Author Topic: SQLNotes...what is it exactly? (Read 902569 times)

PPLandry · « **Reply #900 on:** June 04, 2008, 08:16 PM »

@melitabel, aka Elisabeth,

I'm not sure what was wrong with my mail server, but if all else fails, you can try [email protected], a very old email I still use.

re. Screenshots.
You can take anything published. If you want something specific, provide me details.

There was threads here on using SQLNotes for bibiographical references:
https://www.donation...dex.php?topic=4131.0 and
https://www.donation...ex.php?topic=12582.0

Are you needs very different?

SQLNotes can pull data from Firefox Zotero add-in. Would that be of use to you?

Regarding you specific questions:

1. I have tons of screenshots of course... Do you have a specific UI look in mind? Do you want a simple outline, a rich-text outline, an outline with columns, a large rich-text document window, docked or detached and floating ? All those are possible...

As to copyright notice, if you want, but the information is public

2. That statement is perhaps not the one I'm most proud of, as it sound a bit presumptious... The word ideal, is subjective and the definition of information management varies a lot from one person to the next. If you think that this paragraph represents well SQLNotes, I'd like to tone it down just a bit before you use it.

As to citations and company info, you'll find that here:
http://www.sqlnotes....abid/75/Default.aspx and here:
http://www.sqlnotes....abid/79/Default.aspx

Cheers!

cranioscopical · « **Reply #901 on:** June 04, 2008, 08:46 PM »

SQLNotes (will be renamed, to perhaps SliceAndDice or Dimension)
-PPLandry (June 04, 2008, 10:08 AM)
any comments on those names?
anyone?
-tomos (June 04, 2008, 02:12 PM)

FWIW I think SliceAndDice is too unspecific and possibly misleading (too 'kitchen-y'?).
Something along the lines of Data SliceAndDice or Info SliceAndDice gives the uninitiated a clue as to purpose.

PPLandry · « **Reply #902 on:** June 04, 2008, 09:44 PM »

Thinking out load here, What would you users think if the HTML pane was attached to the grid, as opposed to the main window. You'd get
1- multiple instances, one per grid
2- switching between grids would automatically show/hide/position it as required, so a Gantt grid would have none, or one on the bottom, but switching to an EN type grid would have it on the right.

Would that completely replace the current HTML pane, or do you see uses to the current main-window docked one?

Armando · « **Reply #903 on:** June 04, 2008, 11:23 PM »

I was going to bed and just saw that... It seems like a very nice idea. If it doesn't slow down the interface, of course. That also probably means less grid space, and smaller html panes if several grid are opened vertically. So, in a way, the current main-window docked one could still be interesting as an option. Just some quick thoughts.

Edit : still thinking about the name stuff. Really don't know. I've come to like SQLNotes. GordianNotes ?

superboyac · « **Reply #904 on:** June 05, 2008, 10:29 AM »

Thinking out load here, What would you users think if the HTML pane was attached to the grid, as opposed to the main window. You'd get
1- multiple instances, one per grid
2- switching between grids would automatically show/hide/position it as required, so a Gantt grid would have none, or one on the bottom, but switching to an EN type grid would have it on the right.

Would that completely replace the current HTML pane, or do you see uses to the current main-window docked one?
-PPLandry (June 04, 2008, 09:44 PM)

I don't see why anyone should have a problem with this because it does everything the current HTML Pane does, but more. I would welcome the additional flexibility.
One thing I'd like to mention about things that get shown/hidden automatically (including the field pane which can be set to auto-hide). I prefer that the reactions are instantaneous. So, if the html is going to be on auto-hide (or the field pane) I'd rather it pops out as soon as my mouse touches the tab, and disappears immediately after my mouse leaves. No delays. Right now, there is a delay (which seems to be the normal thing for most programs) where the mouse has to sit there for a little bit before the pane pops out. I'm sure some people like the delay, but it just slows things down.
"That's all I have to say about that." [Forrest Gump]

Armando · « **Reply #905 on:** June 05, 2008, 11:46 AM »

Well, the way I see it is that it prevents the pane from popping in whenever you touch the tab by mistake (reduce an autohide toolbar delay to 0ms , and it keeps getting in the way if your mouse happens to travel a bit too far in a direction or another). It could be a user option.

