulary (BNF), which advises doctors, nurses and pharmacists, found labelling that has been around for decades is now too difficult for members of the public to understand.

It found phrases such as "may cause drowsiness" are no longer "readily understood" and should now be simplified to say "this medicine may make you sleepy".

and, just to add further clarity

Likewise, the phrases "avoid alcoholic drink" and "take at regular intervals" caused indecision among modern takers.

The report recommends the labels should now read "do not drink alcohol while taking this medicine" and "space the doses evenly throughout the day".

For those of you who feel that this does not explain my mental state fully, I offer the following:

Drinking a glass of wine a day or a pint of beer can cut the chance of developing dementia by almost a third, according to researchers.

So, in future, I'll go for a few bottles of each beverage. That should fix it!

[Ath]

So, in future, I'll go for a few bottles of each beverage. That should fix it!

-cranioscopical (March 04, 2011, 01:58 PM)

[Stoic Joker]

So, in future, I'll go for a few bottles of each beverage. That should fix it!

-cranioscopical (March 04, 2011, 01:58 PM)

-Ath (March 04, 2011, 02:04 PM)

Damn Straight! I'll sign-up for the Save-the-Marbles Drinking Competition (Er...) "Therapy" too!

[40hz]

Save-the-Jewels erm..Marbles Therapy, huh?

Ok...I'll give it a try. Can't be to careful when it comes to issues of health.

However, I'll pass on the Martinis if you don't mind.

Make mine Stout, Bock (hey, ya gotta eat too!), or a nice microbrewed Dark Ale.

As long as it's dark and complex - and looks like there's a good chance some "pond life" lurking in it -  I'm in!

[cranioscopical]

a good chance some "pond life" lurking in it

-40hz (March 04, 2011, 02:51 PM)

Good and newtricious!

[Renegade]

Perhaps not entirely off topic (for a change)

To the many of you who have sent me personal messages enquiring with such concern as to why I am so dopey a (and here I'll paraphrase — there are simply too few asterisks available on my keyboard) fellow. This could be the answer:

Research by the British National Formulary (BNF), which advises doctors, nurses and pharmacists, found labelling that has been around for decades is now too difficult for members of the public to understand.

It found phrases such as "may cause drowsiness" are no longer "readily understood" and should now be simplified to say "this medicine may make you sleepy".

and, just to add further clarity

Likewise, the phrases "avoid alcoholic drink" and "take at regular intervals" caused indecision among modern takers.

The report recommends the labels should now read "do not drink alcohol while taking this medicine" and "space the doses evenly throughout the day".

For those of you who feel that this does not explain my mental state fully, I offer the following:

Drinking a glass of wine a day or a pint of beer can cut the chance of developing dementia by almost a third, according to researchers.

So, in future, I'll go for a few bottles of each beverage. That should fix it!

-cranioscopical (March 04, 2011, 01:58 PM)

It's sad that so many people are basically illiterate and perfectly clear instructions need to be dumbed down that much.

[Stoic Joker]

You can bet your ass there is a lawyer behind it. Because (in reality) nobody is really that dumb ... But if the obvious can be muddied a bit in court...

Anybody dense enough to actually be confused by those instructions, would probably best serve the human race as a Darwin Award recipient.

[Renegade]

You can bet your ass there is a lawyer behind it. Because (in reality) nobody is really that dumb ... But if the obvious can be muddied a bit in court...

Anybody dense enough to actually be confused by those instructions, would probably best serve the human race as a Darwin Award recipient.

-Stoic Joker (March 04, 2011, 05:09 PM)

+1 and +1

[Renegade]

Because (in reality) nobody is really that dumb ...

-Stoic Joker (March 04, 2011, 05:09 PM)

And -1. I think that there really are people that are that stupid.

Evidence? Sure~!

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church[/url]^w

They provoked Anonymous:

http://www.bbc.co.uk.../technology-12523184

And now their website is offline:

www . godhatesfags . com

(Not giving them any link juice.)

But seriously... There's no end to just how surprisingly stupid some people can be. The only truly sad thing is that there are other idiots out there trying to keep them in the gene pool~!

[Stoic Joker]

But seriously... There's no end to just how surprisingly stupid some people can be. The only truly sad thing is that there are other idiots out there trying to keep them in the gene pool~!

-Renegade (March 04, 2011, 05:18 PM)

That's why I tossed in the second part as a qualifier...

I saw the real-time hack that Anonymous did during the WBC interview and almost pissed myself laughing ... That was truly a beautiful thing to watch (hatred fall down go boom (hehehe)).

[Renegade]

But seriously... There's no end to just how surprisingly stupid some people can be. The only truly sad thing is that there are other idiots out there trying to keep them in the gene pool~!

-Renegade (March 04, 2011, 05:18 PM)

That's why I tossed in the second part as a qualifier...

