new PC options:-

[tomos]

might go check out Phils recommended forums
Seasonics 500 is twice the 380 price ... (@120€)

If I get something reasonably good now it's well possible I'll upgrade it rather than getting new again

Saw a recommendation for a better mobo ("less problems")
Gigabyte GA-MA69G-S3H
both have onboard graphics which i happy with at the moment anyways

[f0dder]

I ran my AMD64x2 4400+ system with one gig of ram, a bunch of harddrives, and a PCI-e GeForce6600 for quite a while and quite stable on a 400W PSU - but a decent-quality PSU.

As far as I understand, tomos isn't going to be running a SLI configuration or anything (considering that he's considering opting for onboard graphics). A 400W or 450W PSU should be quite sufficient. Heck, if the choice was between a quality 350W PSU or a whatever-cheapo 450+W PSU, I'd opt for the former.

[tomos]

thanks everyone for the help,
this is the current incarnation with 430W PSU - I believe Seasonic have a good reputation so..

CPU Lüfter: Arctic-Cooling Alpine 64
€ 9,-*

CPU Sockel AM2: AMD Athlon64 X2 4400+
€ 89,-*

Floppy-Laufwerke: Teac Diskettenlaufwerk (with card-reader)
€ 24,-*

Netzteile: 430Watt: Seasonic S12II-430HB
€ 74,-*

Gehäuse Midi Tower: Cooler Master Elite RC-330
€ 33,-*

Modem analog: Devolo MicroLink 56K
€ 9,90*

DVD-Brenner SATA: LG GSA-H62N
€ 39,90*

Gehäuse Lüfter: Arctic-Cooling AF12025 Fan L Box
2 x
€ 3,40*
€ 6,80*

Mainboards Sockel AM2: GigaByte MA69G-S3
€ 74,-*

Festplatten 3,5 Zoll SATA: Samsung HD321KJ 320GB
2 x
€ 64,-*
€ 128,-*

Arbeitsspeicher MDT DIMM 2 GB DDR2-800 Kit
€ 96,-*

Rounded figures:
€ 585* + €60 (Cost of Building) = €645 + Versand = €655

you can get a lot of the parts cheaper here, but as I was saying to someone here,
I'm really happy I dont have to build it - it's been complicated enough to get this far!
I'ts nice/great though to get all the advice 
and to have been able to check out a lot of the parts or simply that they have been recommended

gotta check out their guarantee cover monday by phone -
those details can be challenging enough in your native language - trying to wade through them in another, well...
the only way I can be sure of them is ringing up

[Lashiec]

OK, late as always. Damn busy morning. Anyway, 380 W is MORE than enough these days. We're talking about a Seasonic PSU folks, not your 20 € generic PSU. The only thing better than that is a FSP. For tomos' PC, that PSU gave enough power, and he would even had some more for an additional videocard, and some HDDs. Anyway, I'm glad you didn't go for the 500 W model, as you would be burning money.

mouser, the worst thing could happen with an underpowered PSU is that the PC wouldn't start at all, at least with these kind of quality PSUs, with stable voltages and high efficiency. Of course, if you're talking about those unbranded PSUs, well, the computer could burn, the HDDs would fail...

Carol, considering the advances of computing, whenever tomos want to update his setup in the future (a serious update, and a not too far future), he would be better buying another different PSU, not only for power and increased efficiency, and thus a lower bill (the ATX specifications are being updated constantly as lately, so do the minimum efficiency for those PSUs to achieve the certification) but also because the cabling is set to change in the near future. Where you found 4-pin auxiliary +12V connectors, the trend is going to those EPS +12V 8-pin connectors, which used to be standards on server motherboards, and those 6-pin PCIe connectors are being replaced in the high-end spectre with 8-pin ones as well. Not to mention PCIe 2.0 and quadcore that are almost there.

[tomos]

eh, I've run into a small problem,
tried to buy that yesterday but they dont have that particular memory any more,
MDT DIMM 2 GB DDR2-800 Kit
not in 2GB Kit at any rate

heres the link for the 1GB kit:
http://www.alternate...urce2=needed#tecData
but I think thats no good cause it's prob 2x 512 (??)

Maybe I'm naive but I reckon anything with similar pricetag is going to be similar quality -
it's more I'm worried about getting something uncompatible,
of course I guess they'd let me know, but I'm not sure..