But the popping out could be faster, since that has no real purpose that I can think of.

superboyac · « **Reply #906 on:** June 05, 2008, 11:52 AM »

Well, the way I see it is that it prevents the pane from popping in whenever you touch the tab by mistake (reduce an autohide toolbar delay to 0ms , and it keeps getting in the way if your mouse happens to travel a bit too far in a direction or another). It could be a user option.

But the popping out could be faster, since that has no real purpose that I can think of.
-Armando (June 05, 2008, 11:46 AM)

Yes, it should definitely be an option where the user can specify in milliseconds the pop in and pop out time delay. I've asked for this for years in AutoCAD but they never do it.

PPLandry · « **Reply #907 on:** June 05, 2008, 12:10 PM »

Done! See http://mantis.sqlnot....net/view.php?id=381

Armando · « **Reply #908 on:** June 05, 2008, 12:31 PM »

Cool

superboyac · « **Reply #909 on:** June 05, 2008, 12:41 PM »

Done! See http://mantis.sqlnot....net/view.php?id=381
-PPLandry (June 05, 2008, 12:10 PM)

Wow! FAST!

PPLandry · « **Reply #910 on:** June 05, 2008, 12:45 PM »

18 minutes for implementing a feature request. I can publish a latest build if you really want it.

tomos · « **Reply #911 on:** June 05, 2008, 12:54 PM »

18 minutes for implementing a feature request
-PPLandry (June 05, 2008, 12:45 PM)

PPLandry · « **Reply #912 on:** June 20, 2008, 01:47 PM »

An important update has been released. Download it at www.sqlnotes.net!

JohnFredC · « **Reply #913 on:** June 22, 2008, 10:50 AM »

Hello

I really really want to use SQLNotes because I can see that it does a majority of the data management tasks that I need. However, I can't figure out how to do specific things:

1. Tree/Grid of Grids

The hierarchical grid is great! But in addition to each grid node linking to a gant chart, html document, etc, I need a definable grid as a node's document type a la InfoStore from MHSoftware. Is there a way to do this already? Visualize a tree panel on the left, with some nodes linking to html documents, some to forms, some to gants, and some nodes linking each to "their own" definable grids (or tables, in industry parlance). That way I could easily group individual grids according to an hierarchical logic.

An HTML table doesn't cut the mustard for me.

2. Designation of Foreign Keys.

Is this already possible? For instance, in a parent grid, designate a unique key field. In a related/subordinate grid, designate a foreign key and declare referential integrity between the two. Ideally, the display control for the foreign key on the subordinate grid would be a combo box linking to a (unique) list of the primary key values of the parent grid.

InfoStore doesn't do the linked combobox/primary/foreign key thing, but perhaps SQLNotes can (or might in the future?).

MS Access allows me to do this, of course, but the SQLNotes interface is so nice and has a so much lower overhead, I'd prefer not to re-invent the wheel if possible. Besides, implementing trees in Access is a real pain.

Maybe this stuff is already in SQLNotes and I'm just slow to find it?

Thanks for listening!

PPLandry · « **Reply #914 on:** June 22, 2008, 11:07 PM »

1. The hierarchical grid is great! But in addition to each grid node linking to a gant chart, html document, etc, I need a definable grid as a node's document type a la InfoStore from MHSoftware (...)
2. Designation of Foreign Keys.
Is this already possible? For instance, in a parent grid, designate a unique key field. In a related/subordinate grid, designate a foreign key and declare referential integrity between the two. Ideally, the display control for the foreign key on the subordinate grid would be a combo box linking to a (unique) list of the primary key values of the parent grid.
-JohnFredC (June 22, 2008, 10:50 AM)

Hi,

1. This could be possible (i.e. the components used have this possibility) but it isn't now. Each item in a given grid share a common set of columns. You can simulate this using forms or by using 2 grids.

2. Through inheritance, you can simulate relational tables (à la Access) no problem. However, referential integrity implies that no change is allowed that would break these defined relationships. This goes against the SQLNotes philosophy that items can have any number of user-defined fields. A contact can also have phone call info, task info, etc. That said, through inheritance (values>sub-items in field management), data can be made to look as relational, and MS Access can even generate report as if it came from relational tables. More info on how to do this can be supplied if desired.

