Windows vs. Mac: I'm starting to change.

[Innuendo]

I'm my parents' go-to guy for computer and tech support. I'm a confirmed Windows guy and yet my parents insist on running a Mac. I've been repeating the above advice to them like a mantra for years. Falls on deaf ears!

-Darwin (November 07, 2009, 12:11 PM)

Next time they have a problem feign ignorance & tell them they'll have to take it to a shop & pay to have it fixed. Quickly add that if they had a Windows PC you'd be able to fix the problem with no cash outlay.

[tomos]

I'm a confirmed Windows guy and yet my parents insist on running a Mac

-Darwin (November 07, 2009, 12:11 PM)

were they influenced by the advertising or what ('hip' parents?)

[DFrench]

hmm  this thread will never end 

but, as a 'old boy' wich started his computer life on a spectrum zx1, c64, atari, amiga to dos 3.11 till windows 7 now... there is just one thing you have to learn with microsoft - MAKE FROM YOUR RUNNING SYSTEM A BACKUP and put all your important data on a second hd, dvd and/or nas.
try new software not at home, go with a usb-stick to a friend, maybe not to your best one *LOL*, and try it there or go in a internet cafe... or try it on a virtual pc - and you have no problems at all!
ohh, and of course... don't forget to save your registry... at least once a day...
and if you deinstall a programm... see in the drawer 'common files' to... and in the appdata drawer under local and... and clean the registry at least twice...
did i say that you should make a backup before you deinstall a programm?
hmm... is there anything else or did i forgot something?
oh yea, as i'm swiss-german (Grüezi zäme!), my english is not ferry goot, sorrz

have a nice day!

[Innuendo]

ohh, and of course... don't forget to save your registry... at least once a day...
and if you deinstall a programm... see in the drawer 'common files' to... and in the appdata drawer under local and... and clean the registry at least twice...
did i say that you should make a backup before you deinstall a programm?

-DFrench (November 07, 2009, 05:12 PM)

Gosh, I've been using Windows since Windows 3.1 and I've never had to do any of that stuff to keep my Windows running smoothly. I have to wonder what kind of programs you install.

[Josh]

I've never once had to backup my registry, minus individual keys for program settings that I want saved before I format. I too wonder what types of programs you are installing that cause such a hassle upon uninstall.

[DFrench]

I've never once had to backup my registry, minus individual keys for program settings that I want saved before I format. I too wonder what types of programs you are installing that cause such a hassle upon uninstall.

-Josh (November 07, 2009, 08:17 PM)

hmm, it was a joke - maybe you can hear the bells now...

and, if you had never a problem with the registry... good for you. as such a windows pro you should know that a) microsoft never tells everything about windows... b) the 'real secrets' are in the registry... c) that just a little error or fault entry in the registry and windows don't even boot!
what can 'destroy' the registry? as i life in greece - the land of the powercuts - and that's enough. even before i was 'backing up' my pc's - i organized a ups!
and that's just one of tousend possiblilities to 'destroy' the registry.

[Innuendo]

hmm, it was a joke - maybe you can hear the bells now...

-DFrench (November 08, 2009, 02:36 AM)

The joke probably didn't translate to English well. No worries...

and, if you had never a problem with the registry... good for you. as such a windows pro you should know that a) microsoft never tells everything about windows... b) the 'real secrets' are in the registry... c) that just a little error or fault entry in the registry and windows don't even boot!

Yes, that's true, but to be fair every computer operating system ever written has a set of important core files where if one of them gets corrupted that OS will not boot.

And if powercuts are a problem where you live you probably should look into buying an uninterruptible power supply.

[Darwin]

And if powercuts are a problem where you live you probably should look into buying an uninterruptible power supply.

-Innuendo (November 08, 2009, 10:02 AM)

He's got one!

even boot!
what can 'destroy' the registry? as i life in greece - the land of the powercuts - and that's enough. even before i was 'backing up' my pc's - i organized a ups!

-DFrench (November 08, 2009, 02:36 AM)

To comment on DFrench's original post, though, I haven't had single registry issue since I switched from XP to first Vista 32 bit, then Vista 64 bit and finally Windows 7 64 bit... I'm not sure how much of that has to do with the 32 bit to 64 bit switcheroo, though (I made it about 4 months after switching to Vista).