For example this one sounds very good if it's compatible:
OCZ DIMM 2 GB DDR2-800 Kit OCZ2SOE8002GK, Special Ops Edition
http://www.alternate...IBIEM5&class=ram

Specs:

Gesamtkapazität: 2048 MB

Anzahl Module: 2

Bauform: DIMM

Typ: RAM-DDR2

Standard: DDR2 - 800 (PC2 - 6400)

Timings:      
CAS Latency (CL):5
RAS-to-CAS-Delay (tRCD): 5
RAS-Precharge-Time (tRP): 5
Row-Active-Time (tRAS): 12

Anschluss: 240-pin

Spannung: 1,9 Volt

Spannungsbereich: from 1,9 Volt to 2,2 Volt

gets 4 stars from everyone..
If that one's okay I reckon I'm sorted!!

If not,
if anyone has the time and/or inclination   
maybe they could look at the list of possibilities & recommend a substitute?
http://www.alternate...source=needed#A-DATA
The first option (MDT DIMM 2 GB DDR2-800 Kit) was €96 - wouldnt want to pay a whole lot more..

[mouser]

i can't speak for different brands or speeds, that stuff is beyond me.
BUT you need to get 2gb of ram (as 2x1gb sticks). do not get only 1gb, it would be a big mistake.

[Carol Haynes]

OCZ is a good make of memory.

Otherwise go for Corsair - it isn't cheap but it is fast and excellent quality with a no quibble lifetime guarantee that works. If you do buy Corsair make sure you read the recommended BIOS settings as they dafault to slower settings than the sticks are rated at - so for maximum performance you have to set the BIOS to use the recommended values.

Crucial is also good budget memory with a lifetime warranty.

Whatever you buy make it clear that two sticks are bought as a pair - some manufacturers (Corsair and Crucial and probably others) actually manufacture Twinned sticks of memory. Mixing DDR memory (even same sizes from the same manufacturer because they can use different chips from various sources in different manufacturing batch runs) have caused me major headaches in the past.

[tomos]

thanks Carol, Mouser
The 2GB OCZ is a "twinned stick" so should be okay.

[steeladept]

The key I have found about memory is (for the average user) to make sure you 1) used matched sets (2x1GB for 2GB of memory, for example), and 2) that you use the correct standard (PC2-6800 for example).  Since these are standard interfaces, the memory for that standard should be compatible.  If it isn't, it is a problem with the memory, not the standard.  My experience is - unless you are making a cutting edge gaming system - OCZ and some of the higher lines of memory are expensive overkill.  These memory chips are aimed at this market, and while they uniformly are great memory chips in their own right, they are designed to be stable during overclocking and have particularly low CAS latency settings.  If these are not too important to you (and for most people it isn't), I suggest a value line such as the Corsair Value.  These are great sticks of memory for normal useage (even for most modern games), and are a lot cheaper.  Lastly, I suggest two other related things.  1) Get the memory from a reputable dealer that will take it back if there is some sort of problem.  2) Stick with brand name memory - Corsair, PNY, OCZ, Patriot, Kensington, etc.  They all tend to have really good quality controls that provide good kits by and large.

[Lashiec]

Also, have some care with those kind of 'enthusiast' oriented modules. This particular one needs 1.9 V for operation, and some motherboards only supply 1.8 V and you can't make them supply more. I don't know if this is the case, but I would ask around just to be sure. Also, to save a few bucks, do what steeladept suggests, search for those Value RAM kits, if you are not going to overclock, it's not worth the extra cost. I'll also throw my support for Kingston brand in this regard.

[tomos]

it's true, I could cry, if it's this complicated even with everybody's help here to even figure out what to put into the machine .. all I can say (again) is I'm bleeding glad I'm not building the fecking thing.
There -
now I feel better, please excise - "excuse" I meant to type that little outburst

Actually part of my problem is I'm kinda stuck with the one supplier cause they're building the thing.
Mostly this okay cause they have quite a good selection - but on the memory front they seem to cater almost completely to gamers who like this overclocking business - so this was actually one of the cheaper memory options!

What I dont really understand is:
according to Wikipedia, 800 is better than 667 & so on down the line - but the prices (at this website anyway,) dont seem to reflect this at all

Looking at mobo specs & same for various memory types was what nearly brought me to tears - they sort of tend to hide all the important details or mobo says abc then memory says xyz

okay,
mobo website (wher I should have looked in the first place) says:

1. 4 DDR2 DIMM memory slots (supports up to 16GB memory)    2. Supports dual channel DDR2 800/667/533/400 DIMMs    3. Supports 1.8V DDR2 DIMMs

that seems fairly clear now 
so I have something to work with!
one from Crucial that says 1.8Volts, but it's only a 533 - €10 euros cheaper @ €86 
a KingstonValue Ram 667 for €94 (not that cheap!) also runs at 1.8V - that sounds like my choice unless anyone else cries NO!?