Armando · « **Reply #915 on:** June 23, 2008, 12:23 AM »

1. The hierarchical grid is great! But in addition to each grid node linking to a gant chart, html document, etc, I need a definable grid as a node's document type a la InfoStore from MHSoftware (...)
-JohnFredC (June 22, 2008, 10:50 AM)

Would this also imply hierarchical organization of the different Grids? I must say that it would be nice. Some of that was mentioned in mantis issue 150, but could be made as a separate issue.

JohnFredC · « **Reply #916 on:** June 23, 2008, 08:17 AM »

It occurs to me that perhaps I totally misunderstand SQLNotes and the concept of a grid. I have been thinking of the grid as a separate data table.

But more reflection on my part plus that long list of fields in the "field management" dialog now suggest to me that there is actually only one table in each file!

Is each SQLNotes file intended to be a single "flat" data file (table) with each grid being just a defined view into that one table of data? I hope not. Such an approach is very limiting.

Perhaps your goal is to emulate MS Project, which has (or used to have) that architecture.

I mean no harm. SQLNotes is beautifully implemented.

JohnFredC · « **Reply #917 on:** June 23, 2008, 08:28 AM »

Would this also imply hierarchical organization of the different Grids? I must say that it would be nice. Some of that was mentioned in mantis issue 150, but could be made as a separate issue.
-Armando

Currently the SQLNotes grids are shown as a flat list (ie. one level of tabs in the UI). My idea was to show the grids in an hierarchical tree managed by drag and drop.

But see my post above. Such an implementation is essentially meaningless in SQLNotes if all the grids draw from a common pool of fields stored in a single (logically flat) table.

Demo MHSoftware's InfoStore and build a few "list" nodes to see what was I hoping for in SQLNotes.

PPLandry · « **Reply #918 on:** June 23, 2008, 09:23 AM »

InfoStore seems to be what is generally called a 3-pane outliner (as Zoot). SQLNotes is a 1-pane outliner (with an optional 2nd pane) following the steps of defunct Ecco Pro. It can function as a 3-pane outliner when using the properties pane:
1- First pane is the properties pane, where fields are tree nodes
2- Double-click on a field will open items in that field in the ScratchPad, aka the 2nd pane
3- The HTML pane is then the content pane

Now the first pane, could also be simulated with a hierarchical grid list view. As Armando mentioned, this is planned.

As to the concept itself, it is neither 1 table per grid (as this would restrict field assignments), nor a single table per file (as this would be terribly inefficient) and would not work well in a multi-user environment, which SQLNotes does very well.

Armando · « **Reply #919 on:** June 23, 2008, 10:16 AM »

InfoStore seems to be what is generally called a 3-pane outliner (as Zoot). SQLNotes is a 1-pane outliner (with an optional 2nd pane) following the steps of defunct Ecco Pro. It can function as a 3-pane outliner when using the properties pane:
1- First pane is the properties pane, where fields are tree nodes
2- Double-click on a field will open items in that field in the ScratchPad, aka the 2nd pane
3- The HTML pane is then the content pane

Now the first pane, could also be simulated with a hierarchical grid list view. As Armando mentioned, this is planned.
-PPLandry (June 23, 2008, 09:23 AM)

One thing that could probably be added is that there are really several ways of working with SQLNotes, depending on one's habits, aims, project, data at hand, etc. E.g. : Sometimes I use it as a 1 pane outliner (when working with numbers, bits of text data etc.), sometimes as a 2 pane outliner (when working with a lot of text and images), and I keep the properties pane (the third pane) opened... when needed, in all cases. And I often use several grids at once (very often it's the same grid shown in multiple "windows"), tiled vertically, for data comparison and analysis.

As to the concept itself, it is neither 1 table per grid (as this would restrict field assignments), nor a single table per file (as this would be terribly inefficient) and would not work well in a multi-user environment, which SQLNotes does very well.
-PPLandry (June 23, 2008, 09:23 AM)

So there...

JohnFredC : What is it that you'd like to do with your data? Apart from the Grid tree (which Pierre said it could and would be implemented) and the "designation of Foreign Keys" (which can be simulated through field inheritance between items, set in the fields management window: "Value--> sub-items" — I use it all the time), are there other things?