[f0dder]

I can't remember any registry corruption issues since moving from Win9x and FAT32 to NT and NTFS... well, except for a few instances of me writing device drivers with nasty bugs, but those have always been tested on a dedicated system

[DFrench]

on xp, 32 or 64 bit i had never a problem with the registry.
with vista (64 bit) i had 4...
first and that was the best... i installed the prog 'registry system wizard' first on virtual pc, everything fine, also i installed the programm on the 'real' pc. reboot... nothing happens, black screen
second, after installing nero 8 (original dvd), the same, on virtual pc no problem... in the middle of the installation... boing and the pc crashed!
third was a reinstall of newsbin pro, installed the prog, started it the first time, my name and serial number etc... ALT+F4... started the programm again and the pc crashed!
the last was probably my fault... had to install a new device (external blueray player/burner)

but now with windows 7 64 bit i have no problems... but i make at least once a week a backup of the registry.
as one of my pc is working 24h/7days, and a backup from my server (local webserver, xampp) and gfx files are made every night on a nas and a external hd.

[grapeshot]

Earlier in this thread someone said that if Windows is so great, how come those who've switched to OSX aren't switching back.  That's a good point. 

But, I am an example of someone who switched back.  That is, I still have my Mac machine, and it's on, but I only use it occasionally.  I never liked the OS, and found it to be about as much trouble as my XP machine was. 

• It has trouble working with some of my peripherals, it occasionally doesn't want to find an external drive, and locks up a surprising amount, requiring a hard re-boot.
• For me, it wasn't particularly intuitive to learn to use, either.
• I was always running into software limitations.  That is, in the Windows world there is a plethora of software available for any little thing you might want to do, ranging in price from free to expensive (and with commensurate sophistication, support and documentation levels).  In the Mac world there's usually one, two, or maybe three softwares for any given thing you want to do, and rarely is there a free one.
• If your OS version is a couple of years old, you begin to find that new software won't work with it, forcing you to upgrade.  In the Windows world, you can reasonably expect your OS to last you for the better part of a decade.
• I also found that when I did have trouble with my Mac, it was difficult to find a solution on the web.  With the PC, I can almost always find a solution somewhere.
• Once upon a time, many years ago, all I wanted from my computer is that it "just works", without me having to go under the hood -- either in the depths of the OS or inside the case.  However, I've come to rather like becoming self-sufficient in upgrading/fixing/modding my computer and/or its software.  The Mac, on the other hand, wants me to just shut up and look at the pretty window.  Personally, I find that a bit insulting.
  

Sure, a Mac is a cool looking machine, and uses a spiffy looking OS, but like that Coding Horror article, my computer is a tool, not an accessory to my lifestyle.  I recognize that not everyone thinks this way, and everyone operates the computer they prefer for their own deeply personal reasons.  For years I've driven Buicks and have been supremely happy with them, but my brother wouldn't dream of owning anything other than a Toyota. 

What crawls up my shorts, however, is the snobbish, sneering attitude of the Mac fanboys.  I don't think they even realize just how obnoxious they are.  Here's a great opinion column that was published in The Guardian a couple of years ago that sums it up well.  I reread it occasionally whenever the noise from the Mac fan community gets a little too much to bear.

[Darwin]

Awesome! Thanks for the link to the Guardian piece, grapeshot  A bit OTT, but I loved it.

Here's a representative quote:

When I sit down to use a Mac, the first thing I think is, "I hate Macs", and then I think, "Why has this rubbish aspirational ornament only got one mouse button?" Losing that second mouse button feels like losing a limb. If the ads were really honest, Webb (the English comedian playing a Mac) would be standing there with one arm, struggling to open a packet of peanuts while Mitchell (the English comedian playing the PC) effortlessly tore his apart with both hands. But then, if the ads were really honest, Webb would be dressed in unbelievably po-faced avant-garde clothing with a gigantic glowing apple on his back. And instead of conducting a proper conversation, he would be repeatedly congratulating himself for looking so cool, and banging on about how he was going to use his new laptop to write a novel, without ever getting round to doing it, like a mediocre idiot.

[rgdot]

Excellent post grapeshot.

If your OS version is a couple of years old, you begin to find that new software won't work with it, forcing you to upgrade.  In the Windows world, you can reasonably expect your OS to last you for the better part of a decade.

I hear that from Mac users once in a while and to me it's almost incomprehensible, I don't mean solely from a technical stand point but from a practical one.

[Darwin]

Excellent post grapeshot.

If your OS version is a couple of years old, you begin to find that new software won't work with it, forcing you to upgrade.  In the Windows world, you can reasonably expect your OS to last you for the better part of a decade.

I hear that from Mac users once in a while and to me it's almost incomprehensible, I don't mean solely from a technical stand point but from a practical one.

-rgdot (November 08, 2009, 06:35 PM)

Agreed. I have OS X 10.4 installed on my iBook (highest OS version I can install on a PPC Mac) and am constantly confronted by software that I cannot update on it or install in the first place because the OS is "too old". grapeshot's first comment:

It has trouble working with some of my peripherals, it occasionally doesn't want to find an external drive, and locks up a surprising amount, requiring a hard re-boot.