[wreckedcarzz]

Hi tomos:
As far as PSU:
I had an Intel Celeron D 360 (3.46GHz), 2GB DDR2-4300RAM, an ATi Radeon X1650 Pro (somewhat OverClocked), a 7200RPM Seagate hard drive (the maker escapes me ), a Memorex DVD\CD-RW and a Sound Blaster Audigy SE powered by a 430W Mad Dog Multimedia PSU, and it wasn't cutting it. But I do extra hardcore insane gaming, so I kinda push the limits of everything. It was fine on my Intel Pentium 4 Willamette 1.6GHz, 768MB-DDR RAM, dual Western Digital hard drive, ATi Radeon X1300 setup, but newer computers and hardware (obviously) need more juice.

As far as a GPU (graphics card):
I have had a horrible (personal) experience with nVidia (I have another name for them, but Ill save that for another time ) and I have converted over to ATi 100%- no problems at all (all 4 computers in my house are ATi, no problems at all with them). Including overclocking them (using ATi Overdrive, not the old fashoned way).

As far as CPU:
As I recall, Intel is faster, but AMD has a larger on-board cache. Just depends on pricing and what your needs are, I guess.

RAM:
Photo editing takes lots, and if your going for Vista, a lot more. I use (on boot time with vista) about 28% of 2GB
Get at least 1GB, preferably more if your going to get really large files and lots of programs open.

I can't help much more myself, I haven't moved comfortably into the motherboard market yet, but just make sure that you have what you need, and then some. It always helps to have more then you need, as opposed to needing more then you have!

[Lashiec]

Heh, that's exactly the RAM I'm using (the Kingston one). No problems so far. But I found quite strange you get that OCZ for so little money. It's true that memory prices are low, low, but to see an enthusiast oriented module cheaper than a Value RAM... well... it's o_O. You could as well with the OCZ, but to save 2 € and then find it doesn't work with the motherboard... You don't have other shops to look in, then?

wreckedcarzz, it wasn't cutting it? Was the computer turning off when you launched something demanding?

[wreckedcarzz]

It wasn't cutting it as the graphics were not up to par (lower FPS then expected; to be more specific, like 25-50% loss) because of lack of power (as far as I could tell) and the system was about the same speed as my old 1.6GHz P4

I got a new Ultra X Connect VX 700W PSU now though, and its working great (and I overclocked the card to the max, still no problems)

[steeladept]

Given those specs, I would go with the Kensington you are talking about.  It is good RAM and it is fairly fast (at 667 MHz speed) for your motherboard.  Though I do have to say, you probably couldn't go wrong with either choice, so if cost is an issue, go with the cheaper of the two.

Lashiec - I could be wrong, but I think the difference in price can be defined by the speeds it runs at (533 vs. 667 MHz).  The faster speed means the bus can run faster and, all other things being the same, faster overall functioning.  Now I am not saying you would ever notice the difference, but...

[Lashiec]

Ah, no, I was talking about the OCZ one, which ran at 800 Mhz versus the Kingston Value RAM, who runs at 667 Mhz. OK, it's not cheaper, but the OCZ it's only 2 € more.

wreckedcarrz, could be because of the PSU, that wasn't performing as expected. To tell you the truth, it's the first I hear this "Mad Dog Multimedia" brand. I heard about Ultra X before, though, a bit too modding for me.

[f0dder]

As long a voltage requirements are met and you stick with the right type (ie, DDR-2 vs DDR-1), there shouldn't be problems with sticking a "too fast" stick in a motherboard that can only handle slower, the memory will just run at what the motherboard supports (and will be easier to overclock, if you're into that kind of thing).

I've seen DDR2-800 cheaper than DDR2-667, probably because it doesn't make sense to keep manufacturing DDR2-667 since the faster versions can fit in older motherboards as well... which would cause prices for DDR2-667 to rise as supply runs out. Such are the rules of a market economy, I guess

Btw it does sound like your store has a rather limited amount of options... check out www.shg.dk , to see what a standard online shop in .dk has (yeah, it's in Danish, but you should be able to navigate... and admitted, it's one of the better shops.)

[tomos]

hah!
forgot ye voted against the euro

looks good - much easier to navigate as well,
but the shop here does actually have a very good selection - unfortunately they sort by brand rather than size..
and as I say, it's catering to gamers -

the OCZ gets v.good reviews too
goes from 1.9 to 2.2V
supposed to be best @ 2.0V

I think I'll go with the Kingston though 

[tomos]

Hah - the saga continues!
Tried unsuccessfully to order that PC a few times - (they were out of this or that or the site too busy to navigate properly)

Meanwhile someone recommended a much cheaper site with better system for configuring (if you choose cpu it shows you only compatible mobos, etc. etc.)