PS: Note that there's a feature which will probably render grid hierarchical organization a bit less necessary than it seems right now: the coming "named filters". Users will be able to name their favorite filter combination and store them for easy retrieval, compounding, and use in all grids. What that means is that instead of having many different grids because of many different filter settings usage (or instead of rewriting filters or filter combination each time one needs new filters — even if there are already convenient ways to do that : alpha numeric filter toolbar + date toolbar), users will be able to store an abundance of different customized filters preset, more or less complex, easily recognizable and usable because of their custom "human" names.

These named filters will, IMO, function a bit as if there was a 2nd level of organization in grids... i.e. : sub-grids, so to speak. Or, in other words, different views of the data sharing the same Grid source.

JohnFredC · « **Reply #920 on:** June 23, 2008, 02:29 PM »

Now I see that sometimes by double clicking (or pressing enter twice...) in a grid cell I can "pick" from a list of all the values previously entered in that column (er, "field"). That's close to what I'm looking for but I need the picklist to come from another (not the same) column! Is that possible?

What does inheritance do?

I prowled around the sndb file a bit. Clever use of queries and tables to abstract a system on top of the underlying Access data model. Not clear on the benefit of doing things in such an indirect manner, though. The SQLNotes schema just adds layers on top of what Access/Jet already does, layers that emulate the existing internal Access "MSys" schema, but with, ultimately, less performance (due to the nested querying required) when ¯fText (for instance) gets very large.

Why not just use native Jet tables, creating new tables, fields, and views when you need them via parameter driven code that builds/executes the appropriate SQL statements. IMHO much more powerful/flexible, and with reduced query overhead, too!

Anyway... water under the bridge.

Thanks for everyone's patience with my posts. I understand SQLNotes much better now.

PPLandry · « **Reply #921 on:** June 23, 2008, 02:53 PM »

>Why not just use native Jet tables, creating new tables, fields, and views when you need them via parameter driven code that builds/executes the appropriate SQL statements. IMHO much more powerful/flexible, and with reduced query overhead, too!

SQLNotes aim is not to compete or replace MS Office apps, but to complement. Some applications are best served with MS Access, some with Excel, some with Word. Some with SQLNotes. Many reasons not to use straight tables:
1- As the data represents a "sparse matrix", this would not be efficient
2- Max of 255 fields in JET 4.0
3- Granularity: changes to invididual cells could not be tracked, dated, by who, etc
4- Multi-user: add/remove fields would require table locks. Record locking would prohibit updates to different cells of a given record.
5- Integrity: file-based databases tend to corrupt data, especially for records with many fields. Having 1 field per record works around this limitation.
6- For large number of fields with sparsely filled records, it may even be faster to do it the SQLNotes way.
7- It is not that different from column-oriented databases: http://en.wikipedia....Column-oriented_DBMS (in particular the Benefits section)
8- I have databases with 30,000 items, 400,000 field values, >200 fields and response times is still excellent event with 8 connected users.
[edit]
9- Much easier search. Searching all occurences of a given text string requires a single SQL query on a single field.
[/edit]

PPLandry · « **Reply #922 on:** June 23, 2008, 02:55 PM »

Now I see that sometimes by double clicking (or pressing enter twice...) in a grid cell I can "pick" from a list of all the values previously entered in that column (er, "field"). That's close to what I'm looking for but I need the picklist to come from another (not the same) column! Is that possible?

What does inheritance do?
-JohnFredC (June 23, 2008, 02:29 PM)

1- No, this is not possible
2- It assigns child items the same value as the parent.

JohnFredC · « **Reply #923 on:** June 23, 2008, 03:16 PM »

Thanks so much for your complete answer to my somewhat snotty (in retrospect) comment.

I think Jet is more efficient with sparse matrices than you give it credit, though.

Regards...

PPLandry · « **Reply #924 on:** June 23, 2008, 03:19 PM »

You are correct that Jet is efficient with sparse matrices. It was only one of the deciding factors, that, and the eventual support for SQLServer (which AFAIK is not efficient with sparse matrices)

I forgot to add in the reasons: much easier search. Searching all occurences of a given text string requires a single SQL query on a single field. [edit] I added it to my previous post for completeness [/edit]