I saw the real-time hack that Anonymous did during the WBC interview and almost pissed myself laughing ... That was truly a beautiful thing to watch (hatred fall down go boom (hehehe)).

-Stoic Joker (March 04, 2011, 06:16 PM)

I didn't see that. Do you have a link for a video of it? I'd love to see that~!

[app103]

I'd like to know why a non-countable noun can become a singular countable noun, but not a plural countable noun. I think it has to do with them being assumed contractions of the form "# units of noun" to "a noun" or "nouns".

-Renegade (March 04, 2011, 07:13 AM)

You can have a can of beer.
You can have a bottle of beer.
You can have a glass of beer.

You can have a few cans of beer.
You can have a few bottles of beer.
You can have a few glasses of beer.

What you are actually having is cans, bottles, or glasses.....of beer.

Without specifying whether it is in a can, bottle or glass...

You can have a beer.
You can have a few beers.

What you are actually having is [units] of beer....aka beers.

e.g.

I'd like a water.

But not:

I'd like some waters.

How many different waters do you see in this photo?

[Renegade]

I'd like to know why a non-countable noun can become a singular countable noun, but not a plural countable noun. I think it has to do with them being assumed contractions of the form "# units of noun" to "a noun" or "nouns".

-Renegade (March 04, 2011, 07:13 AM)

You can have a can of beer.
You can have a bottle of beer.
You can have a glass of beer.

You can have a few cans of beer.
You can have a few bottles of beer.
You can have a few glasses of beer.

What you are actually having is cans, bottles, or glasses.....of beer.

Without specifying whether it is in a can, bottle or glass...

You can have a beer.
You can have a few beers.

What you are actually having is [units] of beer....aka beers.

e.g.

I'd like a water.

But not:

I'd like some waters.

How many different waters do you see in this photo?
 (see attachment in previous post)

-app103 (March 04, 2011, 07:33 PM)

That's "what it is", but not why. I'm curious as to how contractions by deletion of units (and the like) works. I'm not a linguist, so I can't really speculate.





@Stoic Joker -- Found it -- http://www.youtube.c.../watch?v=OZJwSjor4hM

I just hated listening to her. She's just painful to listen to. The video would have been much better with her edited out entirely.

[housetier]

There is a weblog about grammar as well: Throw Grammar from the Train

I have only glimpsed at a post about National Grammar Day.

It shows that we are not alone with our concerns about grammar

[crabby3]

Am I the only one that's annoyed by the seemingly decreasing quality of language in "professional" news, articles and general writing?

I really don't care about people making mistakes in forums or informal writing. A lot of people don't speak English as their first language, and that's not a problem. What I find annoying is "professional" media that simply don't know how to use English properly.

e.g.
* Statistical "outlyers". It's "outliers". Sigh...
* "mass nouns" -- They're called "countable" and "uncountable", not "mass".
* Verb agreement

The list goes on and on.

It's just jarring to get "hit" by grammar, spelling, and word choice mistakes that there really is no excuse for.

It's one thing for it to be "the odd time", but it's not. It's all the time.

Am I just super-anal? Is poor grammar really acceptable in professional media?

-Renegade (March 01, 2011, 08:43 PM)

can't here/scan no pro info, yokel stuffs way 2 boaring to. 

[Stoic Joker]

Am I the only one that's annoyed by the seemingly decreasing quality of language in "professional" news, articles and general writing?

I really don't care about people making mistakes in forums or informal writing. A lot of people don't speak English as their first language, and that's not a problem. What I find annoying is "professional" media that simply don't know how to use English properly.

e.g.
* Statistical "outlyers". It's "outliers". Sigh...
* "mass nouns" -- They're called "countable" and "uncountable", not "mass".
* Verb agreement

The list goes on and on.

It's just jarring to get "hit" by grammar, spelling, and word choice mistakes that there really is no excuse for.

It's one thing for it to be "the odd time", but it's not. It's all the time.

Am I just super-anal? Is poor grammar really acceptable in professional media?

-Renegade (March 01, 2011, 08:43 PM)

can't here/scan no pro info, yokel stuffs way 2 boaring to. 

-crabby3 (February 10, 2014, 08:26 AM)

Yokels?! Hell man we're in "The South" grammar is so far gone here "the yokels" get close captioned on the history/discovery channel. God knows why the hell these people are considered fun to watch (much like a train wreck I guess). Jesus Christ man, when people have to be close captioned (e.g. translated for) on the local news because their enunciation is really that bad...there is a serious problem ... And I don't think it in the water either. 

[IainB]

...Hell man we're in "The South" grammar is so far gone here "the yokels" get close captioned on the history/discovery channel...