-grapeshot (November 08, 2009, 06:15 PM)

Resonates as well, given my experiences maintaining my parents' machine and my iBook. I like OS X enough, but it is hardly more stable than my Windows (2k, XP, Vista 32 bit, 7 64 bit) machines. Granted, I don't have access to a Leopard or Snow Leopard machine, but still...

[grapeshot]

Heh.  It's funny how the ads in the UK seem to have gotten the exact same two types of characters to represent the Mac and the PC, too.  That can't have been a coincidence.  Surely that indicates the universality of the essential difference between PC users and Mac users?

But, to be fair, most Mac users seem entirely satisfied with their machine.  I just happened to be one who disliked it almost from the start.  I've had it for over three years now, and the only use I get out of it for transferring my recorded TV shows to DVD.  Oh, and I use the iTunes store sometimes.  Otherwise I find iTunes to be way overkill for my "not an iPod" personal media player.  Having it on my Mac at least prevents me from having to install iTunes on my PC while occasionally allowing me to see what I might want to buy on iTunes.  (Not that much, usually.  But then, I'm not a kid who needs all the latest releases from all the newest artists.)

I hear that from Mac users once in a while and to me it's almost incomprehensible, I don't mean solely from a technical stand point but from a practical one

I was dumbfounded to discover that new versions of Firefox and OpenOffice won't work on my version of OSX.  I read last year that nearly half of all Mac users still operate Panther, so why no one will make software that runs on Panther is beyond me.  Snow Leopard, which is imminent, won't be able to to run on my "old" hardware.  I think Mac users must have deeper pockets than I do, and can afford to keep upgrading their OS and their computer.  Meanwhile, I keep getting annoying nag messages from both Firefox and OpenOffice that I need to upgrade.  (Every time it makes me gnash my teeth and tear my hair at the loony Catch-22 of it all.  Now... to be sure, over the years, my various PCs have annoyed me, but none of my Windows machines, not even my Vista one, has caused me to gnash my teeth!)

[Darwin]

Oh, and I use the iTunes store sometimes.  Otherwise I find iTunes to be way overkill for my "not an iPod" personal media player.  Having it on my Mac at least prevents me from having to install iTunes on my PC while occasionally allowing me to see what I might want to buy on iTunes.

-grapeshot (November 08, 2009, 06:58 PM)

OMG! That's hilarious - EXACTLY how I feel about being one of the unwashed masses who is content to listen to music on a media player that Steven Jobs hasn't annointed! I also feel the same way about iTunes under Windows - I won't install it or QuickTime - and the use to which I put it on my iBook  

WRT the rest of your comments - I presume that it all comes back to "controlling" the product. By locking out older shareware applications in anything but the most recent versions of OSX, Apple ensures that there are fewer hiccoughs when users try to run older software. It's also probably seen as being a good way to encourage people to upgrade to later OSX releases. Not working if Panther is still as prevalent as it seems.

EDIT: word choice

[Innuendo]

• If your OS version is a couple of years old, you begin to find that new software won't work with it, forcing you to upgrade.  In the Windows world, you can reasonably expect your OS to last you for the better part of a decade.

-grapeshot (November 08, 2009, 06:15 PM)

It seems that in the land of Mac it's not only the forced OS upgrades, but the forced hardware upgrades as well. For example, Windows 7 has just been released & there have been numerous reports of people happily running it on computers that are 4-5 years old or older. I don't believe I have ever heard of a MacOS release that could be installed and run well on a 4 year old Mac.

[Darwin]

I don't believe I have ever heard of a MacOS release that could be installed and run well on a 4 year old Mac.

-Innuendo (November 08, 2009, 11:08 PM)

My little iBook was 4 years old when Tiger was released and about 7 years old when I upgraded it to Tiger. Having said that... it's got 576MB of RAM and a 500Mhz CPU and it is pretty darn slow... painful, actually. I've actually got Office 2008 installed on it but don't use it much because it's unbearably slow. I keep meaning to uninstall it but haven't gotten around to it. My Win2k machine, on the other hand, with 512MB RAM and a 600Mhz CPU is much, much quicker. FWIW, the Win2k machine is a year older than the iBook and runs Office 2007 perfectly. Of course, Win2k and Tiger came out 5 years apart, so not really a fair comparison.

PS Both notebooks have 8MB dedicated video memory (same cards, in fact) 

[Innuendo]

Here's a great opinion column that was published in The Guardian a couple of years ago that sums it up well.