So I have a new config. I'm happy with everything - just unsure about graphic card -
I did decide to get a cheap one. (40 to 50euro)

I've heard Graphic cards can be pretty loud -
the rest of the machine is hopefully fairly quiet!
For that price I could get a passively cooled 128MB, or am I worrying unnecessarily?
Would 128MB dedicated card be as good/better than 256MB on board?
(unfortunately they dont offer passively cooled 256MB card in this price range)
Or, of course I could get a 256MB card

Here's the possible list:

Asus gf-7100gs silent, 128mb, nvidia 7100gs, pcie 36,50 €     EDIT: thats the passively cooled one Club3d x1550, 256mb, ati radeon x1550, pci-express 40,35 € Club3d 7300le nvidia 7300le, 128mb, pcie 41,68 € Xfx geforce 8400gs 256mb ddr3, pci-express 43,50 € Asus gf-7300gs td, 256mb, nvidia 7300gs, pci-express 46,60 € Gigabyte gv-nx73g128d nvidia 7300gs, 128mb, pcie 49,72 €

-
Again any recommendations/opinions much appreciated,
tom

EDITED see list

[f0dder]

I'd go with an nvidia card instead of ATI - they tend (these days, GeForceFX series was a bad exception ) to be a bit more quiet than ATI, and I have better experience with NV drivers. Iirc you stated you aren't going to be gaming on the system, so just about anything should do (unless you want to watch HD-DVD or BluRay stuff).

Funny that a 8400gs is cheaper than 7300gs

[Carol Haynes]

Having used ATI for years and recently moved to nVidia I would recommend nVidia simply because their drivers play much more nicely. In the future I will only use ATI cards with ATI base motherboards.

[tomos]

Thanks to all for all your help   

For the record here's what I finally ordered:

CPU: Intel core 2 duo e4400 tray 2048kb, lga775, 64bit 100,60 € Mobo: Msi p35 neo-f, intel p35, atx 90,75 € CPU fan: Arctic freezer 7 pro sockel 775 14,17 € Memory: 2048Mb-kit ddr2 mdt , pc6400/800, cl5 70,91 € Box: Coolermaster centurion5 schw. Cac-t05-uw no PSU 44,49 € PSU: Atx-netzteil corsair vx450w 450 watt 65,00 € Graphic card: ASUS GF-7100GS Silent, 128MB, Nvidia 7100GS, PCIe 36,50 € Harddrives: Samsung hd321kj 320gb serial ata-ii, 7200 upm, 16mb 60,40 € Samsung hd321kj 320gb serial ata-ii, 7200 upm, 16mb 60,40 € DVD burner: Samsung sh-s183l bare schwarz 35,38 € Floppy Laufwerk 1.44 Mb,3.5" Schwarz 4,99 € Sound: Terratec aureon 5.1 Pci 16,40 € Modem: Devolo microl. 56K pci (bulk) pci 11,55 € Building: Rechner - zusammenbau 9,99 € Sum: 621,53 € delivery etc (COD, "Logistikkosten") is €15.66 in total Total: €637.19

from -
hardwareversand.de (they deliver EU wide at any rate if you're interested!):
http://www1.hardware...6_NYDkO5C/1/home.jsp
again,
for the record, they got 8.2 out of 10 in 420 customer reviews at schottenland.de -
so I hope to join the satisfied customer ranks soon

EDIT: in case anyone does want to order there - just to let you know only payment options are credit-transfer in advance or COD which might not be available outside germany

[f0dder]

I've never been too fond of in-advance transfers, a lot of people lost money when half the computer stores in my old town went bankrupt. COD is nice enough, although it usually has a fee...

Anyway, hope the system is going to suit your needs - apparently you won't be assembling it yourself, otherwise I'd have ordered you to take pictures of the process.

[Lashiec]

Well, late as always. You could have go either with ATI or nVidia, I had used the two brands, and no problems at all. The cooling factor is depending on the manufacturer of the card as well. Anyway, good thing you opted for a passive one, as the smaller cards tend to have smaller fans, and smaller fans -> bigger noise

EDIT: I almost forgot. Don't forget about loading that thing with fans (I remember you said you were going to do it, but just as a reminder ). Passive cards can get VERY hot, although Asus had some really good passive models, that got lower temps than actively cooled ones.

[mouser]

looks like a good computer, congratulations