-Stoic Joker (February 10, 2014, 11:49 AM)

If that were true, then I would suggest that the captions might be for the hard of hearing.
If it were not true, then it's a very droll remark.

[crabby3]

can't here/scan no pro info, yokel stuffs way 2 boaring to. 

-crabby3 (February 10, 2014, 08:26 AM)

Yokels?! Hell man we're in "The South" grammar is so far gone here "the yokels" get close captioned on the history/discovery channel. God knows why the hell these people are considered fun to watch (much like a train wreck I guess). Jesus Christ man, when people have to be close captioned (e.g. translated for) on the local news because their enunciation is really that bad...there is a serious problem ... And I don't think it in the water either. 

-Stoic Joker (February 10, 2014, 11:49 AM)

Don't know where you are.  I'm in 'the South of Florida'.  Not The South or The Deep South.  That begins to end up around the border.
Back when the History and Discovery channels had less *reality* crap they had shows referring to The South.  Never mentioned Florida.
It was always Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Carolinas ..

Florida seems to be like a giant gravity water filter.  Don't know about Tampa but as you pass Mickey... most of 'The South' was been trapped.
Some make it down as far as the lake but the All-You-Can-Eat catfish places usually grab those.

...Hell man we're in "The South" grammar is so far gone here "the yokels" get close captioned on the history/discovery channel...

-Stoic Joker (February 10, 2014, 11:49 AM)

If that were true, then I would suggest that the captions might be for the hard of hearing.

-IainB (February 10, 2014, 01:28 PM)

When Closed-Captioned first started, down here, a voice would say: This program is Closed-Captioned for the hearing-impaired.  Of course this was stupid.
Soon they switched to verbage only.  Much, much better.  These days it's just cc in a box.

can't here/scan no pro info, yokel stuffs way 2 boaring to.

-crabby3 (February 10, 2014, 08:26 AM)

 ... hard making this joke ..

[Stoic Joker]

...Hell man we're in "The South" grammar is so far gone here "the yokels" get close captioned on the history/discovery channel...

-Stoic Joker (February 10, 2014, 11:49 AM)

If that were true, then I would suggest that the captions might be for the hard of hearing.
If it were not true, then it's a very droll remark.

-IainB (February 10, 2014, 01:28 PM)

The accents really are that bad. They can be heard just fine...but they must be translated for those unfamiliar with the tendency to jumble an entire sentence into a single (somewhat long) "word".

[Stoic Joker]

Don't know where you are.  I'm in 'the South of Florida'.  Not The South or The Deep South.  That begins to end up around the border.
Back when the History and Discovery channels had less *reality* crap they had shows referring to The South.  Never mentioned Florida.
It was always Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Carolinas ..

-crabby3 (February 10, 2014, 04:55 PM)

I'm in the middle of central Florida. And while "The South" might officially end at the border...straying more than a mile or so off the interstate around here will bring one up to speed real fast about how far south The South really goes. We're talking Rebel flags, Confederate money, a 5th grade education, and 3 teeth per family - that's extended on both sides (assuming there are actually 2 sides...) mind you.

There are places in the national forest here that the cops won't go into with less than 3 vehicles in a caravan.

[IainB]

...The accents really are that bad. They can be heard just fine...but they must be translated for those unfamiliar with the tendency to jumble an entire sentence into a single (somewhat long) "word"...

-Stoic Joker (February 10, 2014, 05:11 PM)

Gosh, then the language has become rather like a local dialect. Mind you, American-English is arguably a dialect of received English anyway.

[crabby3]

Don't know where you are.  I'm in 'the South of Florida'.  Not The South or The Deep South.  That begins to end up around the border.
Back when the History and Discovery channels had less *reality* crap they had shows referring to The South.  Never mentioned Florida.
It was always Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Carolinas ..

-crabby3 (February 10, 2014, 04:55 PM)

I'm in the middle of central Florida. And while "The South" might officially end at the border...straying more than a mile or so off the interstate around here will bring one up to speed real fast about how far south The South really goes. We're talking Rebel flags, Confederate money, a 5th grade education, and 3 teeth per family - that's extended on both sides (assuming there are actually 2 sides...) mind you.

There are places in the national forest here that the cops won't go into with less than 3 vehicles in a caravan.

-Stoic Joker (February 10, 2014, 05:19 PM)

This is above Orlando?  We have Rebels, counterfeit money, many GED's and no teeth per.

We have the Everglades but the cops don't bother chasing.  There's only a few places with semi-potable water any time of year.
If the perps are driving... there's only one western exit... with cops waiting.  Most turn around and face the music.

[4wd]

On SBS World News here, we sometimes get stories with subtitles for interviews with people in Africa - who are speaking understandable English.  They might then have a news story from somewhere in the UK where, because it's Scotland, Yorkshire, etc, you have to wonder wtf they saying even though it's meant to be English