-grapeshot (November 08, 2009, 06:15 PM)

I don't know if I'd call that an opinion column...unless...when you typed opinion you meant to type wild-eyed rant. The author is even a British comedy writer so who knows how much of his words are based in fact and which are just comedic absurdity. Reading the comments to the piece, though, I became painfully aware of the cultural gap there is between the British and Americans. Oh, sure, they argue just as much as Americans do as to whether Macs or PCs are better, but they take it a lot farther and argue quite vehemently over which operating system Dr. Who would use. :: shakes head ::

Now, if you'll excuse me I have to go prepare for my next Mac vs. PC argument. I need to come up with as many reasons as I can why Mr. Spock would use a PC. 

[Innuendo]

My little iBook was 4 years old when Tiger was released and about 7 years old when I upgraded it to Tiger. Having said that... it's got 576MB of RAM and a 500Mhz CPU and it is pretty darn slow... painful, actually.

-Darwin (November 08, 2009, 11:19 PM)

I'm not quite sure how to respond. Should I congratulate you for your accomplishment or express sympathy due to your predicament?

[Darwin]

My little iBook was 4 years old when Tiger was released and about 7 years old when I upgraded it to Tiger. Having said that... it's got 576MB of RAM and a 500Mhz CPU and it is pretty darn slow... painful, actually.

-Darwin (November 08, 2009, 11:19 PM)

I'm not quite sure how to respond. Should I congratulate you for your accomplishment or express sympathy due to your predicament?

-Innuendo (November 09, 2009, 10:29 AM)

  Why not both?! My intent was to illustrate that it IS possible to install the latest Mac OS on a four year old Mac but that doing so doesn't exactly result in a great user experience. I'm pretty sure that my 6 year old XP machine will run Windows 7 just fine, though.

[DFrench]

I was 'close' to switch to a mac just because i work as a webdesigner with adobe products (photoshop, bridge, indesign, illustrator, dreamweaver...).
on the other hand, i was quiet happy with my windows computers, i had even no problems with windows vista ultimate (x64) and i used it from the first days. okay, you had to read a lot but if you used your brain before installing a program, you should not have these big problems you could read in the computer magazins (at least in the german speaking region of europe).
but why i should change... just that i can tell that i'm using a mac?
i think the pc or os-system you run is just as good as the man behind the keyboard... maybe i'm wrong
i have no problems with mac's or their users, everybody can choose what he thinks is the best for him... and when the 'big battle' between windows vs. mac even start's - i visit such sites like zdnet.de, chip.de or pc-magazin.de (where i spend normaly every day some minutes) a bit less.

[JavaJones]

I was 'close' to switch to a mac just because i work as a webdesigner with adobe products (photoshop, bridge, indesign, illustrator, dreamweaver...).

-DFrench (November 09, 2009, 12:04 PM)

This is a common thing I come across and these days I really don't understand it. The entire Creative Suite, well integrated, is available on the PC as well. In fact I hear the latest version - at least of Photoshop - was actually developed with the PC as its primary platform rather than the Mac (obviously it works on both, but there is still usually a "lead SKU"). Also as far as I recall 64 bit Photoshop/Creative Suite was unavailable on the Mac until Snow Leopard, while it was available from day 1 on the PC. So it's really just a very, very outdated myth that Macs are better than PCs for graphic design work and/or Adobe apps.

Anyway thankfully you didn't switch for this foolish notion, since you seem to like PCs anyway.

- Oshyan

[DFrench]

I was 'close' to switch to a mac just because i work as a webdesigner with adobe products (photoshop, bridge, indesign, illustrator, dreamweaver...).

-DFrench (November 09, 2009, 12:04 PM)

Also as far as I recall 64 bit Photoshop/Creative Suite was unavailable on the Mac until Snow Leopard, while it was available from day 1 on the PC. So it's really just a very, very outdated myth that Macs are better than PCs for graphic design work and/or Adobe apps.

-JavaJones (November 09, 2009, 12:44 PM)

it was 4 or 5 years ago i was seriously think about 'switching' to a mac... i had never a problem with the creative suite but in some issue's (till CS3) it was a little better on a mac.

[Paul Keith]

But is it really lock-in? All data on the Mac (save maybe older songs and videos that are DRM'd) can be easily exported. Apple file data formats are pretty open. Most files can be opened on software on other operating systems.

The key is why would you want to because the experience that Apple offers is so much better. Leaving Windows for a Mac was a breath of Fresh Air. The prospect of leaving my mac for something else is nothing but stressful. In fact, I'll leave my Mac when you pry it from my cold dead hands.

I played around with Windows 7 recently and the feeling I got was that it was still windows with the inherent safety issues, viruses, etc. I've not had to worry about a virus in the nearly 5 years since I switched to Mac OS X. No anti-virus subscriptions to pay. No bloatware to clean off the system, it just works.

http://holykaw.allto...-locks-and-loads-you